NO Financial Security in POB Investment

in LeoFinancelast month (edited)

POB Tokens are NOT safe

The following post is my personal opnion on POB token, where I did make a small investment couple of days back, and was looking to make substantial investment, similar to my involvement in several other hive projects like Splinterlands, Leofinance etc. This is not a financial advice, as I am not a certified financial advisor. You must do your own research before you make an investment and continue to do so, as you have invested in a product. I have done some of that over the last few days and this is my personal opinion. It is going to be both social and financial in nature, so I am posting in Leofinance, where I frequently post.

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Background

For those who do not know me, I am with hive (previously steem) since Jan 2018. I consider myself an activist investor. I have battled alongside the witnesses, and the rest of the community during the hard fork from steem, and I stand by our Hive project till date. I have invested substantial amount of money in multiple hive assets, both on the first layer and on several projects in the second layer. Also, most importantly, I have also invested in many talented people, I will not mention their names, but they are not one or two; and I am proud of their acheivents. I think as a social network we have potential, but we are yet to realize it. I actively work with the hive core team on betterment of this blockchain. Since, I am not a developer, I can't do blockchain development. My involvement is mostly on the goverance side based on my stake. I am not in hive for any direct financial gain. My entire crypto investment is a small percentage of my net worth. I am in hive to see the success of an social experiment and to participate in a grass root level Venture Capital project on the blockchain. I am happy and fortunate to be here.

With that personal background, I was approached by several members of POB tribe to look into reward distribution at the tribe. I knew nothing about the tribe, perhaps a month back. I just knew it is just another hive-engine token. There are thousands of them perhaps, and only a handful of them with any use case. This is very standard in crypto. Perfectly normal. Looking at their trending page, I came across an account called Lucylin, which posts regular content there. I checked the content, it was not my taste, but I didn't find anything particularly wrong with it in the beginning. However, then I looked at the rewards, and the account pulls 1000 POB/week, and very modest amount from hive.

Disagreement on rewards, is a common practice on DPOS governance that we use to mitigate the lopsided distribution of token. It is stake weighted but 2nd layer tokens are immune to it. So when I wanted to adjust the reward, I can't do it on the 2nd layer (POB) because I do not have any POB stake. So I communicated the problem, and downvoted the posts. Immediately, the posts turned into rants. I mentioned that I do not support rants for rewards and if that continues I will adjust them as I see fit on the hive level, because this is the only level I have any ability to do anything.

Lopsided distribution of rewards on POB continued for months. Complains and hive bashing also continued for months. The tone was identical:

  1. DV was being used as attack
  2. Rewards are being taken away

This is a common item we hear and we try to explain. So I tried to explain in many places, multiple times and to several individuals, who just fails to understand a fundamental concept of DPOS blockchain based on reward pool system:

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By this time, even the project manager of POB is involved and commenting. But unfortunately he has no understanding of how DPOS works either.

Trying to Invest in POB

At this point, I understood, that I won't be able to do any meaningful governance by staying in the top layer on hive. So I thought about investing in the POB token. I know several others have done it and looked at the basic token economics which I explained on this post below:

https://peakd.com/hive-150329/@azircon/pob-token-learning-a-new-hive-ecosystem

I made my intention clear to the project manager @proofofbrainio and even offered to purchase POB token publicly and from the secondary market. My offer was rejected, which is perfectly logical. He specifically asked me to buy the POB from the open market. So I did, and power up all of it.

Aftermath

At the same time, this long convoluted conversation evolved, which even involves blocktrades. I am thankful for his time. Blocktrades and I were both asked, why are we downvoting certain post? We explained. And we also mentioned, that we don't have to explain, we are doing it out of courtesy. Nothing got through. In the meantime, even blocktrade had to point out that @proofofbrainio is supporting a spammer, reward optimizer and a self-proclaimed adult-entertainer (male prostitute?).

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Mind you, I have nothing against prostitution. It is an ancient profession. But perhaps not very profitable, at least not for this individual. Also it is illegal in most places in the United States. From Wikipedia below:

Prostitution is illegal in the vast majority of the United States as a result of state laws rather than federal laws. ... Currently, Nevada is the only U.S. jurisdiction to allow legal prostitution – in the form of regulated brothels – the terms of which are stipulated in the Nevada Revised Statutes.

This is the comment lucylin made, I have no idea what to believe or how to believe...

Just for record (it's already on the blockchain), I (we) were involved in the adult entertainment industry for many years.
(...What some people with no actual life experiences may call 'fantastical', is 'just another day in the office' for others).

Steem/ Hive was a new avenue to explore.

Its the last segment that I am interested in. He is here, in his opinion, for additional avenue...(revenue?). This led me to believe the reason for the abuse of the reward pool.

Financial Elements

In the meantime I have asked several people to look under the hood on POB publicly on this post:

https://peakd.com/hive-150329/@azircon/a-request-to-look-under-the-hood-of-pob

They did! I am thankful to you all for taking the time and helping me out. We learned the main account which holds most of the POB tokens vote following a trail by calumam, and the details are as follows:

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Source: @onealpha

There is nothing wrong with that. But when you consider 26% of the stake going to a few account (just check POB trending to find out which) that is significant centralization. Here is how the main account votes (20% of nearly 100K POB stake goes to 2 individuals):

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Source: @onealpha

Also in the meantime, Marky pointed out the danger of centralization of these HE token, which we are all aware of, but haven't been on the receiving end. Here is Marky, the top comment on my post from yesterday:

I am not a stake holder in pob, as a second layer token with any stake my opinion is fairly meaningless.

I have not looked into how large stake holders vote on pob as there is nothing I can do about it anyway. I do however frequently report obvious garbage I come across.

In general a tribe can do whatever they want and those actions will influence if people invest or not.

None of this is new, but it must be said in this way so a potential investor can understand the danger.

