What keeps you from using your daily free downvotes?
Please use the opportunity to further elaborate on your answers. I'm very interested in your opinion. I will distribute a total of 5 SBD among the most insightful comments on the matter. Thank you!
- I find it already difficult enough to allocate my daily quota of upvotes.
- It takes too much time for me to find posts where I consider a downvote to be appropriate.
- Disagreeing with too high rewards just isn't mine.
- I'm certain it would be the right thing to do, but using them just feels so unpleasant.
- I would, but I'm afraid of retaliatory downvotes.
- Downvotes are fundamentally wrong.
- Free downvotes? I didn't know there was such a thing.
- Other reasons (please explain)
Answer the question at dpoll.xyz.
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I'm not a confrontational person. I think downvotes are important as a corrective to some abuses, just as I think a police force in necessary in society. But I make a terrible police officer. It would ruin Steem for me to get involved in disputes. This is irresponsible, leaving the policing to others, but each of us has to operate in our comfort zone. So I try to do other good things on the platform. I guess that's a combination of several of your options.
Thank you for your comment.
First of all, I can relate very well with how you feel. At this stage of the adoption of #newsteem it still often is an unpleasant experience to disagree with rewards towards the lower end. And I can understand if someone decides to not get exposed to the disappointment, the dispute and sometimes the rage that gets triggered thereby. But what to do if one is convinced that the reward allocation can't be a one-way road towards higher payouts. And that the absence of downvotes would immediately bring back the broken economy where one could send 1 Steem to an address just to get a guaranteed 1.15 Steem back. We have been there, it wasn't viable.
Having said that, you really should continue using Steem as it feels right and enjoyable for you. We will get nowhere if Steem can't be the place for exactly that for most of it's users. In the best case, however, distributing and receiving downvotes will not be anything that will interfere with the pleasure of beeing a Steemian, but will be part of the normal experience.
Hi Shaka
Thank you for that clear explanation. I respect the good intentions and rationale behind New Steem. Thanks for understanding my way forward here. I hope the next few months bring a resurgence in activity and renewed confidence in the platform. I'm certainly going to try and be a positive influence in my small corner of the Steem universe.
Thank you, @shaka!
I'd be fine with a police force.
Moderators/witnesses downvoting makes sense to me, but there should be some kind of transparent appeals process.
What we have now is VIGILANTISM.
In other words, SCHOOL-YARD-BULLIES.
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Hello @shaka :)
This is an interesting discussion to have. It's nice to have the opportunity to talk about downvotes and read the position of others here on your comment feed.
I could address each of the points you raised, but I decided to go for a brief (er) reply, elaborating only on those aspects I find more relevant for me.
I find it already difficult enough to allocate my daily quota of upvotes.
When spending time on the platform, I prefer to encourage those community members who enjoy blogging and are dedicated to what they do here, than to punish those who don't. I suppose it's because it's also beneficial for me. For example, I get to read interesting write-ups, learn new things, get to see cool artworks and so forth.
Downvotes are fundamentally wrong.
I don't think downvotes are fundamentally wrong. But, free-downvotes are. Punishment that comes with no cost to the 'punisher' paves the way for vindictive behaviour. If a group puts a punishment system in place, it must be one that comes with a cost to that who punishes (especially on a community like Steemit). Than, it is more likely that it will be carried out for the greater good of the group (altruistic punishment), than just as a mere act of vengeance.
Hi Abigail,
thank you for joining the poll and for sharing your take on the matter.
Your judgement on allowing free downvotes appears logical under your premise that they are an instrument of punishment. My understanding of downvotes, however, is fundamentally different. Let me try to explain.
Downvotes express the request of a stakeholder to correct the current proposal for the reward of a contribution. Just like an upvote does. When someone hits the publish button on Steem, the community of stakeholders is called to review and modify a constantly changing proposal for the reward of that post. This review goes on over a period of 7 days and it deals with nothing else but a proposal. There is nothing to give, nothing to take, nothing to reward, nothing to punish. It’s just collecting stake-weighted input to come up with a final consensus on what the actual payout should be. No one should feel entitled to receive what a proposal suggests at any time within this 7d period. Because it’s subject to change until it’s final.
