I don't think the recording shows that Ned didn't tell Justin about the prior promises for the stake, and actually I think if you read between the lines it more likely confirms that Justin DID know of this. A non disclosure agreement between Ned and Justin RE the sale was mentioned in the recording - by the nature of a NDA of course we don't know what was covered, but it would be much harder to believe that Justin had no idea of prior commitments to the stake, than it would be to believe that he did know about it, didn't consider prior commitments by stinc to be legally binding to him after he purchased the stake, and that he is pretending ignorance while communicating with witnesses to buy time while he continues to try to gain more Steem to stake, push through a hardfork with short power down time, and allow the exchanges who helped him to get their steem liquid again... because that is exactly what his actions have been. Don't listen to the words, watch the hand holding the knife.
EDIT - and actually, you can just listen to the words as well - how many times in that talk with the witnesses did he say variants of "the past history between you and Ned is between you and Ned, and has nothing to do with me". That doesn't read to me like he was unaware of the past history, it reads to me like he doesn't think it has anything to do with him and his purchase of the stake. It is debatable if the multiple promises on the chain RE the intended use of the Steem stake amounted to a legal obligation that would transfer to a new owner of the company, particularly when those promises were worded in such a way as to keep it open e.g. in the Steem road map which many people point to there is wording that the uses listed are not an exclusive list. Not to mention, the programmatic powerdown and sell off that Stinc was doing the entire time was NOT used for development and was instead used to send $ dividends to Stinc shareholders, so precedent was already in place for exactly what Justin stated he planned to do with the stake - sell it and profit from it.
I did notice those words as he did keep going back to them... However, I took it to mean that past agreements, as known to him now, are not binding (even if they were legal in a blog post?) to him?
But yes, I do agree that the Steemit stake has never really properly and legally defined... We just chose to read what we wanted in what was said.
However, I'm not really sure what the end goal is if he planned to just dump the Steem? That in itself seems not as profitable as you would think. A consensus witness takeover also doesn't seem really required for that either (until the soft fork). I do think that there is more at play as well... But I don't see what the goal is.
No, it doesn't. I still don't think we should lord it if we regain an upper hand and make demands. Gentle concessions and understanding will be better.
Keep in mind that the exchanges are going to be tilted towards tron if we look like we are going to shaft them for their actions.
I completely agree. The debate is if steemit owns their stake or is a custodian. Justin saw an opportunity and says he did his legal due diligence and isn't going to just give in.
He won't stop calling them malicious hackers who tried to steal his private property until they present a lot of convincing evidence it is not his private property.
Honestly, I don't think that there is proof that would hold up in a court... and crypto isn't really a regulated space... Steemit might be, but what would we do... a class action, that is a joke and a token gesture at the best of times!
I think that the stake is a lost cause... the real problem is the broken governance model... but I think the witnesses are going to dodge that, and present the problem as the big bad exchanges and Sun.
Welcome to the supreme court of Steem where whoever has the most is the court. No country or national court may interfere with our domestic internal affairs. Putside arbitration is the last thing I want. I have a feeling they don't care about us little guys. But they are definitely greedybenough to believe Ned and Justin don't get it either. Binance and Huobi said they won't get involved which means they will accept the out come as long as we don't punish them, too. I can agree to that.
There ate definitely other issues and fundamental flaws with Steem. Part of me wants to reset and find another blockchain, while part of me wants to hold on to the last satoshi and fork away.
Moving money will affect the witness standing (which I think is happening on their side, ours if from voting), I checked this morning and afternoon we have 7 witnesses, it would be healthy to move to ten each.
A follow on meeting should happen soon, a more level headed approach to resolve issues rather than point fingers.
Agreed, I think ten each... so no-one feels threatened, and able to veto any hard-fork proposals. This way, talks can proceed with the feeling that one side will just stomp on the other!... However, I am a little worried that the exchanges aren't powering down!
Exchanges should never have got involved in this in the first place, boycott them and never use them again would be my advice.