Danger

I have now been muted on POB, after making one post. There is an explanation given (though not required). I did received one upvote from onealpha on my first and only post :)

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As you can see, the project manager continues to repeat himself without understanding the basics of DPOS, which is

REWARD CAN'T BE TAKEN AWAY, AS IT WAS NOT YOURS IN THE FIRST PLACE UNTIL PAYOUT

So, back to financial aspects. My 440 POB bought 2 days back is wasted. Because, I can't curate POB tribe, and my posts won't be visible within POB tribe. Obviously, I won't earn any POB token. This is a common thing in 2nd layer tokens. I have seen it used many times, effectively against spammers. But never seen it used against an investor.

Aggy, the project manager of Hive-Engine mentioned to me personally...

Sounds like they made a bad busines decision.

I have to agree with Aggy!

But I was still curious why a project manager will do such a thing to support a single individual who is a self-proclaimed male prostiture or 'adult entertainer' and here on hive for 'bit of additional revenue. So I checked on @proofofbrainio 's previous comments

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Please understand, I am sensitive to mental health issues. However, I am not a mental health professional. If someone has mental health issue, he/she should seek immediate medical help.

My only concern as an investor in POB is that if my project manager on a centralized project has mental health problems he can take unstable and questionable business decisions without consulting his investors. Do I want to invest is such a project?

Answer

NO, I do not think POB is a project I like to invest money in.

I think my money is NOT safe there. The project is largely a spam. I will be selling all my tokens if I can, if there is any price left by the time all of you finished selling.

Future Learning

I have downvoted to take the rep of @proofofbrainio account to below zero. This is commonly done to a spammer. Because we do not have any other tool available at this point. That is the only way I can caution potential investors the dangers towards this project.

I have discussed this with blocktrades that his team is working on a new rep system, that can be potentially more effective than downvote. I have high hopes for that implementation. I do not think this is anything unusual that has happened to me, this is perfectly normal, and I have no regret of any financial loss. My only concern is, I do not want this to happen to any smaller honest investor.

What you do with your POB token is your personal call. This is my opinion and I have taken my personal action.

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I was Bullied and harraased by lucylin and His crew. He even made creepy jokes about the fact that people like me should be cut from their mouth to their intestines. Proifofbrainio and Vem did nothing. Hivewatchers came after me. Finally, after His threats stopped now my account is blacklisted for rephrasing a part of one of my articles. No plagiarism. Nothing Bad. I sold all my Pobs a while back. A few K. I got out of that Nest. And then I got blacklisted.
I am done. Hive is rooten.
@azircon bravo for writing this article!
ps. Check the company and the Man behind POB ownership

I can see them making 'creepy jokes'; they do the same to me as well :) He wrote several whole posts on me especially, and also on blocktrades and acid. Please don't let that bother you. Trolls are common over here and all over the internet.

I personally do not know you and do not know your background, so I have no way to judge your past actions and anyone else's past actions towards you. But generally what I can say, if you are honest, you can hang around hive blockchain. We can't promise any earning, but no social network promise any earning either.

We are looking into the 'person' behind POB.

Thank you for the comment.

@regenerette #6111 on discord
I think you will be interested in what I have found out

You have not written this CNBC article. You are now permanently blacklisted because it's the second time. The reason is explained in our comment under your post:
https://hive.blog/leofinance/@regenerette/basketball-and-crypto-in-the-blockchain#@hivewatcher/quwvr8

Paraphrasing a Content in my own words is not and never will be plagiarism. It’s your rules that manipulate Hive to your pleasing. This article of @azircon is about Lucylin. This is the second time you are obviously on His side and keep me blacklisted.
I couldn’t care less about your blacklist. I cared about Hive. You have no idea. But with you in it, everything is manipulated. Heil, @hivewatchers!

yuck why would anyone even say such things. Discussing and sad to see that. It's so freakin annoying though that all this dumb drama crap keeps flowing around and is what gets upvoted the most. There better content out there and this dumb drama battling needs to stop on here it's totally centralizing hive and I see the SAME freakin issues happening as they did on Steem. Starting to wonder if the people (witnesses) are the real ones to start blaming here. It's annoying AF to me that this continues.

well, hivewatchers, designated by our witnesses allow hate speech, vote and comment farming and much more

On the other side: They found a stupid reason to blacklist me for good after Powering down and selling all my Pobs. Each time There’s some negativity about lucylin, hivewatchers punish me and others. Nice one. I had done a lot of things for Hive outside Hive in the last 6-7 months. I think Hive doesn’t Belong to the people. It belongs to these players.
Who cares about people like me?
Nobody if the stake is not high.
Is this the power of the community? Is this Descentralization? Clearly not.

So I am out of Their way for now since There’s nothing I can do to stay in Hive and function properly in this environment. And since this whole Hive community just allows this type of behavior, it means they comply with it.

While several POB members crib about censorship & dictatorship on Hive, muting someone from the whole platform/tribe is actually censorship. Downvoting is not though! I have said it previously, it's such a negative word, we should change it to something like 'Rewards Pool Replenisher'. 😂

Anyway, I was baffled to see Lucylin's rants getting tons of rewards from @proofofbrainio being the largest stakeholder on the platform. He upvotes and supports a lot of good stuff too but then it is within a circle of specific people which is not great practice as a tribe owner. Since it's a new tribe, I can understand why that circle is small right now and many of these rewards are going to responsible people/projects who are further helping with the distribution.

This whole Lucylin scenario made me sick to the core not because I am jealous that he is getting more rewards than me but because he eating away too much from the community's reward pool. I spend a lot of time creating my posts. Idea, research, drafting, proofreading, editing, graphics - All these activities take so much time yet I get no upvotes while lucy takes them all. Lol, jk! I get upvotes for my hard work from good peeps but I would get more in rewards if folks like Lucy don't get overrewarded. I am sure there are many people like me, but most of us will not be able to do anything about it since we are too small.

