Get Rid of the CONVERGENT CURVE ASAP
I've always hated the convergent curve.
I hated everything about the new economic incentives:
- Free downvotes (will be sold)
- Increased curation to 50/50
- Decreased author reward to 50/50 (same thing)
- 10% inflation to dev fund (will be exploited)
- Convergent curve (barf)
As it turns out, free downvotes have been absolutely amazing. No one sells downvotes because even though it's a free resource no one wants to start a flag war on accident. Selling downvotes has negative EV (estimated value) because no matter how much you sell them for the chance of that Karma coming back to haunt you is high. Thus far free-downvotes have eliminated the a huge majority of the garbage on the platform and turned upvote bots into curation bots.
Win/win.
Recently @blocktrades has announced a huge change to the way curation works, which effectively removes the competitive nature of it (that rewards bots) and turns it into a flat kickback for the first two hours. This is going to be an amazing change for Hive that will more mimic networks like LEO that have tested the kickback and have great success.
So already two out of four of the mechanics I was strongly opposed to have become net gains in my opinion. The Dev fund is still a huge wildcard, especially considering we are siphoning the ninjamine through it:
Never send a Human to do a Hobbit's job.
IMO the ninja mine should have obviously been destroyed. If we need more money for the dev fund we can just cross that bridge when we get there and print more inflation. It's not hard. Having 80M Hive just sitting around getting pumped through the dev fund isn't the best idea.
Regardless of all that, it actually won't be that hard to turn the dev fund into a net gain, even if millions of dollars get wasted. It only takes one good project to make up for a dozen bad ones, just ask any venture capitalist. I'm not too worried about it yet, but I think downvotes on proposals (and maybe even witnesses) should be on option eventually.
Forget everything I just said!
Because today I ran across this little gem:
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@tarazkp/comment-upvotes-and-curved-downvotes
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@tarazkp/autovoter-maximizers-or-content-patrons
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@blocktrades/qqti3n
Fucking awesome.
Man Hive is killing it. Getting rid of the convergent curve and fixing the gamification of curation in the same HardFork? Yes please. Sign me up. I'm here for it.
As someone who's constantly upvoting comments, those upvotes are about to double in strength due to this change. That's right, you currently get hit with a huge 50% penalty for upvoting low payout content. Apparently that will no longer be the case. Good shit.
It's all coming together, boys and girls!
This is the best time to be making changes like this: when we are in a mega-bubble year and about to attract thousands of new users. Now those new users can write some comments and have a way higher chance of getting upvoted.
Yield farming is in, and anyone that can come to Hive an earn an income (no matter how small) is going to notice what we have going on here. A little bit of good faith can go a long way to attracting capital to the network. The ability to earn crypto without having to invest is a huge advantage of the proof-of-brain ecosystem that very few other networks possess. We are filling an incredibly profitable niche.
Reverse conversions (Hive >> HBD)
Also let's not forget that reverse conversions from Hive to HBD (5% burn fee) are also going to roll out, so theoretically we'll be able to much better maintain HBD's peg to the dollar and stop breaking the inflation schedule. This should greatly increase the demand for HBD and pump all that value directly into Hive by utilizing this burn mechanic.
Conclusion
The good news upon good news just keeps rolling in.
I can barely keep up.
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I can't even state how much I massively agree on how important upvotes on good comments are for new players. I'm sure, like everyone, the first few months posting on this platform my posts were rarely upvoted, I just wasn't really followed... but I got so many decent and generous upvotes on comments I put good effort into, and it really did keep me around. It's not just a money thing... proper percentage voting was unlocked at 500SP and so there really is a drive to get out there to comment and make friends.
Hive really is super exciting at the moment, it feels like every week there's something brand new to be pumped about.
*Upvotes semi-unironically.
Hahaha, and honestly it was you and the Taskmaster that were doing so much of the comment upvoting back then too...
Same here. My comments were making much more than my posts, yet I could no longer upvote comments on my posts. So my upvote was worth nothing, but my vp went down just as fast as it had before. The mathematicians got too big for their britches.
When I first started out, I rocketed through the initial reputation numbers simply because I spent a lot of time commenting and getting upvoted on those comments. Comment upvoting is crucial to newbies. Also why I love @dustbunny and @dustsweeper programs.
