So, this has been on my mind for a long time.
Like many of you I have been through several Hard Forks (with Steem) and what struck me is that each time the decisions had already been made and it was the job of the witnesses to persuade the proles like me that everything was going to be much greener on the other side of the fence.
Whether it was the adoption of RCs or changing of the curation curve, or the percentage authors and curators get, we were always told the changes were necessary for Steem (as was) to grow. We were promised a pathway to the moon. Each time these changes have not been the thing that has promoted lift off. The promised influx of investors has come to nothing (well, Steem did get one big investor but it didn't turn out too well).
With the advent of Hive things could be different. There is no longer a central body pushing us in a certain direction.
But what now?
It seems to me that decisions on the future of Hive are still being made in darkened rooms by “the inner circle”.
Now, don’t get me wrong: I am grateful for what people did (and do) to create (and maintain) Hive. We (The People) needed an escape route from an oppressor and that needed to be done by the revolutionaries in secret.
But history is littered with stories of revolutionaries (usually with the best of motives) leading the people in a successful revolt against an oppressive regime, only to become an oppressive regime themselves.
Revolutionaries have clear ideas about the utopia they seek. The People do not always share that vision.
The People are running from something, they do not necessarily want to run towards a new system that will benefit another small number of people.
I feel Hive is at that point now.
Where are we going? Who are the leaders?
Please don’t say, “it is decentralised, there are no leaders”.
That is bullshit and we all know it. There are still people with more power than others and some of them use it for good, and some of them not. Decisions are made behind the scenes.
I know that, you know that.
We are not stupid please don’t treat us as if we were.
I have been disappointed at how people with power have treated newcomers to the platform, some of the behaviour of the rich (in Hive) and powerful runs against against the narrative that Hive is aiming for “mass adoption”.
It makes me feel that there are many who don’t want to see Hive truly grow because that threatens their power. I have seen how some have wielded downvotes in order to attack other curators (not because they disagree with what is being upvoted but because they don’t like the people doing the curating - or they feel their own short-term interests are threatened - they don’t want them here on Hive) and therefore impacting on small users.
So, what is the vision for Hive?
I have heard talk of the Reward Pool being removed, the plebs no longer given access to Hive but being rewarded by tokens, SMTs (yet another idea that will “save” Hive).
Is this a view shared by most Top 20 witnesses?
If not, what are the other visions?
I don’t know what each witness thinks on the Hive issues of the day (unless they post something which often feels to as if there is a predecided agenda.)
If you click on the link on the witness vote page to find out what Witnesses are about (and why you should vote for them) don't expect to find up to date information.
In the Top 20 Witnesses there are a few who updated around the time of Hive creation, there are a few who have no information at all (the link takes you to their profile, or their dapp) there are more than a few when you click it takes to a 4 year old post (also 2 years ago, around the HF 20 seems popular).
@arcange is the ONLY Witness in the Top 20 has a link to a post published in the last two months (July 1st 2020)
So how are we expected to know whether you will have OUR best interests at heart when the next HF is proposed?
Hive is a mirror of the Real World and to deny it is foolish.
Like democracies, the world over, the more money - Hive - you have the more influence and votes you have or can buy.
I don't even know if the votes of users like me even matter. Are the top 20 the top 20 because of ordinary users or because the powerful keep them there?
Whose agenda do they serve?
We don’t have elections as such. So we don’t know what the vision is because no one really cares enough to persuade you to vote for them (especially if they are in the top 20).
I would like Witnesses to set out their vision. I would also like to know who works with who, who agrees on what and where we are going. And I would like this to happen on Hive not in a discord server.
I would like people to stop pretending there are no leaders, no “inner circle”.
Is being a user on a decentralised platform really any better than being on a centralised one?
Or is it just another lie, spun to keep the peasants from revolting?
On this decentralised we love open-sourced dapps.
But what about our Witnesses? Shouldn't they be Open-Sourced too?
Shouldn't we know what makes them work? What drives them? Who they agree with and who they don't? And why.
I have removed my votes from most of the top 20 witnesses. I have votes to spare.
I'm glad you brought this up. I've been confused about the things that are going on here on Hive at an operational level, especially because I'm a newbie. But since I've been reading lately about these topics, I would also like to know the answers to these questions. Now I know I'm not the only one asking them.