If an exchange is using their power (being paid off) in this manner they are no longer doing their core business, how could anyone trust them! Let us see once this is settled what happens to their users.
Agreed... but there is no real terms and conditions there... after all, however, I think people do store crypto there for easy trading and non-technical storage. I prefer to do otherwise... but I do leave small amounts there... and lots of small amounts add up!
However, the biggest problem was that it was at all possible... this points to a flaw in the current dPOS implementation... after all, if a large account (exchange or otherwise) can have that much of an influence, then it was NEVER decentralised to begin with! We were just naive and didn't notice....
Well... they finally did it... I think in the end it was unfamiliarity with the chain, the fact that they would have to use CLI... and needing to be hyper cautious with moving (plus, multiple people needing to sign the transactions...).
We use STEEM all the time... but if you drop most of us in a different ecosystem, we would be just as confused!
I listened and had much the same reaction. Now that the witnesses are shifting back, I'm not so sure. IMO, for someone with business savvy, too much was missed. Whether it was hidden or questions not asked, most of the answers are in the public domain. Surely Sun has minions to do that work? The line between Steemit Inc and the blockchain is but a blurry one.
I don't think so, Justin was buying Steem for the entire month (ish) since the rumors first started flying. Maybe the announcement on twitter itself was timed to coincide with voice but I am pretty sure the deal had been in the works for a while given his activity in acquiring Steem prior to his announcement
Possibly, but how do you know that he was buying Steem tokens? I missed that bit.
I do think that he was still looking for a way to trump the Voice launch. That date was also known for a long time. To me (but I have no experience...), a purchase like this over a month seems a bit of a short time frame... However, my life experience is a bit different to these high flyers!
But weren't there rumours of this months ago? But yes, I think you're right. And I agree with @nickyhavey about the communication issue. Poor @andrarchy was hung out to dry.
Thanks... I would have hoped for a slightly faster resolution to all of this... but it doesn't help that our side is full of mixed ideas at best... and the other side seems to be a little untrustworthy or chaotic at best!
Thank you for this write up. I appreciate it a lot. 😊😊 now I have an idea of what was talked about. However, it's still unclear on what is going to happen next. We could only hope for the best of everyone in the Steem communities. I still believe in the communities here and am staying on to do my part in helping any way I can. After all, I'm just a small fish 😊😊
Yes, in all this power play... we are the ones that are stuck in the middle... I hope that the principal actors can put their egos away in a box and just come to a solution!
I am frankly convinced that however it goes it will be a success ... don't you think? It was just needed a tsunami to move the waters!
If the value of STEEM is its community, the worst that JS can do is destroy the BC, not the community. The community will then be able to start STEEM 3.0 stronger than ever... right?
I'm not quite so sure about that... the governance problem is really quite a big one and one that I am worried that will be glossed over. STEEM price is only holding even as people are buying to bolster the witness positions... after this is over, it will be unstable (possibly...).
I listened to it too and came to many of the same conclusions — and also that it’s good Ned has moved on. Seems like a weasel move to sell Steemit the way he did, evidently acting like there are no strings attached and it’s as straightforward as buying a car.
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FFS... in the time that I wrote this post... we dropped from 10 to 2 witnesses.
I don't think the recording shows that Ned didn't tell Justin about the prior promises for the stake, and actually I think if you read between the lines it more likely confirms that Justin DID know of this. A non disclosure agreement between Ned and Justin RE the sale was mentioned in the recording - by the nature of a NDA of course we don't know what was covered, but it would be much harder to believe that Justin had no idea of prior commitments to the stake, than it would be to believe that he did know about it, didn't consider prior commitments by stinc to be legally binding to him after he purchased the stake, and that he is pretending ignorance while communicating with witnesses to buy time while he continues to try to gain more Steem to stake, push through a hardfork with short power down time, and allow the exchanges who helped him to get their steem liquid again... because that is exactly what his actions have been. Don't listen to the words, watch the hand holding the knife.
