@intelliguy
I am prone to excessive verbosity, so brought the discussion here, so as not to impose further on @intelliguy's post. He stated he was done, and I still seek further criticism.
I am frustrated with the lack of substantive criticism from those that claim reason to oppose my thoughts.
For the meat of his post, his blog is only a click away. Here's some of our discussion:
He points out in the OP that you can have more views than upvotes, and that it was 'leeching' that folks didn't upvote. I respond:
"I feel obligated to point out that the vast majority of Steemers are minnows. We only get to make 10 votes a day before we deplete our VP so much that it won't recharge the next day. This dramatically limits our ability to upvote posts. It isn't 'leeching' intentionally, if they read and even enjoy your post, but simply need to conserve their VP so that it will recharge.
As, unfortunately, I am. I assure you, I am far more offended by the fact that I cannot simply vote for what I like than you are by my not tossing you an upvote. Before I read the white paper and learned about VP recharging, I cast about ~130 votes/day. I'd do that today, if I had the VP curve that would let me."
He responded:
"Well gee, you ARE a valued customer. :) One suggestion: minnows was an early term, that is now taboo. It's small fry or small fish eaten by dolphins and whales. New users should never be considered a minnow. They are simply steemians. Try to avoid the term minnow. We're trying to not say it anymore even if it is prevalent everywhere. 130 votes/day is too much(.) 13 votes/day until you build up your SP is plenty."
Which sorta triggered me =p:
"
"130 votes/day is too much
"13 votes/day until you build up your SP is plenty."
I strongly disagree (BTW, it is actually 10 votes/day. Your 13 votes is 30% more than I get to cast daily. 3 votes is 30% of my daily allowance.). Being limited to ~10 votes/day is being limited to interacting with but a fraction of the people I desire to interact with. This strongly inhibits my ability to grow my SP by developing reciprocal relationships with creators of content I find valuable, and who might find mine valuable. Reciprocity is a strong social motivator, and a robust mechanism driving the value of social networks.
Being limited to ~10 votes/day also contributes heavily to selfvoting, particularly for new accounts that have visibility limitations due to not having established an audience, and lacking understanding that using their votes to gain visibility is far more beneficial than trying to selfvote themselves more SP. HF19 decreased the votes available to the poor by 400%, while during the time HF19 was being developed, the number of posts increased by 1000%.
This is a vote desert for new accounts, and much of the desperation evidenced by those new accounts for follows and upvotes is a direct result of the 4000% fewer votes available per post (for accounts without a slider - the vast majority of accounts), as is the pandering to whales, and casting of votes on trending posts by authors that consistently trend, as curation rewards are substantial if one can get in on such a post early.
Why do you think that ~100 votes a day is too much? YOU have ~100 votes/day. Do you feel oversupplied? Do you feel that having those votes makes you a danger to the platform or blockchain? Do you feel that people without sufficient funds shouldn't be able to interact with others? I fail to see any superable rationale for the idea that ~100 votes/day is excessive.
Consider @liberosist's proposed VP decay curve, where the first ~100 votes/day are essentially at 100%, after which VP decays rapidly to zero. Even avid Steemers (that post and comment substantially, rather than merely vote/insubstantively comment) will find ~100 votes a reasonable supply of interaction, while bots, which currently have an unlimited number of votes they can cast, in the extant VP decay scheme, that deliver some rewards, would be limited to the same number. Since, IIRC, VP decay was intended to decrease the profitability of botnets, @liberosist's proposal seems an improvement over the extant scheme.
I really want to hear some good reason why I, and other Krill (as you disavow the term Minnow. @dan's flagging of @berniesanders has proved that the metaphor of larger eating smaller is appropriate, IMHO.), should be limited to the number of votes I can cast on posts I have completely read, and commented substantively on, in an hour or so.
Take your time. I have all day.
Edit: spehllingh airrohrz"
And his final answer:
"
I fail to see any superable rationale for the idea that ~100 votes/day is excessive
Think of bots with several hundred new accounts trying to game the system.
Why do you think that ~100 votes a day is too much? YOU have ~100 votes/day.
Is it really 100 votes? I thought it was related to your # of vests and percentage.
Regarding the term Minnow
Obviously you don't agree. So let's enjoy the term:
Minnow, minnow, minnow, minnow.
Take your time. I have all day.
I don't though. I'm not heavily into long threaded debates. I've done that many times in my past and at the end, it just leads nowhere. The person you debate with eventually stops listening and reasoning, and the debate slowly gets worse and worse to the point, you have two people talking AT each other, and not talking TO each other anymore. Right about now, where we sit is my mark for that..
Thanks for the comments and your view point."
So, I let him know if he did want to comment further, I'd be looking for more detailed criticism here. Because I'd really like to know why he feels @liberosist's proposed VP decay curve wouldn't be preferable to the extant one, as it does eventually trail off to zero, while the extant decay never does go to zero, meaning that bots can cast thousands of votes a day and still give some rewards.
I posted our full conversation here, in the interest of full disclosure, so I couldn't be guilty of misrepresenting his views. I do very much want to be corrected if I am wrong about VP decay and bots, so if you think you can show me the error of my ways, please do!