!BEER
thanks for mentioning my lovely little bunny here... it's a good heads-up for me... sounds like I'll have to scrape that carefully coded convergent linear crap from the dust calculation soon!
I am so grateful to all the people who understand how the technicalities work, because I do not. It's a good thing I am not in charge of coding anything. 😅
lol... yeah... the convergent linear algorithm was quite headache inducing... in all honesty, I'm almost a bit sad to have to throw that overly complex sophisticated logic out, but it'll probably be for the better for everyone if it did go away.
My 1% upvote is about to be over 10 cents lol.
Such a whale...
View or trade
BEER.Hey @aussieninja, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @phoenixwren for you. Enjoy it!Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your
BEER.I'm going to take full credit for this. My bugging khal got it done on leo, and leo has obviously proven the success of the flat curation model.
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Good job Neal! :)
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You get the credit.
Well done sir.
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I will allow it.
Thank you @nealmccspadden
That was a great idea.
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With much thanks and gratitude!
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Thank you.
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You da man.
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Thank you Neal... well done, sir!
Something nicely symmetrical about LeoFinance becoming a sort of "incubator" for Hive to follow...
=^..^=
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Well done. I think this is one of the reasons why LEO is so much more peaceful than Hive.
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Leo is managed by a single developers while hive has larger parties that influence the network consensus
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Oh happy day.
I loved the 50/50 change, because when you give more to the consumer, you attract more consumers. If more consumers are paying, you make more money. It's a simple concept really. Give everyone a free beer at the baseball game, and you'll fill way more seats that still cost the same.
But then they threw that curve in there and I was all like, "WTF?"
Then they threw that five minute window in there and I was all like, "WTFF?"
It's good that experiment will be over. Hopefully at some point people will realize attracting more consumers, particularly the ones who will spend at least some money on our products here, is the way to go, and helps contribute to a healthy token. We need more money coming in than what can potentially leave. Building a stadium and paying the players but forgetting to put butts in the seats never goes over too well.
I would like to see the voting time window removed entirely like leofinance did.
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That's basically what's going to happen. If you vote anywhere between the 0-120 minute mark you'll get the full 50% kickback. I imagine from there the logical step is to simply remove the timer entirely.
This should have been implemented at the beginning. Not voting does not imply consent and the ability to disagree with and even absolutely object to a proposal or witness, ought to be a given, there is no mechanism in place for me to say No, I don't want the DAO paying for unrelated law suite....
Great post, lots to think about
Best wishes to you :-)
I am particularly stoked about the effect this will have on commenting, and hence engagement. Not only is upvoting comments going to become far more feasible, but that fact that upvoting comments IS more feasible will lead to more engagement, which in turn leads to a more attractive and vibrant community... which ends up a plus for attracting new participants, which ends up being good for the token price, one would hope.
LeoFinance has really set a trailblazing "working example" for "Greater Hive" to follow!
=^..^=
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It's nice that you are so happy.
I have also always hated the convergent curve, because my finally 1 cent 100% upvote (that I was so proud of), suddenly went back to a zero upvote value. It was pissing in the wind to upvote the small accounts that would turn around and support me. I complained every which way I could, pointing out that it was now IMPOSSIBLE for me to support newbies, and for newbies to make anything at all. No one seemed to know the formula that was being used, and NO ONE SEEMED TO CARE. I think I peeved some curators off too by complaining, so the little bit I had been making evaporated.
Good riddance to (x^2)/(x+1)
I love seeing this talked about.
Yes, I don't even hardly vote on Hive because I have no clue if it does anyone any good or not. I've just stuck to Leo, Sports, STEM, CTP, and the occasional outlier like POB or CINE. I WANT to vote on Hive. I want to GET votes on Hive. I just don't have a clue how. lol If you say this is good news, then I'm all for it. :-)
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Take this 5% upvote for example.
Paying 16 cents right now on Hive.
That will double to 32 cents.
Good shit.
Yes, I think I understand what it's going to. I just have never understood where it's been. lol
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16 cents at 5%, that's pretty darned good! :-)
Making everything an even playing field makes for removal of cutting corners as there's not longer any benefit from doing so. HIGHLY looking forward to this hard fork it seems like a lot is going to be "fix" for the better on this one.