I don't want this tribe to die since the concept is genius and @proofofbrainio must have thought a lot about it before kicking things off. Actual lives are getting changed from this and I see many good projects popping out within the community. At the same time, now I understand the risks of Hive Tribes in general. They are too centralized (especially when they are new) which is a huge problem for any stakeholder/investor IMO. Thanks a ton, @azircon for pointing out the problems, risks, and abuses related to Hive & POB. This post is an eye-opener!

In the end, I am hoping this drama to end soon. When egos are hurt and things start to get personal, it's a shitshow for everyone involved.

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Downvoting is not though! I have said it previously, it's such a negative word we should change it to something like 'Rewards Pool Replenisher'. 😂

Negative, but true and meaningful. Calling it something else will not change anything. I prefer honesty and straightforwardness. Lying will not going to help anyone.

It was joke based upon what I felt after observing how downvotes are used by various different people for their own reasons.

'Downvote' is a negative word and it is used negatively by many people when their egos are hurt. Downvote wars are detrimental to the system and it pushes good people away. All the parties involved and sometimes not involved, lose. I am yet to see a peaceful resolution of any of them. That's why it's not a perfect system.

At the same time, it is the best system to stop the abusers from abusing the platform and adjust rewards from over-rewarded crap. That's more important so 'downvotes' must be welcomed by all. If someone with a large stake is downvoting out of revenge, they are only killing their own investment in the long term if they continue doing it. If someone is downvoting to stop abuse or to adjust rewards, they are doing a charity to everyone on the network including themselves.

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lol I like that, thanks for regenerating the reward pool mana!

Haha, glad you like it @acidyo. You are most welcome.

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I can speak for my own voting actions which is not the topic of the article and I do not look at the author before I read the post. I judge the post on the post alone. I'll vote it up independently.

That's the smartest way to go about it @leprechaun. I do something similar with my votes!

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We changed it to downvote from flag because of the feelers crowd.

Haha. Couldn't have done a worse job. A 'flag' sounds better. A white flag representing peace and all the feel-good things. 😂

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They didn't stop crying.

It's ironic this post now won't be appearing on POB, which is where it needs to be seen the most!

My impressions are that it's a cliquey place consisting of your inner circle (jerk) and then a lot of 'cap doffers' angling for votes.

There are a few decent people I know who have made pretty significant investments in POB - @scholaris might want to read this, if he picks up tags or not I don't know!

Of course the person's reaction we're all really interested in is 1A's ;- he could half the token price in a month if he decided to get out!

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Hello and good evening. Thank you very much for the mention. I was fascinated by one of Azircon's earlier posts regarding research into POB. I was awaiting the results of his requested analyses as a means to determine several courses of action (i.e., stay, leave, work to changes things, etc.).

I am currently undecided for a couple of reasons. The first is the presentation of data. I felt that what was presented is accurate. I'm familiar with some of Azircon's posts on PLG and the handling of fraud from his articles. If, through his evaluation, he deemed the tables he displayed accurate, I believe it. After all, it must be reproducable. He has the resources.

What I'm concerned about is the interpretation. I'm not as experienced as some on the blockchain. I would have expected to see an equivalent comparison between, let's say, POB and HIVE. Here's a list of POB stakeholders and a list of equivalent HIVE or tribe stakeholders. "This is the kind of distribution we feel is valid." That would probably have sealed the deal for me.

Then there are other things too. Things I don't know about. This thing between Azircon, Lucylin, and POB on the surface appears just toxic. The conversation between him and whatsup in the comments? What was that about? I thought constructive questions were raised. Only rewards distribution and evidence of legal voting are displayed. My personal investment choice in POB is now in a gray area because of Azircon (which is good), but at this time it isn't enough to change.

I always liked Leo Finance, you know? That's a legit group. Only finance. That's the way they like it. Khal...Jesus, always on the move. I'm a little sad about not being there often because that's a good crew. The Leo tribe takes care of their own. I also remember reading your earlier posts revise. You wanted to break out. Build your own life and livelihood. You post about it still! I love the level of detail and interaction you bring in your progress.

That's how I feel about POB. At POB, I feel like I can help build something great. Everyone has a positive attitude, but also quite the negative one at times. Almost like a family. Disputes get resolved, and people move on. A few people become enraged at the DV, almost like a Spanish novella. Apparently that's a thing. Markymark or other veterans, at times, jumps into discord and joke around, maybe smack us around a little bit because we need to improve and we're not meeting their expectations. They give great lessons. They speak, we listen, and we learn. Slowly but surely, we improve on our content and engagement.

In summary: Azircon's concerns warrant evaluating changes in behaviors. Data presentation is inconclusive.

However, if it doesn't look good, THEN it might not be good. Right? That approaches regulatory space. You don't mess with that. Fortunately, at least concerning delegations, behaviors started changing this past Sunday with Calumam's change in delegations. I don't think he has any more pending evaluation on how to move forward. I don't know what the final plan is, but they want to meet expectations. They want to align, and I will support them.

Thanks again for the mention Revise. Have a great evening.

Ah you do check your tags I was wondering! I think the Tribes are a great opportunity for people to have a bigger footprint, which I know from LEO feels great, my main reservation with POB is that I'm not 100% sure whose behind it, at least with LEO I can put a face to the project, someone whose prepared to put their actual identity on the line!

I was thinking some comparative data with Hive would be good too - I'm sure there is something out there already that tells us this, I'll dig around, but I've spent way too long on here this a.m. already!

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I concur wholeheartedly with your assessment. It’s always great to know at least the person leading the tribe.

The only reason I was less patient with whatup is because there is a history there. Whatsup was extremely bashful to hive when we separated and kept the opinions that large stakeholders are bad and here to exploit small stakeholders. This is a lie.

Also, although whatsup been around for a long time she fail the grasp the fundamental and philosophical aspects of DPOS. I have tried a lot of explanation to this crowd and ran out of patience....

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However since I have not tried this detail with you, if time permits I am willing to try with you.

We haven't interacted before this week and you keep misrepresenting my position.

