Also I love watching the art process which, in my opinion, is art too. The journey to the finished product.
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Also I love watching the art process which, in my opinion, is art too. The journey to the finished product.
From a rather post-modern perspective, the process of making art is, like you said, also art. Video tape yourself can slap the label of performance art on it and call it a day! No, just kidding. But it is like that, seeing the artist go into the space of creativity and the subsequent "performance" or creation is awesome.
On a different note, check my review of your work! It is not very long or detailed, and I am sure you were tagged in it.
Thanks for the insightful discussion on the process of creating art!
Video of tape yourself might also be art, it all depends. If there's also a message in it, a reason, something the artist wants to say, with the method of performance, it definitely is art. One might say it's the thought that counts. :) But do people like it or not, that's always debatable.
Take for instance Butoh dance. Is it performance or dancing? Is it art? I think it is, all of those. And when you know the history behind butoh dance, where it's origin is, why it was created, it really gives a deeper meaning, especially to those performances where traditional butoh dance is used.
But do we as spectators need to know the history or the creation process behind a certain style or an art piece to understand it? In my opinion, no. I think seeing things not knowing anything about them is totally fine and acceptable. And sometimes it's a cool experience to see things not knowing anything, after seeing it the first time finding out stuff and then experiencing the art again, perhaps in a whole new way. But then again, coming back to that "tape yourself" thought, if the art doesn't give anything to the spectator, no thoughts, no questions, no peace of mind or an uncomfortable feeling, nothing, was the art worth making for?
Thank you so much for the review! You chose the words in your review so well that there's nothing left to add. Well summarized!
And thank you too, I really enjoyed our discussion. Art talk is always welcome.
That is so true. I video-taped myself making some abstract paintings a while ago, just for documentation's sake. The video ended up becoming a type of performance art in itself, unplanned.
Wow, I have never even heard of it, but viewing it, I am mesmerized. As someone unfamiliar with the history and cultural situatedness thereof, I lean towards it being art. The video I watched just now of it reminds me of the lead singer frontman of the band Tool, Maynard James Keenan. In his older live performances, he danced in a very similar style. I wonder if he might have been inspired by Butoh dance.
This is a very thoughtful question. Like you said, leaning toward a "maybe no", and with the addition of making one feel uncomfortable, etc., it all depends right. In the end, art cannot really be bound by rules. But I am reminded of a quote by a philosopher, William Marx in The Hatred of Literature, writing about literature that does not shock one:
I think that quote can be relevant to all art as well. And I think Butoh dance also fits in this. It immediately makes one uncomfortable if you are not familiar with it. I am not sure if this is a legit and authentic version of it, but it is one of the first when I google it:
Again, irrespective of cultural and historical significance, this dance reminds me of performance art, I struggle to fit it into any predefined notions of art, it makes me feel uncomfortable, it challenges me, it makes me think differently, etc.
Sorry for the already too long comment!
I am so glad that the review got chosen and that you find it well!
Oh gosh, an honest mistake by me. I added the word of in my mind and also understood it so. Although I do love to misread words and purposely talk about that misread subject, this was an honest mistake.
My mind had this image of someone using actual tape (duck tape or something) and recording a video of that. 😀 But now that I read again our conversation, I don't think it matters that much if we talk only of a videotape or a videotape of taping oneself.
Anyway...
I found a Maynard James Keenan compilation and yeah, sure looks awfully like Butoh dance. Perhaps some krumping there too. I'm calling that authentic movement. Just free association. And I think most of us, if given no idea or ideal way on how to dance, or if our minds would be erased of the "rules" on how to dance, and also given the gift of not caring at all what other people think, when hearing that music, we would dance like he does.
That video you found (I think it's mesmerizing too) looks like very traditional Butoh dance, though I'm not an expert but sure looks like what can be defined as a reaction to post-war shock and discarding the traditional classical moves that are often described as beautiful and easily absorbed. The William Marx quote is spot on. About Butoh and art generally. We need art challenging us. Art at it's best is something that challenges us in some way. May it be opinions of the world or self reflection but challenge it must. Although some might disagree but fortunately we: you, I and William Marx know better.