In another note, I would like to humbly point out the following, and go to the basics:
According to the Cambridge dictionary, "decentralization" is the act or process of decentralizing an organization or government (= moving control from a single place to several smaller ones).In light of this definition and the ideas of @felt.buzz and other members who have posted their comments on the matter at hand, I would also propose that all Hive users have a saying (vote) on the issues that have an impact on the platform. Perhaps surveys of opinion, or other methods to know what people think and want for Hive. To feel at least a small portion of control. I'm not saying votes would determine the whole thing, 'cause I guess technical knowledge is required, but at least have witnesses or leaders know what we think as users, or as the people, as @felt.buzz calls us, which I believe is actually accurate (with no intention of overusing this jargon of course hehe).
I do believe that we all matter here, otherwise without users Hive wouldn't even exist. So we should be heard.
I hope the best for this platform. I like it here and wouldn't want it to be lost in the hands of a few.
@lacrucita,
I was going to post the following:
And then I had second thoughts. 🤔
Nah, think I'll rocket you to the top. You deserve it. Well said!
Just put up a post pointing out 3 principal meeting places here on HIVE. Looks like this discussion has only just begun!
https://hive.blog/community/@cryptographic/three-fully-public-places-for-community-discussion
https://peakd.com/@blocktrades/posts
Weird, it's like you think there are no info when there is a representative post made about it weekly.
Nice misinformation.
If you are looking at the witness vote page and click on the link besides his name it takes you to the blocktrades site, not to his blog, nor to his latest post. Time was that that link was supposed to give you information about why you should vote for someone. Read what you have quoted and check it yourself
Check your facts before you accuse me of misinformation.
Sounds like a user problem. Maybe even a frontend one. Maybe you should get out of your little "community" more.
It's funny you use that as a metric as arcange almost never posts or comments except for his automated reports.
Sure I haven't done a witness update in a while, but I post every day, I comment 10-50 times a day on posts, and I'm active in communities and discords, I even ran a weekly 2 hour show on MSP Waves for a year, I'm also very approachable (unless your begging for votes, then I likely won't answer). People know what I have to say because I am out saying it, I don't feel like I have to do a weekly witness update.
I know you are active on Twitter. If I went to your Hive blog I am sure I'd find out a lot too.
But, when I am looking through the witness vote page I want to be able to click on that link and find some information about why I should vote for a particular witness. Particularly, now that we are now Hive.
The reason I mentioned @arcange was because his was the only top 20 witness that had a reasonably up to date link from there.
I know, but do you ever see him anywhere?
I think you are missing my point (I am obviously not being clear). I am not saying he is the gold standard (not at all). What I am saying is that I don't know what the witnesses stand for. If I am voting for someone I would like to know that. Yes, I see you around all the time but I don't know where individual witnesses think hive should go next. I would like to see people set that out clearly before I cast my vote
I get your point, I'm just saying it isn't a good one ;)
I agree there needs to be better though, and I have had something on the backburner to help with that but I just never got around to doing it.
That being said, a lot of witnesses are just not active on the chain. Sometimes that tells a lot, sometimes it doesn't.
Have a look at my blog, and you will see that I do regular posts about my work. Check my comments stats and rank, and you will find that I'm engaging with users (at least as much as you) on-chain and off-chain.
I'm not a blogger. So I don't post about things like games, movies, computers, ...
However, this doesn't mean I'm not working or committed to Hive.
Your blog is 98% automated posts as are your alts. Just checked and still that way, sure you make the occasional non-automated post.
About damn time we started rocking this boat. Kudos @felt.buzz! Glad our "inner convos" have contributed to starting up the conversation. !tip
I know that blocktrades gives pretty regular updates on whats happening on hive from a core development perspective. They also post the link where you can interact with the github. I've never went out there, but I understand that there is some type of open forum there.
Hear! Hear! I would like to know what each of the witnesses stands for and their vision for Hive and would like to see more clear vision for where Hive is heading.
Reblogged to get more eye-balls on it!
Good points mate, it can be very unclear about what each witness is looking for with Hive and the links on the peakd witness section take you to some dusty corner of the platform where those original visions don't match where we are now. Perhaps an evergreen, pinned post in that witnesses profile is something that has to happen as to why people should vote for them.