Funny, I never interacted with either Donald Trump or Joe Biden; yet I can interpret their position very well :)

Am I communicating here?

How unbelievable that people came to you and asked for your help reviewing the Tribe just as your battle with Lucylin was heating up. Wow, life is so weird sometimes, such a coincidence.

You reviewed the entire Tribe, but only had thoughts about Lucylin and reward distribution in your review?

While he might earn there that's hardly the entire Tribe. I've seen MANY people praising the Tribe and their price has been really good, so that's odd. How did you find their tokenomics? I like their unique approach to the over all cap in tokens? What did you think?

Regarding the MUTE aspect that was an important feature of the tribes so that one angry whale can't ruin an account on a personal grudge or attack an entire community over it. We did have some problems with that kind of behavior in the past. While I agree it isn't censorship or tyranny, it made for a really unpleasant user experience for many.

The idea was Tribes could function how they want and make whatever rules they want and much like Hive - each individual could determine whether or not they would like to participate. In turn if a particular person became a problem for a tribe to the point of being disruptive they could mute or block that individual.

When muted from a community one can still see the posts easily from other front ends, it just doesn't allow your vote to count on their distribution or your posts to show on their front end.

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Under what criteria did you determine @proofofbrainio is a spammer? To me it just seems like an account that was used to manage the tribe?

I don't hold much POB and I have never made a post on it, or used their tag, but it sure is disappointing to see such a popular and successful tribe get such a terrible review on so little information.

I have a feeling they will review the events and determine if they should make any changes and carry on with what seems to be a great little community.

I have made abundantly clear that this post is my opinion.

If you have a different opinion, please write a post about it.

Your tone suggested that I might be 'making up stuff' about 'people came to me' :) I don't have any reason to make anything up. Most plots and screenshots are not mine, rather by 'people'. To me this is not about an individual, but about governance and disproportionate distribution of rewards on a second layer token. The evidence is undeniable.

Under what criteria did you determine @proofofbrainio is a spammer?

Mine. And still I have explained why :) You must read more carefully if you are interested in blockchain governance. Otherwise, I respectfully suggest you tend to your other 99 items of higher priority :)

I will not respond to any of your future comments on this line of reasonsing, because I believe I have couple of my own priorities to attend to.

...I agree it isn't censorship or tyranny,

It is !

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They muted you? This is CENSORSHIP!!

I am going to go to a corner and cry now :)

and also say that this will hinder 'onboarding' new users! LOL

I shall write a post comparing this to Nazism! :0D

I shall write a post comparing this to Nazism! :0D

PLEASE DO THAT !

I am sorely tempted! :OD

Last time I read someone refer to Nazism was @jerrybanfield when he got mad the @dlive curators weren't voting his streams.

You mean that wasn't Nazism? Damn, Nazis and their tricks!

Please do!!

Throw in some references to sexual identity too.

Oh, jeebus!
rofl

They muted who?

:P

I cant answer for fear of being opressed and physically violated by something that happens online.

:OD

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And that is all there is to it.

if you have time, consider reading this book on the world of derivatives...

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No one knows the derivatives market more than Das...

The reason I thought about the book as it started with the famous Donald Rumsfeld quote below.... but Das used it in a different context, of Financial WMDs

because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know

Ive come across that quote before and it still takes quite a few times of reading for both the tounge twisting and the inherent deeper nature of it. I have the book. Downloaded quite a long time ago but i had dropped it as i wasnt reay yet. Hopefully second time is the charm.

All a mess, I understand that everyone has to do their own research on the project where one wants to invest but this post really opens your eyes, you show us a deeper vision of the community, really thx

No problem! I am here to help. I have access to tools and many smart individuals that most casual investors do not. I am happy to share my resources.

Wow, this is really enlightening. It is definitely going to make me rethink what I do with my PoB tokens that I have. I may have to unstake. I know from first hand experience that you usually know what you are talking about! I was already on the moron side of that argument once. Not going to happen again :)

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Yes, I have started unstaking the token. I do not have any hope/expectation that I will get any money back :)

I am comfortable with that.

Most importantly this is a good test on some of the basic flaws of the system, which we will work together to fix it.

I will hold my POB because the ROI is good and i got all from posting :D

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Your token, your call :)

they need also 13 weeks to unstake? :D

I assume it is 4 weeks like most H-E tokens

Ok some have different power downs, i think sport was 52 weeks or something like this.

I just tested it - it is 4 weeks

you know I don't exactly know :)

would be really nice to have some Infopage for tokens on HE :D

It's four. I'm tired of being the fourth largest whale. Maybe I'll buy what you sell.

I know of others who are exploiting POB when they get downvoted. I don't really know what the pros and cons of the token are, but I can earn some of it and I sell about a third of it to fund other things for now. My stake it probably not enough to make much difference to the distribution, but I can reward a few good people.

I'm not really seeing the benefits to these general-purpose tokens apart from working around the HIVE distribution. You can post anything it seems. I don't bother using their site as it's just extra hassle.

Maybe there will be a shakedown of tokens at some point and some will crash.

I sure expect so. We need to keep a close eye into these things. This is our responsibility as a stakeholder. Thank you Steev, I know you are highly diligent on these things, so please continue your help at HiveDR. I appreciate that personally.

Cheers. I do what I can both on dealing with abuse and on helping out the smaller accounts. Both are important tasks. I wish there were less of the former, but it's likely to be a growing problem.

!BEER


Hey @azircon, here is a little bit of BEER from @steevc for you. Enjoy it!

Did you know that you can use BEER at dCity game to **buy dCity NFT cards** to rule the world.

LBI and SPI funds have been dumping it for a few weeks now. It's just a front end with fanboys that will soon forget about it.

Gret post, a lot of good insight. Thanks

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Joseph!! Is that you? Long time no see man!! How are you doing?!

Yeah, I would, it’s nothing but a voting circle and no use case, no niche, no purpose. That’s is worse is the lopsided token distribution without any reason.