Now, to engage in this review stakeholders have only three possibilities to express their view. Upvote, Downvote and No vote. And now I get to the point. What happens to this review if one expression comes at a cost while another doesn’t? In other words, how will the outcome of this review change if one as to pay for saying „less“ while getting payed for saying „more“. No way this could work out. And we were all able to convince ourselves for a long time that it didn’t.
Even now after the introduction of the EIP these three ways to engage in the reward proposal review are incentivized differently, since only one of them offers curation rewards. Still, taking away at least the penalty on the downvote has gone a long way towards improving reward evaluation and thus content discovery.
Reintroducing a cost on downvotes will again take them out of the set of expressions we have in said review and would turn our shared community pool back into the self-service shop it was for a too long time.
Needless to say that the above is all my personal take on the matter. Thanks again for sharing yours.
(I take the liberty of tagging a few of the other commenters here, since what I wrote here might be an adequate response to their input too.
@don-t @roleerob @xpilar @ianballantine @flysky @siphon @wulff-media @purplealyss @cflclosers @lighteye @gamemods @suntree @agmoore @gunnarheilmann)
Good afternoon @shaka,
Thank you for taking the time to share your views here with me/us :) I found it very insightful and it has definitely provided me with a different angle from which to approach this topic.
Best,
Abigail.
I should have used one on your post here, which is (at the time of my looking at it) totally overvalued already. However, who am I to piss on 270+ people who have decided that your post is worth something to them. So here is your answer: I reject downvotes on principle, because they spread nothing but negativity. If I don't like something I move on and upvote something else. Live and let live.
If by some miracle I should get a share of those 5 SBD for my "great insight" I ask you to donate it to whichever charity you deem worthy. Perhaps as a last hoorah to @nosdos which was ruined by the current downvote culture...
Hi Folker
Thanks for showing up and commenting!
If you consider this post to be overvalued I'd like to encourage you to downvote it accordingly. And don't assess longer as you usually do before you upvote a post wich you consider undervalued. I would take your downvote as nothing else but another stakeholder exerting his influence on how to allocate from our shared reward pool. Steem won't have a sustainable economy if there isn't a sufficient number of stakeholders who assume their ownership of the Steem inflation and actively manage its distribution based on their subjective judgement. Having the possibility to counter the assessment made by others is inevitable to make all of this work, no matter how many stakeholders came to an assessment different from yours. If you just move on to upvote another post it means that you limit your influence to distribute what others left for you to distribute.
If you are interested you can read more about my view on downvotes in my reply to Abigail. I took the liberty to tag you there.
I consider it overvalued, not worthless. So I gave you a token +1%, if I remember correctly. A recent post of @therealwolf I had found vastly overvalued and abusive to boot, so he got -100% including an explanatory comment. I understand how it works. BTW, he told me to get a life or something and proceeded to mute my comment into oblivion, like I was any old troll. Win some, lose some...
I know that and trust it. In fact, I honestly believe that many "old" Steemians would see it exactly the same way, a few assholes notwithstanding. To me, the revenge downvotes per se are not the big problem, but I reject downvoting on principle as I don't like negativity.
If I don't upvote a post it's a judgement on my part that said post is worthless to me and only to me. I don't feel I have a right to take away from those who upvoted the post, i.e. they found it valuable to them. I consider the logic behind downvoting re. shared pool, sustainability, re-allocation, etc. utterly flawed. If it were such a good thing it would be self evident and didn't have to be defended tooth and nails by those who advocate it.
Example: If I see a beggar in the street I don't give them any money. Here in Germany, this person only needs to go to the welfare office and will be helped generously, probably that very day. So I don't attribute any social value to this person's begging and have better ideas how the money in their hat should be used. However, I don't punch them in the face, tell them what worthless human trash they are, and proceed to steal their hat with the cash to "reallocate" it. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT DOWNVOTES. (Not the nuissance-troll-asshole ones, those are best ignored.)