EDIT - and actually, you can just listen to the words as well - how many times in that talk with the witnesses did he say variants of "the past history between you and Ned is between you and Ned, and has nothing to do with me". That doesn't read to me like he was unaware of the past history, it reads to me like he doesn't think it has anything to do with him and his purchase of the stake. It is debatable if the multiple promises on the chain RE the intended use of the Steem stake amounted to a legal obligation that would transfer to a new owner of the company, particularly when those promises were worded in such a way as to keep it open e.g. in the Steem road map which many people point to there is wording that the uses listed are not an exclusive list. Not to mention, the programmatic powerdown and sell off that Stinc was doing the entire time was NOT used for development and was instead used to send $ dividends to Stinc shareholders, so precedent was already in place for exactly what Justin stated he planned to do with the stake - sell it and profit from it.
I did notice those words as he did keep going back to them... However, I took it to mean that past agreements, as known to him now, are not binding (even if they were legal in a blog post?) to him?
But yes, I do agree that the Steemit stake has never really properly and legally defined... We just chose to read what we wanted in what was said.
However, I'm not really sure what the end goal is if he planned to just dump the Steem? That in itself seems not as profitable as you would think. A consensus witness takeover also doesn't seem really required for that either (until the soft fork). I do think that there is more at play as well... But I don't see what the goal is.
I see 7 as of now. (four hours after you wrote this comment)
Posted via Steemleo
Seven now, there was an agreement with the Korean community proxy to keep a balance whilst things were being worked out.
That's pretty cool. I would like to see more information about that.
Posted via Steemleo
Does this change your opinion expressed above?
No, it doesn't. I still don't think we should lord it if we regain an upper hand and make demands. Gentle concessions and understanding will be better.
Keep in mind that the exchanges are going to be tilted towards tron if we look like we are going to shaft them for their actions.
I completely agree. The debate is if steemit owns their stake or is a custodian. Justin saw an opportunity and says he did his legal due diligence and isn't going to just give in.
He won't stop calling them malicious hackers who tried to steal his private property until they present a lot of convincing evidence it is not his private property.
Honestly, I don't think that there is proof that would hold up in a court... and crypto isn't really a regulated space... Steemit might be, but what would we do... a class action, that is a joke and a token gesture at the best of times!
I think that the stake is a lost cause... the real problem is the broken governance model... but I think the witnesses are going to dodge that, and present the problem as the big bad exchanges and Sun.
Welcome to the supreme court of Steem where whoever has the most is the court. No country or national court may interfere with our domestic internal affairs. Putside arbitration is the last thing I want. I have a feeling they don't care about us little guys. But they are definitely greedybenough to believe Ned and Justin don't get it either. Binance and Huobi said they won't get involved which means they will accept the out come as long as we don't punish them, too. I can agree to that.
There ate definitely other issues and fundamental flaws with Steem. Part of me wants to reset and find another blockchain, while part of me wants to hold on to the last satoshi and fork away.
Still, a good read and it’s not over yet.
... and it's still going...
That's just unbelievable!
proxy.token votes put most of the puppets back in, that account controls over 6 million SP.
Moving money will affect the witness standing (which I think is happening on their side, ours if from voting), I checked this morning and afternoon we have 7 witnesses, it would be healthy to move to ten each.
A follow on meeting should happen soon, a more level headed approach to resolve issues rather than point fingers.
Always two sides to every coin.
Agreed, I think ten each... so no-one feels threatened, and able to veto any hard-fork proposals. This way, talks can proceed with the feeling that one side will just stomp on the other!... However, I am a little worried that the exchanges aren't powering down!
Exchanges should never have got involved in this in the first place, boycott them and never use them again would be my advice.
If an exchange is using their power (being paid off) in this manner they are no longer doing their core business, how could anyone trust them! Let us see once this is settled what happens to their users.
Domino effect....
Agreed... but there is no real terms and conditions there... after all, however, I think people do store crypto there for easy trading and non-technical storage. I prefer to do otherwise... but I do leave small amounts there... and lots of small amounts add up!