What a waste of a good name they squatted.

I have never seemed to have come across @lucylin before stumbling on your post here today.

Since you tagged him or not really, sorry. He or she or even it was not tagged I took the liberty I hope you don't mind on my comment here.

Well anyway I'm digressing. I took a gander at their posts on POB and I don't see anything that seemed out of the ordinary. In fact they were quite entertaining. Kinda funny at times, serious in some and looked like something people would consume on a regular basis.

So I am very new to this whole situation so I will be dumb for this sake. Were you just thinking that since he was getting large amounts of large stake holders to vote for his posts, you decided to take action?

Wait I think I'm messing up my words here.

The centralization was because you were afraid he was going to rule the whole of POB because he posted popular posts? Or something like that and it was not to your liking? because the top stake holders were getting entertained by their posts everyday?

Am I making sense here? or way off left field.

Way off left field :)

But no worries, stick around, if you like, and you will be on base more :)

I agree 100%

looks around, and poops in the corner of the room.

This was probably a nail in the coffin for more investors thinking about getting into this token.

You never know. People make silly mistakes all the time in crypto.

This is a big eye opener. The centralization is what should be avoided.

Thank you for playing your part in protecting the reward pool

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Funny cause they don't like your flags cause they think they are cenchorship ( they are not)

Proceed to censor you on pob by muting you 🤣

LOL! Yeah!

Hey, but I still have my 'freedom of speech', eh? :)

I think your attempt to shame someone in this way...

who is a self-proclaimed male prostitute or 'adult entertainer'

Is shameful. Judging people based on occupation or sexual preference? Which

This point, whether it be fact or not is irrelevant and the attempt to use this as a slur is disgusting.

Whoever this person is matters not, only what effort and or quality they put into posts.

Reward disagreement should be sorted by the community. Too many people here think they're the boss or strive for power, it's pathetic.

You're complaining about seemed rewards? Look at the rest of Hive..you've made a nice wedge from these two posts...who disagrees with your reward and why do you think you deserve it?

Seriously...I'm furious with this . What a fucking bigot!

If people aren't plagiarising or trying to cheat in which case HW gets involved, it's up to the community to deal with anything THEY are not happy with.

Another power tripper ...governance indeed!

Please feel free to disagree. It’s your opinion.

None of this are my comments. I am free to interpret them whichever way I choose. You do the same.

I completely agree with you that this is not about a person. The person got himself into the situation.

This is my last word on this subject to you.

Worry not you bigot, they are not my last words on the subject . Personal attacks of that manner are not acceptable on this platform. I will put a report into @hivewatchers

You do that!! 😂

huh? why would personal attacks be a hivewatchers issue or not acceptable on this platform?

If you don't find them acceptable yourself then mute the person doing it.

I thought there were certain community guidelines but it appears not. It was the subject matter of the attack I take issue with but as usual, most people choose their side based on the size of the wallet.

As for muting, it is akin to looking out of the window, seeing an old lady being mugged and then closing the curtains.

May I assume that you found his comments suggesting someone is a scammer and should be admonished simply because they're a male prostitute who needs an alternative form of income acceptable as I see you haven't muted him, yet your own community forbids content of a controversial, sexual or political nature. Do you see why I get so easily confused? People constantly appear to apply different standards to different situations. It's a strange place is Hive.

Anyway, I always appreciate your input so thank you for dropping by and best wishes.

I don't think that's what he said, I remember him saying he has nothing against the oldest profession in the world. You seem to be making it all about it for some reason. He's saying he tried to scam the network by pretending to be someone he's not, a young female asian prostitute or sex worker like a kid would pretend to be a girl in an online game to get themselves more ingame currency from 99% of the other players being boys.

That's why I haven't muted him and no, it has nothing with my own community to do.

Tarazkp has put me straight on the scammy fucker, so thank you.

My objection was to azircons use of language, creating a connection between their actions and their sexuality to create a logical fallacy which I still find repugnant.

The other distasteful aspect to all this is the involvement of ex or not, spammer turned power crazed, hypocrite and idol of the masses, Alfa. I bet he's not powering down as a matter of principle. With his carefully designed in advance voting patterns...

Apologies for dragging you away from your never ending curation duties! Best wishes

voting power's done for today, been finding some extra time to engage a bit more again as some of the initiatives with ocd are coming into place.

But yeah, I guess it could've been misinterpreted a lot more if you didn't know about the origin fake intro post.

Certain combinations of letters or sound waves which someone considers offensive are not part of our scope

Just so you know, Lucylin has said that he considers paying poor people for sex so they can put food on the table as charity work. The conversation is on the blockchain from probably somewhere in mid-2018. I assume he moved to SE Asia for a particular reason.

I am pretty sure he wasn't a prostitute himself, but I suspect he was a pimp.

His information is often delusional and contradictory across time. After hundreds of hours of interaction in comments with him over the space of 2+ years, I tuned him out as it was a complete waste of my time. He is dishonest, untrustworthy and a blatant troll.

Now that I appreciate. Thank you @tarazkp. They are not a person I've had many interactions with although did read them from time to time and quite enjoyed their content.

Doesn't change the fact I think @azircon is bang out of order but certainly sets me straight about the character and the reward farming so thanks again.

It was the Frot connection which I couldn't figure as I've always had him pegged as an obnoxious scumball...anyway.

Have a lovely evening :-)

Say I am "bang out of order" to Taraz a few more time, and he will send me a good Finnish vodka by mail :) :)

"Please understand, I am sensitive to mental health issues."
"I have downvoted to take the rep of @proofofbrainio account to below zero."

I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem like you're very sensitive to mental health issues. I’m a bit taken aback by this. Lots of perfectly capable people have had or deal with depression.

Absolutely!

But hopefully in those cases that medical condition didn’t impact their clients.

Personally I am sensitive to mental health problem, but if it impacts decision making and basic understanding of blockchain from a project manager of a tribe, I am uneasy to put my money into it.