An aside: I'm not that heartless. I DO give money to street musicians because I appreciate their performance (upvote!) and to beggars with dogs, because they have a hard time getting help in homeless shelters or finding social housing with the animal. (Hence the passion re. @nosdos.) Anyway, different subject...
If Steem is not sustainable without downvotes maybe there shouldn't be a Steem. (Cases of outright plagiarism, reward pool rape, etc. notwithstanding.) That greed is a problem is also well established. Funny, the greedy ones often are the biggest downvote advocates... I feel that sustainability could be reached if we came to a culture where upvotes, especially big ones, aren't given so easily and downvotes the weapon of last resort to combat outright abuse.
I understand the sustainability issue somewhat, thanks to @penguinpablo (the data guy) who was nice enough to explain it to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't need to rehash that stuff. I don't like the current culture here, and I'm on my way out because #newsteem took away the "visibility on demand" that was valuable to me, without providing an adequate replacement.
@wulff-media Some accounts with high SP seem to exist only to use their power to heavily downvote those they hate (for whatever reason) - and one (or more, like maybe same guy with several accounts) I am aware of seems to be a stalking troll who does not post himself at all, but just uses his big SP to downvote. Giving haters (that can afford to invest large amounts in Steem) that much power without any kind of checks and balances can also damage this platform.
The incidences of heavy weighted downvotes I am aware of are seemingly politically (and perhaps also racist) motivated actions by one (or more?) ultra-right-wing actors.
... It takes too much time for me to find posts where I consider a downvote to be appropriate ... this is almost the answer ... because is no so much matter of time ... is more a difficulty to decide that something deserves a downvote ... even if I see something that is overrated in my opinion, then at the second look, I start to think that if somebody really likes this kind of stuff - well, let it be ... the only posts I will gladly and with no problem downvote are the ones with clear plagiarism ... but I didn't come across one of those yet ... and I have a bit a problem of time in general, there is always something to do and I don't explore contents of Steemit as I would like to because I'm obsessed with daily posting, so there is not much time left to explore other people's work ... maybe in winter that will be possible ... if it will be a winter this year :) for now, it is just a strange extended summer with shorter days ...
Hello @shaka, this is an interesting question.
Before I answer, I want to say that the availability of free downvote is a very good thing in my opinion. even more so at the current steem condition. downvote needs to be done for those who abuse. such as copy paste on posts, and for those who continue to rape the pool of steem prizes.
before the harfock, I saw many users who raped the steem prize pool. in a day they made so many posts. and they also don't vote for others. they only vote for themselves.
of course this will make steem more hurt. and after the harfock, they were turned off and now stopped raping the prize pool.
now only 1 user remains who continues to rape the steem prize pool. he has considerable strength. until now the journey is very smooth. there hasn't been a single whale that has given him a downvote.
and now downvote is also done for users using bid bot services. I totally agree with this. Unlike before Harfock, only a few words users can place their posts on trending. in my opinion it really looks like rubbish.
In my opinion, the reason for free downvotes is to make prices better. and prevent unqualified posts from getting high marks.
however, it's a pity, now downvote is not only for those who cheat. but downvote is also used to limit the amount of payment posts. I totally disagree with this. in my opinion this is the same as taking the rights of others who have painstakingly made quality posts.
what makes me not use downvote every day?
I am happy with the availability of free downvote, and I really want to do it with cheating users. but I did not dare. The reason is because I have very little strength. for another reason, I'm afraid of revenge.
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I'm glad you're asking these questions @shaka
I hope you get many answers for this is something everyone should make their opinion on in the community on this platform.
I am not opposed to red flags / downvote if they are just used properly, but I believe that a warning should first be in place with a yellow flag that describes the problem of fighting spam / plagiarism and fraud.
In my 3 years at steemit I have given many a warning and explained where I do it. Several of them did not realize it was wrong and have thanked for it afterwards for guidance and some of them have also become my friends here at Steemit. It is useful to talk to people, not just give them a flag / dwonvote and then they just sit there as a question
We must be able to teach to others before we punish, so that everyone gets a chance to grow on this platform
Some of the ugliness that happens here is now revenge with flag / downvote
Small accounts are also downvote for no reason because of many other small accounts that are only active when down voting.