I get that witness votes are still there from the Hive HF back in March, maybe they haven't updated, maybe they don't even know how to. I may write another educational post about it as it's important!
In any case, I think the experiment of decentralised governance has run its course? There must have been an originator of the idea to create Hive, like there was behind creating steem. Having Steemit as the lead developers as they "invented" steem (correct me if I'm wrong) and then you have witnesses across the world making sure that everything was up and running with transactions being recorded was definitely the right way to go but it was so poorly managed that the original vision (whatever it was) became lost - we saw it with bidbots totally destroying the reputation and they maybe could/should have done something about it.
But the fact is, the originator of the concept behind Steem had a vision they wanted to fulfill with it. So what about Hive? Who had the original idea to split and create it because it must have happened somewhere. These are the ones who would have the vision as to what they wanted for Hive. Unless it is just a "we aren't steem" movement, in which case, that battle has already been won back in March.
It could be that we'll have people with different opinions of where they want to take Hive and there will be "micro forks" coming off of this, each with their own vision of where they wanted Hive to go. One with rewards pool at the Base Layer like it is now, one with the rewards pool at 2nd layer like with Hive-engine or SMTs, which are like some mythical beast that you hear about in Greek mythology!
Anyway, just throwing things out there, think there needs to be more discussion about where we're heading and leadership, someone needs to grab the Bull by the horns here!
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The Questions habe been asked now, let‘s not just throw answers at them. We should take some time develop them at first.
Sorry mate, you've lost me there! Can you elaborate please?
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If I want a balanced view of the reality of a topic, I'll consider multiple different perspectives and points of view. That seems to be a natural pathway from subjective to somewhat objective.
Vice Versa, we can do the same thing with this questions, that would be a good thing to do at this point. Decrease the brainstorm, increase the sharpness.
That's literally the whole point of a civil and open discussion. People share their points of view, questions and ideas/suggestions in an open forum, people talk about it and we all move forward having understood the others point of view.
Will stop this particular dialogue now. Thanks for engaging.
Posted using Dapplr
I would have said the same, but then I read some Friedrich Nietzsche and that changed the way I looked at critical questions.
You may take a look at this video:
It's a gameplay from Assassin's Creed 3. What I want to show you here is the dialogues that the both of them speaks after 1:40 of the video.
I think that kind of explore the dilemma of decentralization and reflects on what you said. The sheep refers to Hivers. The shepherd refers to the "leaders" of Hive.
I've been thinking about that too. Some witnesses are active - @curie, @arcange, @aggroed - and many more but I am not all make up the top 20. Agreed that the top 20 should share their ideas.
Justin Sun was a moment where all of us came together and we cannot expect such scenarios happening for us to come together. Otherwise, we will be coming together only to bash someone. Some thoughts on a system where community votes are also considered for way ahead would be a good idea. Else, the top 20 decide everything and we have to hope that they have the best interests in mind.
P.S. - Really? Some curator downvoted another curator? Damn, that's sad!
Yeah they do, actually why not?
Yes, it isn't that they downvote each others post but downvote deserving posts simply because someone else voted for it. For me it destroys any argument that curation is a good thing. You are not controlling spam by downvoting like that. And for new people who don't understand what has happened it feels as if someone thinks their post is crap
Yeah, you are making a super solid point here! People get discouraged after taking the wrong reaction click too often... that's a typical human flaw. We need 10 likes to outbalance a dislike -_-
If I may finish that thought, Dislike categories could solve that? Since there is no 'flag' on HIVE DApps, we might need to be able to Dislike in proper flag categories. SPAM|REWARD|CONTENT
Because like @felt.buzz said, it was not about the content but just that one of them is unhappy with the other. Sort out your problems between you. Why pull in other in the cross-fire.
By the way, nice meeting you @manniman! :)
Thanks for the nice words!
Random downvotes are very common on the www, so do people really care about them more if they occur on HIVE DApps... or is it the debuff on the reward that stings in the end? Hard to tell, because both things will always be true at the same time.
It sure is a funny sort of decentralisation.
I wonder how many top20 are actually on the same root systems... hmmmm
We cannot become decentralized in a system that naturally creates an Oligarchy. Steem and now Hive are modeled after the failed/failing U.S. governmental system and cannot become decentralized as is.