Yet knowing that this person has had issues with depression you still felt it okay to downvote their rep to -3 and effectively hide any conversation from them. If you don't see an issue with that, then I don't think you have any sensitivity to mental health issues at all.

I've just gone through some of the accounts last comments, having to reveal each individual comment you downvoted, and I don't even see spam. I see discussion and each comment being unique.

And incidentally, yes, many people are quite capable of not letting their depression be apparent and do fantastic jobs for their clients, so I'm not about to judge someone's ability just because it's been disclosed that they have had depression.

Again, in this case that is inaccurate.

I am the client here. I didn't get the service I requested.

That account is a ‘front’ it's not a personal account. I don't know if you understand the difference. The reason I want it negative is because the same way we handle spammers on hive, I like to provide caution to an average user when they come across that account.

There is no other feature available to me that I can accomplish this on hive.

I use downvote extensively but as it is suggested on the discussion maybe we should change the name to “replenishment of rewardpool” :)

Now on a more personal note to you specifically @minismallholding; I have noticed that you take DV negatively and many others do too. I like to make it abundantly clear that it is a very useful tool, and the only tool we have to protect users like you. You seem to care about your rewards (I don’t), but without people like me downvoting, your dollar value reward will be cut in half or less with a week.

I get no financial or social benefit for doing what I do. I hope you understand that.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of all of the 2nd layer tokens(Communitites aka tribes), and I admit I myself still don't fundamentally understand them just yet either.

We are not clients in any of these tribes unless specified in some way and they didn't promise us any services. We are users of the platform they made. Since they have tools Hive Engine made for muting/getting rid of curating(I didn't know that existed until today). Clients would be serviced and our needs taken care of by some sort of Customer Service or Manager or something, we also don't have any agreement with any 2nd layer token creator to be their clients in any capacity I am aware of(are their tribes making these promises?), just users of their Community if they decide to let us into their Community. The Hive Engine code allows them to not allow entry/use.

It seems the Hive Engine tools allow a lot of things that are potentially pretty bad(as markymark recently posted some good posts and details). Tools are neutral though, a screwdriver can be used to fix something or can be used to murder an innocent person. I don't see an incentive at present for people to misuse muting people en masse, because if a creator of a tribe does it could potentially ruin their reputation/community if they take actions the community doesn't agree with, or it could potentially strengthen their community and make it better.

I am not quite sure how to think about the ability of someone to curate in a Community being removed. My thoughts on that before I knew it was a thing was that as long as the creator of that tribe has enough stake they could just upvote something that was getting downvoted and that's how to solve for that issue, this "muting of curating" adds a different level I am not sure is actually needed. For instance, if things got so bad and a Whale(let's call him Justin Sun") was screwing over the entire platform people can fork off and not give Justin Sun any Hive. I was of the same mind on these 2nd layer tokens, if someone came in and was ruining everything that tribe could just tell everyone "hey we are relaunching our new token and air dropping you all at a 1 to 1 ratio, except for that whale who is downvoting us".

Whales on 2nd layer tokens can easily lose all of their investment if a token creator decides they are starting up a new project and tells people to stop using the current one. Can a creator of the token shut down the website? For instance, can Khal just shut down leofinance website and nobody can do anything anymore?

If not, he could also just mute everyone which means nobody can post or curate/earn anymore so now even if the website is up and running nobody can do anything. That makes the token worthless. Then he could say "we are air dropping Leo2 token at a 1 to 1 ratio to those who were on the Good List, Naughty List gets nothing". By doing that he could crash the entire market of the coin as well.

There are some major implications and problems I am seeing with 2nd layer tokens.

We were talking about rep, not rewards, I thought. Isn't that why you said you downvoted the account?

Anyway, that was never my point. I was trying to point out the contradiction between saying you understand mental health issues and then saying you bashed that same person's rep below 0.

You'd make a great politician, btw.

I love to be a politician someday! Thank you for the recognition.

Again...and for the last time... keyword: 'person'.

proofofbrainio is not a person it is a FRONT.

I wanted to reduce the REP of that FRONT for the reason of SAFETY to POTENTIAL INVESTORS OF THE POB TOKEN.

There is still a person behind that front, though. Just like there is always a person behind the wheel of a car.

Is there such a thing as computer rage? 🤔

You'd think he'd use his main account to go around chasing drama and defending a ranter regarding the Hive rewards pool in that case and keep his tribe account for tribe business.

Sigh!

“If you can't understand it without an explanation, you can't understand it with an explanation.”

― Haruki Murakami, 1Q84

Try the book sometime, if you find time!

I think that's a cop out on @minismallholding az you posted spam and even wrote it was spam and all the whales upvoted it. You didn't decline the rewards you accepted them.

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My friend, me and you have our disagreements but I do defend you in some of these actions but not all. I understand you are trying to make the block chain a better place but sometimes a little to heavy handed.

I agree with your Hive flags but it did appear to go a little over the top at times. You understand the block chain better than me but I and I know many others would dispute the "rewards weren't yours until pay out" it is akin to working a job for a week and at the end your employer removing your wage stating that it wasn't yours because you haven't received it yet. Not to mention down voting has benefits for bigger accounts.

I think the entry into PoB purely to down vote could be seen as negative. Ascertaining dominance over a community. Yes there are also issues in PoB but they are everywhere. I have seen whales support other whales for wrong posts which they too even state were not correct.

I do feel for you in this incident as perhaps you shouldn't have been muted and it's not your fault. There are no conflict resolution processes. Today's issue is PoB tomorrow could be the next community. Something needs to be in place which is great that Blocktrades is working on something.

I don't agree with you leveling PoB main account on Hive purely to a disagreement and because you were muted. Others are muted from other accounts and that is a little over the top and could be seen as abuse also.

This post reads well but you also attack the person's character, I read a few of the posts in question and it did appear that there were possibly some health issues. I know alot of people may not care but it's a hard place to put someone in and everyone could see it was having a health impact on the person.