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Leo set precedent and it works great. It creates more interaction and manual curation.
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Thats actually really good. As someone who is highly active yet knows bugger all or can make sense of how the curve works and when to curate I feel as if I am constantly at a loss.
I tend to upvote posts which are good well outside peak returns. I believe this has also impacted the posts I am voting on.
Well done on the changes.
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Fuck yah when you have a good blog all you gotta do is wait for the good comments ;) whale
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Its awesome to see someone who still disagrees with the current system, and Im hoping that there will be no downvote wars between this debate in the near future. I also think that this post is healthy and its good to observe over the past year if the system was a WIN/WIN for largest stakeholders and content creators, and not just content creators, also to the developers who are contributing in the System.
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Sorry, but what's with this convergent by the way? Why it's a good news? Not that knowledgeable about this thing even though I'm staying here for a bit longer.
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Anyone who makes a low payout on Hive gets 50% of their money taken away from them.
Eliminating the curve gives the poorer people on Hive double the money and allows users to upvote comments without a penalty.
I'm with you man, I really like upvoting comments!
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I like the 50/50 post reward, both as a content curator and content creator as it supports both types of user of Hive and Leo. I don't post Leo content but am very happy to curate, especially with this incentive. I believe it is working quite well. The changes to the curve can't come soon enough. At present, it ain't working.
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Leo is set it as a standard so far i think with its dynamism.
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I think this is one of the reasons why LEO is so much more peaceful than Hive.
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I honestly gave up on curation for HIVE since I don't have much HP and my vote doesn't exactly push people over the tip usually. So I don't mind voting comments and I tend to return peoples value through HE tokens like LEO and SPORTS. So I think removing the convergent curve will be a good thing. I don't like that those who vote comments get reduced rewards.
As for the reverse conversion, I think its fine since I don't change HBD into HIVE much lately. I think having liquid HIVE is more useful.
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Not bad, but I still like the way LEO does it better. With LEO, I can upvote a post I read days later without being punished on curation rewards.
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Any news on timing? I heard they were going to do this weeks ago and cashed in my dollars when they were $1.20 USD each. It turned out to be scandalously premature.
That's definitely a plus for engagements, especially those who do not post often, but interact more.
This is definitely going to make things very interesting in the future. I can't wait to see how it all pans out. Being able to get some better curation rewards for manually curating is certainly a plus!
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LEO Finance gets credit for this one for sure (the convergent curve stuff kicked to the curb) and Neal.
It was so confusing. When to vote, if to vote. The biggest draw for me to LEO Finance was the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Sir). Curation, onboarding, now yield farming and pretty much all the projects rolled and rolling out by LEO Finance.
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It's good to have Tribes like Leo and others to take suggestions from them in general for development. It's very cool
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Hive has been killing it. I agree with all the updates.
Yes, agreed @edicted, good changes. Question? Why on earth did "they" take so long to reach this conclusion? And implement these changes? Oh, wait a minute ... They have not yet been implemented ...
Blocktrades (Dan) and others have the "power" to have decided this long ago. And acted up on it, for the benefit and betterment of all laboring away, for their own visions of what their efforts might produce. Given your time here on this blockchain (mine is fast approaching 3 years ...), you must be aware of how many left in frustration and worse, from the time your referenced EIP changes were made ...
Anyway, good post about the fact we are finally (wen UF25?) reaching the point where we see "some light at the end of the tunnel." It cannot come soon enough ...
Have a great day!
P.S. How do we accurately "measure" (quantitatively, so as to be unmistakably clear ...) the impact that the LeoFinance community has had on all of this "progressive thinking?" Immediate related follow-up question - why isn't LeoFinance one of the mission-critical Top 20 Witnesses? See "between the lines," in what I have written above ...
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Many people asked Blocktrades about implementing flat curation. But for some reason, there are still good amount of people who like the convergent curve. I'm glad that we are moving to flat curation curve making it fair for everyone.
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Yes, for some reason ... They benefit from it, especially those who can do so programmatically ... "Doesn't work for you?" Or many others? 🤷♂️ They don't care ...
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I love the idea that upvotes on comments will be worth more.
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Well, everything is changing at such a fast pace that you don't even have time to think hahaha.
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I like it. With free downvotes, I thought first too of downvote selling. But played out well.