Am afraid someone has a different agenda than what flag / downvote is meant for. Looks like they don't want new Steemit accounts
I think all this has to be done in a more correct way, as we are now creating a huge war on the platform and more and more are becoming enemies instead of friends
My suggestion for the next Hardfork is
The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.
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I will elaborate on my vote in comments on your post.
Well ... Great, I did not know how dpoll works obviously. I have written my comment further down ...
#sbi-skip
Wenn es wirklich was downzuvoten gibt dann bin ich dabei und habe auch schon wie gestern das letzte mal geschehen.
Resteemed :-)
I noticed the retaliation rate is just disturbingly high here. I think this is one of the most common reasons why people don´t use their free downvotes. Some accounts are close to quitting because of the retaliatory downvotes they have been getting.
Thank you for commenting.
You are certainly right that the fear of revenge is what keeps many Steemians from using downvotes at this point in time. You may probably agree though, that this is just a numbers game. The broader DVs are used the lower the risk of receiving them in return. Minnows and dolphins play a critical role in diluting the effect of reciprocal DVs. But yeah, it remains being difficult to ramping this up since those who start will indeed take the burden of retaliation up on them until enough others follow.
Exactly. I totally agree with your points. I also understand, however, that people who post regularly (and thus have a lot of stuff to be targeted by potential revenge downvotes) and who rely on their Steem earnings to some extent, don´t want to get involved in downvote skirmishes as it can get them in some serious troubles.
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I don't downvote for the exact same reasons I don't go around taking money out of other people's TIP-JARS.
Some people think I don't deserve upvotes.
I think some other people don't deserve upvotes.
In the exact same way,
Some people think my business doesn't deserve money.
I think some other businesses don't deserve money.
But that doesn't mean I can walk into their store and take money out of the register and redistribute (via reward-pool) it to other businesses.
I don't see the point, that i have to search for it. If there is a reason for me to downvote someone, i will do it. LGG
I use mine - but find that I don't always have the time to do it before I get to 100%. Sometimes I vote down further.
Same here.
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I don't feel good downvoting posts. Some people might already be trying very hard to come up with a post. And to downvote that is cruel. If you don't like the post, just don't upvote it. Move up.
On the other hand, if the post was by some whale and if I were to downvote it, they might retaliate. So, it doesn't make sense to invite this kind of trouble. Same thing as before - if you don't like the post, don't upvote. Just move along.
At the end of the day, we are all different. We are all on here to mine some steem, and maybe make a like-minded friend or two. So, let us all do what we can, and let others do what they can.
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I already spend a lot of time on STEEM, seeking good undervalued posts to upvote and doing my own blogging. I do not have time to look at people who have high rewards already to decide if I think they are undeserved.
I have looked at some of the posts about people downvoting and see minefields of people I mostly do not know using the f word and making nasty comments to each other. I do not want to be a part of this. Who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy?" I do not have the knowledge to know the difference.
I think founders and community needs to find solution to make steemit better community
Real decentralized coin
This is to much exposure to public to get a feeling that steemit is actually centralized and negatively controlled community on crypto scale.
Lets find solution together
Thank you for commenting. I think a possible solution has been rolled out with the last HF. It remains open whether enough stakeholders will adopt the new possibilities that were given. I tagged you in a reply I made earlier in this thread. This may help explaining my general view on the topic.
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The purpose behind preventing inappropriately high payouts is understandable, but those who have used this dubious system (Bit Bots) on a large scale are now also large players on the Steem.
I think that the downvote behaviour of many steemians since HF21 has shown that it is especially used for revenge and unfounded purposes.
There are certainly other ways of keeping posts under control, which used Posts exploitively or for extremist opinion-forming.
The Free Downvotes are a power retention system for those who have made it this far to belong to the big ones.
Small accounts cannot use downvotes without the danger of completely destroying their own account.
