I still cannot help but fight this in my gut. It may be because I was raised believing otherwise. What of Christ saying give unto Caesar? Surely the Roman government was not "good" in the sense that the taxes they collected would certainly be spent for services and goods contrary to God's law?
Yeah, but look at the tax rate compared to now. Historians think it was %4, annually.
Nobody really knows what the current US tax rate is now. 1) It's graduated depending on your income. 2) There are hidden taxes called fees that are often not included in the calculation. 3) There's inflation (which the Fed admitted under oath as being a tax). 4) When businesses are taxed, they just embed it into their prices and pass it on to the consumer.
So really, who could say how much we're being taxed? The original audience of scripture could determine what Caesar owned by looking at the surface of the object and finding his picture on it. We can't do that. Besides, the government presumes to own everything anyway.
"... if you’ve got a business—you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen ..."
As for KJV, I just like to take it off the table for people who bring it up. People who are bugged by KJV don't typically point to its use as a flaw to the discussion.
We pat little kids on the head when they do things they shouldn't. I don't think the Gospel was compromised by roman taxation. I think it is seriously compromised now.
This seems inconsistent. If something is wrong it does not scale into right. Still, I have always said there has to be some practical limitations i.e. pragmatism...it is just that we are usually on opposite sides of that discussion.
Christ did not give to Caesar. When confronted by the religious leaders of the day in an attempt to trip him up, Jesus said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's but to God the things that are God's." This begs the question, "What belongs to Caesar?" Does Caesar own whatever he happens to claim, or is he a thief and a robber?
BTW, Jesus said this after someone produced a coin with Caesar's face on it... the key question here is "What belongs to God?" Whose image and inscription is on every human being? In Whose image is man made? To Whom does every man belong? If I belong to God, what does that leave for Caesar to claim?
I disagree with your conclusions for a few reasons, although am still giving you an upvote because I like your discussion and want to promote it further.
The reason I disagree with you is this. Jesus did not live a sinless life, die on the cross, and defeat death so that He could start a revolution. When Jesus was arrested Peter attacked one of the soldiers and cut off his ear. Jesus performed a miracle and reattached the man's ear. Jesus was not about violence or revolution. "Give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's" is all about respecting authority where it is deserved. When we respect those that are put in charge of us we are showing them the love of God; whether that be our boss, our parents, or our government.
I think the true issue here is our inability to understand God's ways. If all power exists because God gave it, then why did Hitler rise to power? That would seem entirely counter-intuitive to the goals of God. However, Israel was given back their land as an result of the holocaust. Atrocities are often used by God for great blessings.
All great points. I agree that the Gospel is the highest priority. Revolutions are a distraction. But would you agree that any authority that directly hinders the spread of the Gospel is something to resist?
Keep in mind that Nebuchadnezzar was God's instrument even though he was not a believer (most of his life).
Yet Jeremiah, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego all obeyed and faithfully served him except when his orders contradicted God's.
Come to think of it... Every single country that has disobeyed Heavenly Father, has been laid in ruins. Therefore we shall be awake and aware to keep the ten commandments and do/not do to others what we want/dont want others to do to us. The prophecies speak of a time liken to Sodom & Egypt, symbols of Sexual Slavery. Watching News from USA, see that men are being forced into women clothes because that is the "political correct" now. Going against the natural was the warning in a broad sense, been seeing these changes creep onto society for a while. Keep your candle lit.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
I still cannot help but fight this in my gut. It may be because I was raised believing otherwise. What of Christ saying give unto Caesar? Surely the Roman government was not "good" in the sense that the taxes they collected would certainly be spent for services and goods contrary to God's law?
Ok a secondary note, why use the KJV? Ever?
Yeah, but look at the tax rate compared to now. Historians think it was %4, annually.
Nobody really knows what the current US tax rate is now. 1) It's graduated depending on your income. 2) There are hidden taxes called fees that are often not included in the calculation. 3) There's inflation (which the Fed admitted under oath as being a tax). 4) When businesses are taxed, they just embed it into their prices and pass it on to the consumer.
So really, who could say how much we're being taxed? The original audience of scripture could determine what Caesar owned by looking at the surface of the object and finding his picture on it. We can't do that. Besides, the government presumes to own everything anyway.
As for KJV, I just like to take it off the table for people who bring it up. People who are bugged by KJV don't typically point to its use as a flaw to the discussion.
So if the tax rate were low enough we should just pay it even if it is not used appropriately?
We pat little kids on the head when they do things they shouldn't. I don't think the Gospel was compromised by roman taxation. I think it is seriously compromised now.
This seems inconsistent. If something is wrong it does not scale into right. Still, I have always said there has to be some practical limitations i.e. pragmatism...it is just that we are usually on opposite sides of that discussion.
Christ did not give to Caesar. When confronted by the religious leaders of the day in an attempt to trip him up, Jesus said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's but to God the things that are God's." This begs the question, "What belongs to Caesar?" Does Caesar own whatever he happens to claim, or is he a thief and a robber?
BTW, Jesus said this after someone produced a coin with Caesar's face on it... the key question here is "What belongs to God?" Whose image and inscription is on every human being? In Whose image is man made? To Whom does every man belong? If I belong to God, what does that leave for Caesar to claim?
I disagree with your conclusions for a few reasons, although am still giving you an upvote because I like your discussion and want to promote it further.
The reason I disagree with you is this. Jesus did not live a sinless life, die on the cross, and defeat death so that He could start a revolution. When Jesus was arrested Peter attacked one of the soldiers and cut off his ear. Jesus performed a miracle and reattached the man's ear. Jesus was not about violence or revolution. "Give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's" is all about respecting authority where it is deserved. When we respect those that are put in charge of us we are showing them the love of God; whether that be our boss, our parents, or our government.
I think the true issue here is our inability to understand God's ways. If all power exists because God gave it, then why did Hitler rise to power? That would seem entirely counter-intuitive to the goals of God. However, Israel was given back their land as an result of the holocaust. Atrocities are often used by God for great blessings.
All great points. I agree that the Gospel is the highest priority. Revolutions are a distraction. But would you agree that any authority that directly hinders the spread of the Gospel is something to resist?
I think the question is how you resist it. Paul in a prison cell was a far cry from revolution.
you possess world of management theory?
you possess global management theory?
Keep in mind that Nebuchadnezzar was God's instrument even though he was not a believer (most of his life).
Yet Jeremiah, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego all obeyed and faithfully served him except when his orders contradicted God's.
Come to think of it... Every single country that has disobeyed Heavenly Father, has been laid in ruins. Therefore we shall be awake and aware to keep the ten commandments and do/not do to others what we want/dont want others to do to us. The prophecies speak of a time liken to Sodom & Egypt, symbols of Sexual Slavery. Watching News from USA, see that men are being forced into women clothes because that is the "political correct" now. Going against the natural was the warning in a broad sense, been seeing these changes creep onto society for a while. Keep your candle lit.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.