The changes in the reward curve are good too.
Because I like to upvote comments ( but I do anyway so fuck ROI).
What I would like to see to reduce the artificial HBD buying proposals. Because some good proposals don't become any funds at the moment ( like the marketing one).
Real demand is better than artificial ones.
Because of the 1% rule, I would say burn is not the perfect solution for the DAO fund. First, I had the same opinion " burn it". But it is like burn IMO, it locked up forever and doesn't hit the free market.
A huge advantage about steem. They have 80 Mill more.
In this megabullrun I would love to see cheaper wallet creation with hive ( 0,1 Hive). Because they need also RCs. So why so expensive. Would also increase demand for hive and burn hive on a larger scale. If hive (a matter of time) hits 5$ it becomes too expensive and is not an alternative to RCs. Simple RCs are the only option then.
Dapps need a way to onboard everyone they want.
It should be enough to prevent spam and namesquatting.
@edicted
I agree that this move to linear curation is great news. I hope it has the same positive effect on the Hive Community, that it had on the Leofinance Community.
I didn’t realize comments were rewarded so poorly, so I think that’s a great change also.
I think that all these good things occurring at once are very good for Hive.
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If we go back to linear curation rewards for Hive, that's awesome! It's the only thing I missed from the changes we are about to have regarding curation in HF25, but I really appreciate it. I say it as one who also upvotes comments and as someone who strongly opposed the changes in the EIP of HF22, if that's when they were introduced.
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Great news and we can clearly see the impact of leofinance as they saw the virtuous circle that followed.
More interactions because of upvoted comments and therefore more users / activity => increase in token price.
Finally people look around to what's working and copy it, that feels great !
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Yes I love it when a plan just keep evolving and improving. Great news in an already improving phase of the cycle. Hive can return to its ATH now.
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I'm excited to read the good news here. I can't wait.
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Oh well, I am going to wait for what will happen. Let's go for the Leo for now! LOL
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Read how this all have started with Toruk
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sounds good!
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I really hate downvotes! Downvoting war! especially this F--K--G "adamada" always downvote my post without sufficient basis! I've talked to acidyo but I don't seem to have heard about his staff who is the new president of hiveph. Very irresponsible president! He doesn't deserve that! If I were someone else, I wouldn’t support such people!
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We try things. We learn. We try something else. We learn.
Regardless of what people may have to say about the EIP, it allowed us to test a bunch of new concepts. I wrote my thoughts at the time in my post My New Steem Resolutions: What will you do in HF21? and in a good conversation with @trafalgar (who had most of the credit for the content of the EIP) I said that:
Maybe I was right at the time. But one has to try things out to learn. Hopefully, we can nurture and grow more success stories like LeoFinance that can try and fail other things which in turn the whole ecosystem can observe and learn from.
That's how decentralized organizations win.
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Isn't this exactly why the second layer has been successful? It is so much easier to iterate on the second layer, like an experiment, and Leo has been at the front of the pack innovating. I am super stocked with this incredible change.
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Lots of these will increase the experience of new users especially. But I am not sure what will happen again to the previous trend of bots farming small rewards. Yes, it will be always a big problem everywhere, no matter the technology. Maybe it's something we don't need to solve now if all that happens is for HIVE price to constantly increase over time since whoever run the bots will think about re-investing.
The one I like most is the reverse conversion. I hate having this HBD going high! Which never gave any benefit for both posts or HIVE value in the long term.
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I like when HBD trades over $4 but there should be a mechanism to trade $1 of HBD both directions. The swap feature is handy except it takes 3 days.
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yeah... it should balance itself via posts payouts to avoid devaluing HIVE itself.
This is a good post that touches on some important updates. Please write another article explaining these concepts further if you can, this was a good introduction to the changes but some more analysis would be appreciated. I don't quite understand all of the mechanisms but am curating after 5 minutes. I also vote on comments and try to support Menno users, although I have been criticised for supporting 'low-quality" content occasionally. I make my own evaluation Of human meaningful efforts. I think for the most part we are all doing their best but can gently encourage each other, better than being harsh.
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I totally missed that HF ! When is it supposed to happen ?
Making a flat linear curve will be a huge feature and not discouraging to vote posts With low rewards !!
I still don't understand what's happening with the HBD 😅
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