I'm waiting just like you to see how the switch will be flipped, but doing so is never in the interest of those at the helm.
It's time for some big governance changes, but nothing has been proposed, let alone instituted. The time for ccomplacency is over and we need to support better ideas. This means changing our witness votes to those that listen, rather than preach.
I have hope, but think the system will not be changing anytime soon. Decaying witness votes would be a start, but aren't in the next HF, so ppl like @blocktrades are playing politics and we need to reign this outdated method of propaganda in.
'Til then, I'll just sit on the sidelines and spectate until true decentralization is in the sites of the many. Right now enough are earning, so won't speak up for fear of reprisal. This needs to change or Hive never truly will.
DAMN STRAIGHT!
!tip
One of the biggest problems with this system is people are afraid to speak up just in case they are punished.
That isn't right.
Really, users say it all the time. You are a minority.
Anyway, it's too bad that's all you took away from my full comment. That was the least important statement expressed, but you ignored the facts.
I'm confused. What facts have I ignored?
I guess you truly aren't interested in a two-way convo.
Enjoy your day
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Okay, a lot of the things you say seem solvable.
And the lack of open leadership annoys you, right?
I would like to know more about who makes the decisions. And why. And I would like to know where the people who approve the decisions (the top 20 witnesses) stand so I can vote for people who I believe will make the right decisions for the right reasons
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I still have hope for Hive. But you bring up some great points. I still need to go back through my witness list and ask myself, what are you doing to deserve my vote.
I haven't! Really??
Upped and Reposted
!tip
Mostly it has come from @therealwolf. What I don't know is is he a lone wolf or just floating the idea on behalf of a larger number of witnesses https://peakd.com/hive-102930/@therealwolf/re-social-layers-and-reward-pools-let-s-talk-about-it
Here is someone very much against this (not a witness)
https://peakd.com/rewardpool/@edicted/the-boy-who-cried-wolf
Thanks! I didn't read either one of them. I have been overworked the last few weeks.
Thanks again!
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OMG! This is the greatest post ever! Ive been wanting to know more about these exact questions but didnt even know how to ask.
I love the idea of open source witnesses!
Is their requirements to be a witness (outside of hardware)? ie actively posting on hive, percentage of money that gets reinvested, perhaps a campaign of some sort from them.
Thank you for this post!
Thanks.
Anyone can set themselves up as a witness (which was the problem that caused the split with Steem, as a whole load of 'sock puppet' witnesses were created overnight - brand new accounts, controlled by one entity - and voted into the top 20).
Thats not right. Thats definitely a hostile take over.
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I have felt the same way a number of times. I wonder if we shouldn't wipe out all votes for all witnesses at a certain date, and start over.
Many of the votes that put these people into power are carried through from Steem - which isn't an accurate representation of how the Hive community feels I don't think.
I think that has been proposed. The problem is with any voting system is people who benefit from the current one are reluctant to support changes to it
Yeah, and in an environment like ours where those in power financially gain from the status quo, they're even more resistant to it.
Some days I think the Top 20 don't give a shit about anything beyond their wallets.
OMG! Get out of my head!
This is another reason I dislike Discord, I used it under Steem and it always felt like a "Members Only" club.
I know of at least one witness who uses their power to attack anyone who dares to think Steem is OK which is disgraceful behaviour from someone who is supposed to be setting and example to us all.
Who are the witness? I have no idea tbh. I've been a bit of a sheep and voted for ones that others have but I do like all the gentle persuaders you get "Consider voting X for a witness" and I'm like "OK, where's you prospectus? What do you stand for? Want do you intend to do for me for my vote?" I keep telling everyone that they should complain, not for complaining sake but to highlight problems. Too many have a 'Facepaint' (I stole that from someone this morning) view of Hive. Brilliant post by the way.I have 8 of the top 20 by my last count a week ago. Time to cull the list some more. They can get their votes back if they......engage.
Maybe
Good questions! I would like to see some answers from our leaders.
One question; Is slack (where witnesses and other big users are making decisions) open for everyone? Or it's just invite-only or u need to be a witness?
Thank you for writing this.
Hive is more decentralised than many other crypto and it has liquid democracy.