Thanks for looking =)
I'll take one point at a time.
@intelliguy's response was
One suggestion: minnows was an early term, that is now taboo
According to WHO?
I'm a Texan. One problem we have is that Yankee's leave the hell-hole they created, come to Texas, then immediately starting whining and complaining cause that's not the way we done it where I came from
The typical Texas response is Greyhound is ready when you are
I check his wallet...he's got about eleven hundred steempower.
That tell me that he's a minnow. He hasn't been here very long and he's wanting to change things to suit him. TOUGH SHIT.
If he doesn't like the way we do things here he can leave.
FaceBook is just waiting for him.
(pisses me off).
LOL
I reckon I'm the one 'whining' here =p. I don't find Fakebook acceptable - at all - cuz censorship. I'm not agin' wealth, but as you know from all my prior whinging, I do think Steemit can keep new accounts it attracts at a much better rate by improving VP decay rates for krill (I still don't reckon I qualify as a minnow), and I openly advocate for weighting VP either by rep, or not at all.
The regulations of the SEC, as far as I understand them (IANAL) regard Steem as a security, since it represents voting shares that determine how rewards are disbursed. This could be bad for Steemit, and very bad for the initial miners that created the majority of the Steem extant. Worse for Steemit is that witness votes are also weighted by SP, and this means that just by buying Steem, a Sybil attack can take control over the witnesses, either getting them to run the code preferred by the attacker, or simply voting in new ones that will. At the same time, this would greatly enrich the present holders of Steem.
These aren't problems that will just go away, so I address them as best I am able. I don't want those things to happen to Steemit, nor do I want more than 40% of new accounts to be 'churned', and abandoned, as they are now. This is more than 10 times the churn Fakebook suffers, for example.
@intelliguy seems to have been here a while, while I am the new guy. Just trying to point your anger at the appropriate target, my friend =)
And, I agree with you about the term minnow. I do not like trying to control what we think by controlling the language we can use, and calling a term 'taboo' is a soft form of censorship, IMHO. Orwell treated language at length in "1984" and similar means were described as 'Newspeak'. I know you are not unfamiliar with Orwell, as you regularly quote from it.
Thanks for being quite clear as to your thinking. I appreciate it very much!
'taboo' is a soft form of censorship
That is all that I have addressed at this point.
Note: consider greenstamps.,
Whoosh!
That's the sound of an obscure reference going over my head. I remember greenstamps. I fail to make the link to my present predicament. I am clearly a dullard. Sorry!
I'm happy to delegate 100SP to put you over 500SP so you will get the voting slider if it would help.
I'm following you out of respect for what you did, and believe me it is NOT a way of asking you do the same for me :D
I took the risk and put money in here (hoping the price of #steem go up so i can at least recover what i paid coinbase (malocchio) to be able to transfer funds here
Because not only i try and want to believe in the basic principle of steemit. I want also to encourage others (mainly from my country to follow suit).
But what i really wanted to say is that now i also have the slider, someone made me think:
Value Quality over quantity
And thus I've decided i dont touch the slider, my vote at full power might not be worth more than a few cents, (6 actually) and that's pretty cheap to compensate for a full post.
I don't know how to call the whales to chip in with their 1% VP giving away 100$ so i do vote more than 10 times a day (not much more) I try to keep my votes spread over 2 hours period, but whoever gets my vote, gets it at full power and receives my meager 6 cents.
I know what you mean but I upvote comments quite often so slider is useful. The majority of my votes for posts are at 100% but sometimes lower for a funny picture or something. My vote is worth bugger all like yours but hopefully the price of STEEM will go up, and maybe, just maybe, I might stop being lazy & start writing decent posts to increase my SP.
I've upvoted this comment at 100% & I will follow you back. Venezuela is somewhere I've always wanted to visit but never made it. Hopefully I will make it before the US take over ;-)
Take it easy.
Thanks for your reply and up-vote Jim!
I want to believe we will join a group of committed Venezuelans working hard into freeing the country by ourselves by raising awareness on the power of the people.
I don't know if the US will take it over, but we expect to drive our country back to its former grandeur.,
Little known fact the Emiraties came in the 70's to ask us how to develop a country based on Oil revenue, we explained to them and somewhere along the path our society lost its way and corruption took over.
See were they are today and were the faux-left took us on populist promises... the richest country in south america begging for food and medical supplies. And the fat commies with even fatter swiss bank accounts draining the richness that belongs to 33 million people.
I hope to one day soon to be able to tell you; please by all means go and visit!
You will be safe and enjoy!
Wow. Well, I dunno what to say. Thanks!
I suppose that's a start =p
Imma hafta get used to the slider now. I was surprised when it showed up. LOL, I thought it was some kinda mistake at first, until I looked on Steemd and saw you went ahead and did it anyway =)
You are clearly the kinda guy that a) doesn't take no for an answer, and b) puts his money where his mouth is. I reckon both are admirable qualities, and prolly why I followed you to begin with.
I'll practice tomorrow =D
Edit: and thanks for the @randowhale boost! Never had one before.