My opinion is that there needs to be a minimum and maximum payout amount. From where I sit I can see ALOT of people abusing the network including whales. Just because some invested in the Sun take over doesn't give them more power than anyone else.

I've been here since 2017 and as someone who does purchase Hive at times I have been put off. Mainly because it feels like this is just a platform for whales and not new investors. I put $8000 into CUB (which no doubt you received part of as I have rode it to 0) I didn't put it into Hive because I don't feel it is a good investment at times when I put effort into blogs, research, links and I am "muted" by some.

It really feels that there are two rules.

Hive needs change or something else will take its place.

Again, you're not fully wrong in this case.

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"rewards weren't yours until pay out" it is akin to working a job for a week and at the end your employer removing your wage stating that it wasn't yours because you haven't received it yet

I think this is a false analogy.

The deal with an employer is that you get paid your wage in return for completing some work.

The deal on Hive is that a post receives a payout proportional to the value assigned to that post by the community. The community has 7 days to reach consensus on post value. The value of a post is only resolved at time of payout.

An upvote on hive does not immediately entitle you to the projected payout that vote carries.

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Some people keep repeating that downvoters would benefit, but nobody can explain how. But keep on parroting bullshit, it's a good filter on who to take serious, and it saved me reading the rest of your comment.

I don't understand the comment you've made. Down voters don't benefit from down votes.

It may have been a misunderstanding, sorry for the tone then. What did you mean by this?

Not to mention down voting has benefits for bigger accounts.

Sorry I have gotten my posts mixed up I thought this was else where.

All good alot has changed since this day.

:)

I'm happy to see hive has a high distribution today. So we see things like this less likely on hive.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

yes, virtually impossible on hive :)

I think your impetus is ill aimed.

Lucy can't control who does, and doesn't, vote for him.
The people that do vote for him control that.
Your argument is more with them.

Just as @sweetsssj couldn't control who voted for her, though her voters were likely won over by her world class beauty and outsized blogging skillz keeping the competition tough at the top, neither can Lucy.
I'd suggest dialogue before nuking his voters, but I can be diplomatic like that.

Oh we will talk offline on sweetsssj :) :)

When do we get a humor coin?
If I had the BEE, I'd create a coin, pick some hashtags, not tell anybody, and see who the lottery winners will be.
Kinda like they did with PAY tokens.

I'm betting when defi finds out we have no fees, and all the features, they will ape on like they did erc-20 coins.

Dm me on discord, or use privnote.com to make a link, and comment that link with a tag to ping me.

You're actually making contradictory claims here:

REWARD CAN'T BE TAKEN AWAY, AS IT WAS NOT YOURS IN THE FIRST PLACE UNTIL PAYOUT
So, back to financial aspects. My 440 POB bought 2 days back is wasted. Because, I can't curate POB tribe, and my posts won't be visible within POB tribe. Obviously, I won't earn any POB token. This is a common thing in 2nd layer tokens. I have seen it used many times, effectively against spammers. But never seen it used against an investor.

So if rewards aren't taken away because they aren't yours until payout, your POB tokens are not wasted because your future rewards from posting and curating aren't yours until they pay out.

Whoever is running POB decided to not let you participate in the curation elements any more. You can still speculate on the market value of the tokens (or not).

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

LOL! Neal, you misunderstood :). I bought 400 tokens from the open market. I don't think I have any POB rewards ever, as I never posted on POB. Get it?

Yes, you are right. I can speculate on the market if I choose to.

So, no, I didn't contradict. All I meant, if market sold off, after this. I may not get any value by the time I power down, which is perfectly fine by me :)

I don't think I have any POB rewards ever, as I never posted on POB. Get it?

I do not, because you wrote the following in this post:

I have now been muted on POB, after making one post. There is an explanation given (though not required). I did received one upvote from onealpha on my first and only post :)

Now which is the truth?

The single post that I published on the tribe is not paid out yet. So no reward.

It's all on the blockchain... look around and you can verify.

Anything else I can help you with?

You, blocktrades, smooth and few others, by 'adjusting rewards" are building a beast (POB - no governance, one person can do anything, etc...). You will see, more and more people will be converting HIVE to POB, just to support authors like lucylin, and it will be all your fault. Instead of searching for a solution, like themarkymark is doing, you are taking the problem to personal level. Downvoting, this post should be tagged with #proofofnobrain

Thank you! Please feel free to build your own blockchain, or jump to whichever blockchain you prefer, if you feel that we are not doing a good job. Thank you for the downvote. I appreciate that. I am being honest to a polish my friend:) One of my close friend from my childhood was Marek, yeah that is a polish name. I honestly appreciate the downvote.

We are working on a solution. Marky is part of the team too and my friend, just like you.

Geez, 26% is no joke...

On a token that is priced north of 1.6 hive!

Thin market, through, that's the good news.

I wasn't far off then when I compared their allocation to Satoshi mining Bitcoin in the early days.

Dude! LOL

PoB creator gets 10 percent beneficiary so he will have 2.1 mil PoB at the end. He will have more than satoshi in 4 or 5 years. Satoshi has 1 mill or so.

The beneficiary from what I was told directly from owner is 100% to fund proposals, none of it goes to the team.

Whether or not that is honored is really concerning given we have no idea who is behind PoB, it is an anonymous person with no post history or comment history we know of giving his word. From what I have seen he is just doing this all solo without a team(that may change or have changed recently not sure).

This all really concerns me because myself and @v4vapid are working on making our token. We have long established reputations and interactions with many people over our 4 years here and want to ensure we have a good project that gives people value and fills our target niche.