No one can stop me or you running own own independent Hive node and have different or collective vision.
I want to personally see more new Witnesses and I want to see healthy competition for top 20.
Definitely better than 2 party system in the real world 🌎
Some good observations and questions, but maybe a little too antagonistic, a little too aggressive, in my opinion of course. I'm fairly confident that the witnesses act in just as good of faith as you, and that this is simply an issue of good communication. Yes there is a tendency everywhere to dumb down, just as we all generalize in order to better understand. I think engagement is the key. I know a lot of witnesses are very busy people, and that could be one of the explanations for their lack of involvement here on the blog. Technical aspects are dealt with in smaller circles mainly in an effort to be more efficient with their time. I think most of the more important ideas see rather acceptable general debate, but I agree, it can always get better. I see a definite challenge here, a need to be filled that will require dedication and perseverance, and the key, again, in my opinion, will be constructive dialogue. You know, it's not the destination, rather the journey that's important. Constructive dialogue about who we are, where we're going, and how we're doing it could be the focal point.
cc @abit @aggroed @anyx @arcange @ausbitbank @bhuz @blocktrades @cervantes @curie @dragosroua @drakos @emrebeyler @good-karma @gtg @jesta @leofinance @lukestokes.mhth @ocd-witness @roelandp @sc-steemit @smooth.witness @someguy123 @steempeak @stoodkev @thecryptodrive @themarkymark @timcliff @utopian-io @xeldal @yabapmatt
Sometimes in order to be heard, you need to make a little noise.
But do we know where that destination is and are we all agreed on it?
The "destination" is a huge unknown. Who knew where the U.S. was going when the constitution was written? Or where any free, democratic society is going? It's impossible to know.
What's important is the foundation, the building blocks, on which a free society bases itself. That's what makes possible everything good that comes about - normally, in democratic states, that has been a force for historical good. The same with blockchain. If it's decentralized and democratic, I'm fine with it. More than fine, I'm happy, excited, motivated, involved, engaged because I know it's going to go somewhere incredibly positive, incredibly good, just like what we see happens in larger social spheres.
Maybe a better question is "what do we do next?".
Yes, and that is kind of my point. Every four years there is a vision presented for where the US is going next. People can see what people stand for and choose to cast their votes or not. I don't see that happening here. I am asked to vote for witnesses but I don't really know what direction they see Hive going (or what the destination looks like from their perspective)
Like I said before, engagement and interchange of ideas and opinions is key, and I'm confident that from what I know about the witnesses, and with the initiative on the part of fellow Hivers like you, that's going to happen. This post and thread are an example, and you can count on my support 100%. Remember what they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.
There are some people (I belong to them) that have a real good vision for Hive:
https://peakd.com/hive-149312/@achimmertens/a-new-vision-for-charity-on-hive
And we need more Visions!
Achim
[HIVE.E.League.D!]
TAG: @mattmonsour, @johnstark, @fulltimegeek, @austinsteinbart, @realmiketrimm you are IT!
Thank you @felt.buzz. This needed to be said. And I completely agree with you.
When I joined the Steem blockchain 3+ years ago it was just fine! Better UI's and more apps would've been nice of course, but instead of focusing on that they always just kept messing with the actual blockchain... always promising that it was the next big thing and that the investors would come rushing in... which has always turned out to be crap. It just comes down to the whales controlling all the witnesses in order for them to keep milking the system. IMHO.
What I think makes Hive so awesome is that the average blogger like you and me can earn Hive just by creating content, but whenever anyone earns money from the reward pool it creates inflation... so new users earning money is in direct conflict with whales and their large investments which they don't like seeing devalued due to said inflation... thus the desire to cut us off from the pool.
When it comes down to it what I really want is for Hive to be about the actual users, not the investors. I'd take a lower price over ruining the chain any day.
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STOPTo support your work, I also upvoted your post!
Do not miss the last post from @hivebuzz:
Not sure what each witness has elected to do, keeping the engines running smoothly, occasionaly may post from time to time with report back on what they are doing.
It would be a nice to have general report back quarterly, however making a list of witnesses you do follow will give easy access to learn more about those who do post.
Hive had a big move to make, many still working hard both in the back office and foreground which leaves me allowing more time to keep supporting many I found to be amazing people.