One should find a positive solution where perhaps quality of the post is separately evaluated and thus a weighting of the monetary votes is made.
So, my suggestion would be to introduce 2 ways to vote, one to rate the quality (depending on the length of the text it should be usable only after a certain time) and one to present the monetary support.
If no evaluation of the quality is made (not read) the quality is weighted with the minimum and thus the payout is reduced.
Hi @siphon
Thank you for your comment. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the number of thoughtful responses to this post and I'm not able to catch up with adequate replies to each of them. To explain my view on the matter I thus need to refer to the replies which I made earlier in this thread.
Thank you!
Hi Shaka, an interesting concept, thanks for asking this curly question!
If people go out of their way to take the time to write a blog and post that, or they comment on another blog, we downvote? I upvote regardless of a person's stature here on Steem.
There is already too much negativity in the world. I like to remain positive and I hope by at least not downvoting, I remain neutral. I hope readers will see my upvote as a way of rewarding engagement.
When you paddle out to surf, and get ready to jump on to the best wave, then someone says "my wave get off", time to sell your board and walk away. Do we really want that disengagement here, on Steem?
Maybe we need a new Steem tribe: depressme!
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Trending page looks pretty fine nowadays, bid bots switched to manual curation. There are way less posts that deserve to be downvoted and as I mentioned a few minutes earlier...it seems like everyone is obsessed with it lately...
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I try to use my downvotes only on posts that needs it. The two posts I've downvoted is mostly to punish wrong use of the introduceyourself tag. I see the downvote like a punishment : if you don't follow the rules, we'll punish you. That's also why I always comment to tell why I've downvote.
On the other side, the votes are only a reward for the best posts of steemit. That's also why I don't upvote too many posts. Or I use my upvote to help my community grow as we, cosplayers, aren't a lot active on steemit. If people see that there's cosplayer that start to gain some decent rewards, it will maybe lead to a new account.
I hope my comment will help !
While I understand the need for downvotes I simply don't want to participate. I will only downvote hate speech and blatant abuse of the reward system. I get downvotes all the time from accounts that were created after the fork and have 15 sp. It's annoying. It doesn't hurt me financially but it is just random downvotes from ghost accounts. Imagine how scary that is for new members who are trying to find their voice here to get downvoted for no reason. I have long thought, while there is a need for downvotes, that it would be abused by the community and hurt growth. Revenge flagging needs to calm down and random downvoting for no reason has to stop before I could feel comfortable being a part of that system.
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If someone is wrong or there is another reason, then you can tell it to him. I don't like punishment. Some have stopped because they were constantly downvoted. It hurts these people. And the wales have the most power and many are then not visible and cannot recover at all. And from acts of revenge even particularly good contributions are downvoted
The only things I'm used to downvote are phishing links, scams (real ones not the ones people yell at when they don't like a project), identity theft (like posting the work of an artist and pretending to be that person), etc. In other words, publications made with the general aims of a con artist.
I don't know how daily free dowvotes work (how many an account gets, how the weight is calculated, if it uses SP, RC, or else) and even if I did, I don't think I would change my DV habits
Adressing what I sense was the spirit of changing the rule, I guess I could say that I've never felt enough concern with Steem pool's tragedy of the commons. And I would bet most other small users don't either, but the higher the stakes of a Steemian gets, the higher the interest in having a healthy ecosystem.
I've chosen:
I'm not using none of my daily 2.5 free downvotes. Because I'm already pretty old to keep pretending try to correct the world and sweep all its inexhaustible shit inside a massive black hole light years away at the borderline of other dimensions.
In my surfeited binnacle, it is already written that those ideals are now just left for the SJW youngsters who dunno anything better.
Yep! I am so old that I even didn't bother to cast my vote in Dpoll. LoL
Waaaaas, schon wiedee nen Downvote, diesmal 100%, oh Mann😳 Ich möchte von den Votes ja bald leben können😂😂😂
Also ganz ohne Ironie wünsche ich uns allen, dass Dein Stake gross genug ist, um irgendwann einmal davon leben zu können. So unwahrscheinlich ist das vielleicht gar nicht, aber wohl kaum mit Hilfe Deiner Posting-Rewards, sondern viel eher durch einen entsprechenden Kursanstieg des Steems.