However, the biggest problem was that it was at all possible... this points to a flaw in the current dPOS implementation... after all, if a large account (exchange or otherwise) can have that much of an influence, then it was NEVER decentralised to begin with! We were just naive and didn't notice....
Thanks for your useful recap, @bengy!
I wonder why @binance-hot has not yet started the power-down, despite having suspended the withdrawal of STEEM from all its customers (including me)
A huge hug!
Resteemed
Well... they finally did it... I think in the end it was unfamiliarity with the chain, the fact that they would have to use CLI... and needing to be hyper cautious with moving (plus, multiple people needing to sign the transactions...).
We use STEEM all the time... but if you drop most of us in a different ecosystem, we would be just as confused!
....a slight omission?
Posted via Steemleo
Australia has much in common with our English roots... Understating is one of them!
I listened and had much the same reaction. Now that the witnesses are shifting back, I'm not so sure. IMO, for someone with business savvy, too much was missed. Whether it was hidden or questions not asked, most of the answers are in the public domain. Surely Sun has minions to do that work? The line between Steemit Inc and the blockchain is but a blurry one.
To me, it sounds like a rushed acquisition to try and get ahead of the EOS Voice launch...
I don't think so, Justin was buying Steem for the entire month (ish) since the rumors first started flying. Maybe the announcement on twitter itself was timed to coincide with voice but I am pretty sure the deal had been in the works for a while given his activity in acquiring Steem prior to his announcement
Possibly, but how do you know that he was buying Steem tokens? I missed that bit.
I do think that he was still looking for a way to trump the Voice launch. That date was also known for a long time. To me (but I have no experience...), a purchase like this over a month seems a bit of a short time frame... However, my life experience is a bit different to these high flyers!
But weren't there rumours of this months ago? But yes, I think you're right. And I agree with @nickyhavey about the communication issue. Poor @andrarchy was hung out to dry.
I don't know... there were rumours of everything from Samsung to anyone else buying...
Nice post @bengy the lack of communication all the way around was the key to this poop storm.
Thanks... it is a right poop storm all right... but it does bring out the true colours in people, which is interesting as well!
Great synopsis of the meeting. Your thoughts are very similar to mine.
Thanks... I would have hoped for a slightly faster resolution to all of this... but it doesn't help that our side is full of mixed ideas at best... and the other side seems to be a little untrustworthy or chaotic at best!
It will be interesting to see how it plays out!
Thanks for summarising it all and putting some balance across.
The takeaway here is, communication is always key :)
Yep... a little less macho posturing!
Haha yea that too!
Thank you for this write up. I appreciate it a lot. 😊😊 now I have an idea of what was talked about. However, it's still unclear on what is going to happen next. We could only hope for the best of everyone in the Steem communities. I still believe in the communities here and am staying on to do my part in helping any way I can. After all, I'm just a small fish 😊😊
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes, in all this power play... we are the ones that are stuck in the middle... I hope that the principal actors can put their egos away in a box and just come to a solution!
Your balance is below $0.3. Your account is running low and should be replenished. You have roughly 10 more @dustsweeper votes. Check out the Dustsweeper FAQ here: https://steemit.com/dustsweeper/@dustsweeper/dustsweeper-faq
I am frankly convinced that however it goes it will be a success ... don't you think? It was just needed a tsunami to move the waters!
If the value of STEEM is its community, the worst that JS can do is destroy the BC, not the community. The community will then be able to start STEEM 3.0 stronger than ever... right?
I'm not quite so sure about that... the governance problem is really quite a big one and one that I am worried that will be glossed over. STEEM price is only holding even as people are buying to bolster the witness positions... after this is over, it will be unstable (possibly...).
I listened to it too and came to many of the same conclusions — and also that it’s good Ned has moved on. Seems like a weasel move to sell Steemit the way he did, evidently acting like there are no strings attached and it’s as straightforward as buying a car.
Yes... I think that it is good that he has moved on... but one week later... we are still at an impasse!
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