I really appreciate your posts and insights into communities because our team is learning a lot of stuff we didn't know about the issues with these tribes, the info coming out about how owners can mint all tokens in 1 second, or mute a person or choose to mute everyone(which would crash the market for a coin) is crazy. I had no idea this type of nonsense could happen on Hive Engine tokens. I understand having the mute function for disallowing spammers/scammers/bad stuff from being posted/commented, but I don't like how the creator can mute someone from upvoting/downvoting. That is easily solvable by having some semi-centralized stake in the beginning and also having good air drops that distribute to the community you want to attract and making those people whales/dolphins/minnows, and curating a lot of people who would bring good culture to the project, of which I am not seeing happen on PoB. We are taking our thing very seriously and are manually vetting over 8,000+ accounts and checking to see if they meet our guidelines on getting the air drop.

It looks to me that PoB creator is in way over his head and has not done years of manual curation or had a project like this before, or even really thought about tokenomics very much. For the IW we had rules and standards for curating and try not to curate one person for too much and all the time as to help spread it around better. PoB needs a lot of help with a lot of things, especially PR right now. Very bad optics all around and I am saddened to see this situation happening. I don't agree with the muting of azircon, PoB creator simply could just upvote whatever post azircon was downvoting if he wanted to neutralize it, azircon only had like 400 PoB or so from what I saw so it would be like a 2% upvote to counter

I show that the PoB owner has a balance of 82,186.12 POB Staked and 8,618.64629469 POB Unstaked. Over the course of 12 years bitcoin is at 18,738,312 BTC. If he is getting 10% + curation rewards, he will have a little over 850k to 900k PoB at the end of year 4, and a little over 1.9million or 2 million at end of year 12 if he keeps it all + curation rewards.

https://hive-engine.com/?p=balances&a=proofofbrainio

https://www.proofofbrain.io/@proofofbrainio/transfers

image.png

Sorry for such a long comment reply to your short one, I just find this subject fascinating and am getting carried away lol.

My two cents...
Sounds like a lot of butt hurt individuals, on both sides of the spectrum.

Am a small fish so I don't know which side of the fence is greener and all of you are way too fucken smart for me.

Every where I step it feels like I am going to step on a poop mine.

And who dafuq is that guest-123 LOL nice spamming dude

Looks like yet another failed project.. what exactly needs to happen before you all finally embrace bitcoin myk.i guess it wont be much longer anyway before most projects start falling apart.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Nice piece ✍️

Sheesh! in five years, the wittiest and more facetious financial post I've read on the blockchain so far!

Finances

I will take that as a compliment!

Is kinda annoying when you see scammy people successfully get the attention that they don't really deserve.
The tribe Musicforlife was started about in the same time, we are trying to create and a ecosystem and give as many usecase for our token.
We have vftlab.finance the one of the first defi like system on the hive blockchain. We have vibes.show a calendar for the people that want to sell tickets for events and get paid in hive tokens. We are now starting a radio station for the community artists. You can use the vibes token to buy cards in the rising stars game. And still the price is 8 times lower then pob...
Maybe you guys are looking only for things that are spoiled in gold.
We need to do big numbers few days on the market to get your attentions and consider vibes a good investment?

This is an important post. I say this as someone who has been working hard to grow the tribe in a good direction. I don't think everything that you raised is a cause for alarm, distribution is an ongoing issue, but should become less of one as time goes on and the platform matures)... but the fact that you were muted by the tribe leader certainly is a cause for concern (especially given markymark's post yesterday). If I want to power up and downvote some people to kingdom come... I should be able to.

Thank you for posting.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Lol. Just when I thought it was the one to pay attention to. The crypto space is more fragile than my fucking ego. Thank you for the heads up... now to unstaking that 231 POB I just staked recently. Sigh.

It is good to read a diplomatic post here. You express your opinion rather objectively. Hive is a learning process. But it is good to read a personal opinion that is factual and polite within all the noise you come across when you stumble over posts and comments as a neutral user without being involved.

Nawlins?! No one in their right brain mutes Nawlins.

I think the goal of Proof of Brain being a better distribution than Hive attacks people who disagreed with the token distribution of Hive and Steem and it seems like the this feeling was what motivated the founder to begin with. So this lends itself to posts getting rewarded a lot for bitching and complaining about Hive and Steem when we have real problems in the world. Including a country that is as big as Europe but with even less civil liberties than the dictatorships of World War II.

One of the things we disagree with is the ability of larger stake holders to override our votes to others. Down-voting gives others a veto on upvotes making an affect. This is why I don't power up Hive. If I were to power up 5,000 Hive tomorrow what kind of impact could I make? Whatever it is it could be taken away with a down vote.

Yes, I agree. However, that is the way stake based voting works.

Powering up 5000 hive will not give you any governance ability, if that is what you are after.

I disagree that POB has a 'better' distribution, because it is laughable and a lie :)

The main trail votes only 31 accounts in last 7 days...

https://hive.blog/hive-150329/@onealfa/distribution-a-1-task

if that is not lopsided distribution, I don't know what is!

I DO NOT reward rants. I believe rants should not be rewarded. This is my personal opinion.

Azircon, there is actually an information you're missing here. The main trail votes were led by Calumam, Calumam took a short break and that was why he didn't vote a lot of posts. Before the break, Calumam (and thus, the trail) was voting way too many posts and authors than this. Please I would like you to make a correction now that you have this info, it can only be the right thing to do.

To support what I've just said here with charts and graphs is a little much for me to do right now, I apologise, but I'd point to the #pob-wotw tag, check all the posts that have been made under that tag over the months you'd find the trails' votes on them a great lot of times. (I point to this tag because that's where Proofofbrain Community's most quality posts usually fall on)

What I can't wrap my head around is why an investor who put actual dollars into a project gets kicked out in favour of someone who milks the reward pool?
It is a weird world mate

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

You might me right, you might be wrong my friend (I am also no financial advisor) - nothing in life is save, also on other tribes and on Hive in general mate. I like you a lot but I might see this a little bit different but I also had hardly any time to follow any drama on the chain due to real life things. Personally I would have probably communicated concerns without looking at personal health issues but that is just my opinion. Back to Rabona.