Und dem Steempreis wäre es meiner Ansicht nach zuträglicher, wenn 100 User für ihre Einzelbildposts regelmässig 8 ct einfahren, statt ein Einzelner das 100fache...Das wäre zumindest meine These. Wie siehst Du das?
Grüsse,
Shaka
Da geb ich dir vollkommen Recht, aber ein bischen Ironie muss schon sein, oder?
Ich hab auch gar kein Problem, dass du mich downvotes! Aber ein bisschen muss ich dich halt schon kitzeln😉
Und mit den 100 Usern bin ich auch bei dir!
Lg Tom
Ps: Wünsche dir noch einen schönen Tag, bis zum nächsten Downvote🤗
I recently joined @pharesims downvote trail (@curangel), so I now use my free downvotes. Retaliations have so far been quite minor (a few cent here and there).
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I don't always have the time to find enough for my 2.5 DV's per day. I do flag when I can and quite often get shit for doing it like yesterday's episode.
Explaining time and time ago is annoying and sending them the bidbotophant often gets their backs up.
This is the Bidbotophant link, I'm sure you have seen it.
Despite what it says, I have up-voted your post :)
Thank you for commenting.
I can relate to that. I think it's mainly because one tends to question the distribution of a downvote much more critically than that is the case with an upvote. And this questioning takes time. Ideally, a downvote should be as easy to distribute as an upvote. But I don't know how realistic it is that we will ever get there.
I know of course the Bidbottophant. Poor guy lost his eye already. I have to say though that for me vote buying still as place in #newsteem. Main point for me is that that vote buying has to come at a cost. Like the word buying does imply. And furthermore, that it is understood that buying votes for a post simply increases the likelyhood that more stakeholders will disagree with the rewards of that post towards the lower end.
As you can see by 'my other reply', I get this often. I have nothing against 'don-t' but expecting a return from a bought vote should no longer be considered 'the thing'.
Yes. buying is still has a place, poster can always deny themselves rewards if they want to advertise and appear on Trending.
Nothing - I use them 😅
I should have putten that up as an additional answer. I hope that at some point this will become the norm, but no doubt, it's still a long way to go.
Resteemed, because I think it's a good question that affects the ecology of the platform.
Thank you!
Other reasons
Stopped for now after receiving some pms asking why i downvoted. I can stand asking on steem but i really dislike pms
Everyone hates PMS
I can well relate to that. I haven't found the option to globally restrict PMs to direct contacts on Discord. In the absence of that I don't respond to them most of the times. But it remains kind of unpleasant having sitting them in your inbox unanswered.
maybe can set only receive msg from friends but then again it’s good to keep an open discord.
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Thank you for participating in the poll.
As for the last bullet, you may agree that the risk for receiving retaliation is simply a numbers game. The broader DVs are used the lower the risk of receiving them in return. Minnows would play a critical role in diluting the effect of reciprocal DVs.
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If it interests you, this might be a good starter to learn more about the economic changes that were introduced not long ago.
As I don’t have nazis or morons in my feed and seldom read out of my filter bubble - why would I downvote shit? 😂
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May I introduce you to this tool:
https://flags.dpoll.xyz/
;)
lol
hello , thanks for your infomation
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I very rarely downvote, and if I do, I mostly downvote spam/scam and other abusive comments.
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Never thought downvoting is fun. I search for the positive content, bad one doesn’t interest me, and yes… I think downvoting is a fundamentally wrong idea. But let’s save it for the text about the “perfect platform”, shall we?
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Downvotes allow whales to manipulate the reward system (especially in tribes) for their own benefit. These same whales also use this functionality to "bully" small accounts on a daily basis.
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My vote is basically worthless and I'm not willing to expose myself to potential retaliation over a penny flag. Also steem is a game and I'm not interested in making judgements on a lawless platform. I'm not here for the money flags aren't going to save steem from obscurity or fix the platforms well deserved bad image..
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