No problem. I was hoping you were going to be ok about it. I joined Steemit just over a year ago and happened to post something that made $50 in rewards on my first post. I stopped using Steemit for a couple of months after this but when I signed back in I found I had 350SP due to the value of Steem increasing so much between when I posted and when the reward was paid (I think). So I had a good head start but I had the same problem as you with the voting because I hadn't yet reached 500SP. I invested about £150 into Steem to take me over 500SP and everything since then has been made from posting and curating. My point is that I basically got around 300SP for nothing so delegating 100SP to allow a great contributor to Steem to be able to increase his influence is nothing really. The SP is still mine anyway so everyone wins !!
When you get to 500SP without delegation from me I will probably take it back but until then I hope it helps.
Take it easy.
Well, I appreciate your thoughtful consideration, and commitment to the platform, as well as your characterization of my own.
Out of curiosity, as I've never paid the matter any mind before, is there a way to return to you the delegation?
I'm not sure if you can return delegated SP. I'll look into it. I do know that it takes 7 days from the day the remove delegation command is issued for it to actually be removed though. If there isn't a way for you to return it & you wanted to you can reply to this or if you wanted the request to be less visible you could send me a memo with a message as part of a small transfer of SBD (0.001).
IIRC there is a 7 day period of unavailability when the delegation is ended (from a post I dimly recall reading not so long ago).
I'm quite pleased to be able to vote (at low %) while allowing my VP to recharge! I am very grateful to you for the confidence and assistance =)
When my own SP is adequate to provide the slider I intend to let you know that the delegation has served it's purpose, so that it can be withdrawn at your convenience.
Thanks!
That is very kind and thoughtful of you! However, I used my own experience as an example of the problem faced by the majority of accounts. I am not personally focused on rewards, but seek the far more rewarding wealth of the ideas of those I follow, like yourself. The problem isn't that I am limited to ~10 votes/day, but that most accounts are, and this strongly demotivates folks from sticking around.
Were it not for the initial delegation of SP, I reckon Steemit would never have grown at all, so while your kindness to me would help me immensely in my ability to interact on Steemit, it would not help all those we need to be retained to make Steemit grow.
Since bots are the issue that were being addressed by making the VP decay rate limit new accounts (for people without enough money to simply buy the SP) to ~10 votes/day, and this decay rate still lets bots cast unlimited votes that impart rewards, I advocate @liberosist's proposed VP decay rate that I outlined above, which does prevent a bot from voting more than a human can.
So, I am not railing against the problem because it impacts me personally, but because it is impacting Steemit, and all of us.
Thank you for voicing your points. As a newbie to this platform, it took me a while to understand the whole voting thing - actually, I am still not 100% sure that I do.
It seems the person is only here to make money. Too bad for him. Most creatives are happy if their work is seen - and money is a greatly appreciated bonus.
Actually, he seems disappointed and a bit mystified as to why his efforts haven't been as rewarded as some, but takes exactly the attitude you recommend. I do find his OP to which I responded quite good for exactly that reason, as I see you also do.
Great minds think alike!
I just wish he'd schooled me at the point he decided I was just gonna ignore any good points he made. That's why I made this post: in the hope that someone will =)
I hate being wrong, so try hard to be right. When someone proves I am wrong, I couldn't be happier, because I then get to change my mind, and get right!
Thanks!
The thing is, I sometimes vote 40 times a day....
The lower your voting power gets, the less your vote is worth... so, actually you can vote pretty much as much as you want...
I haven't run out yet, and I just vote whatever I want.
What you say is true. However, I seek to use my SP in order to provide the greatest benefit to the community I can. It's actually a tossup between voting more, and voting harder. I try to vote harder, to grant the greatest reward I can. It may not actually be the right way to go. I dunno.
But I reckon that most folks want that.
Regardless, I used to vote freely what I wanted to upvote, and when I was voting 100+ times per day, my VP became vanishingly small. Took a week to get up to full power =/
That became a sort of training period for me, exercising my willpower to not vote when I wanted to. I guess we form habits thereby.
Well, for me, my full power could be worth 15c idk. I'd rather spread the votes. Only real solution is more steem power, methinks (edited)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, sorry.
And, you have been the recipient of my very first vote with the slider! Hopefully, I can get my VP back up soon, and still be able to vote in the meantime. It's gonna take a few days, I think. It's below 70% atm...
Dang auto correct
You are absolutely correct, however, my location makes cell phones a hit and miss affair. I sometimes don't get texts until the next day, and constantly miss calls, because the coverage is so poor, so I haven't even used eSteem.
I have the slider now, so it's moot for me personally, however, the issue still affects ~98% of accounts, so it remains of vital import for all of us, as it dramatically affects retention of new accounts. The dearth of votes available to them is so discouraging I am amazed anyone persists after more than a day or so, after the initial orgy of greetings from their introductory posts.
This is sure true. I think some illustrations would help people envision how it works also. All the various influences on rewards really should be better, and authoritatively, explained, and not only for new users. I am sure that I yet misunderstand, or incompletely comprehend, such intricacies.
Great idea, too!
This post received a 2% upvote from @randowhale thanks to @jimbobbill! For more information, click here!