Also we of course need art to show feelings like anger or sadness. Or to tell horrible stories. In my opinion, if something indescribably horrible has happened, why would an artist try to please the audience by sugarcoating it to a pleasurable art that doesn't make the people watching the art uncomfortable? Is it the same story or does it tell another story about pleasing people over your own needs. Stories that no-one perhaps wants to see or hear need to be told too because the world is full of them.
I love talking about art, dancing and philosophical topics so your comment wasn't too long at all. I love reading long comments, in this case especially! And besides, my comments are long too.
Here's one modern Butoh performance that combines so many things I love. Dancing, ingeniously video, glitches, weirdness and awesome city scenery with really cool colors. Not forgetting philosophy. The mood is so cool and the whole video is so captivating.
What a lovely misreading! I love this. Our language is awesome!
Great! And yes, I fully agree. There is something organic to his movements that everyone can mimic in that situation. I would guess that Butoh dancing has some more rules and structure for those familiar with it?
True, not everyone would agree. And sometimes I think people would react with real shock and not the more philosophical or artistic shock we are referring to, if I make any sense? Or let us label it horrified-shock. I think that reaction is not productive and can be psychologically scarring, but that just shows that some people are in fact, following William Marx, already "eternal minors", and they cannot be shocked in the artistic manner we are referring to. (Again, I hope I am making sense.)
Indeed! I am reminded of Goya's The Disasters of War plates. The absolute horror and shock they filled me when I saw them at age 16, but when I was older I realized that they are important: they remind of not of the disasters or war, but the horrors of war that our modern people shy too easily away from. It is not easy to look at, but that is the purpose! We should not be so desensitized from them as I am sure he meant to produce them as a warning for all the future viewers.
Thank you so much! I am going to watch it now and then I will respond in our next meeting in the ensuing comments.
Yes I think so too. Other than the things that spectators see right away, white paint and daily movements like walking. I haven't studied it, I just know that there is a dance style called Butoh and some trivia about it.
Yeah, I think your making sense, if I understood you correctly. If someone is offended or so uncomfortable when seeing art they don't like, they perhaps take it too personally or just can not deal with the negative emotions the art makes them feel. They prefer feeling glad, not sad because they can't handle it. Perhaps also generally too in their life.
As for the artist the way to deal with horrible things may be to create art. The assumption then is that the spectator either sees inside the artists head or if it's meant as a statement about the world, will wake up and start thinking and accept the things they feel about the art, not think that the art in any way is a personal attack.
Gruesome and awesome. So terrible but beautiful work.
When terrible things in life don't happen to you, one tends to forget that terrible things do happen all the time. Just to someone else. It's easy to just close your eyes and think about happy things if it's not directly happening to you at that time. And of course if you all the time think about how cruel life is, it would drive you crazy. So it's not just forgetting about the horrors of war or everything that is bad, it's actively forgetting. Choosing to forget. So that's where we also need artists. They (we) are the product of our time. Artists represent the state of the world and remind us all that the world isn't just a happy and sunny teletubbyland. There are also monsters here. And the archeologists digging our remains 500 or 5000 years from now, need to see our war plates.
Exactly yes. Rather than see it as an opportunity to grow and "become better" they prefer to be offended or to try and silence the artist.
Yes! Art is after all a form of communication. If we want to be all romantic about it, we can even go as far as claiming that the artist does not know how to communicate in words, instead, the artist communicates with his or her art. I think this can be all the more relevant with dance and performance art and Butoh. The video you shared in the previous post, the poem the artist voiced in some sense attests to this. Dancing to him is a way of expression, but it might also be seen as a response to the world or anything. I think we are about to write a theory of communicative art if we go deeper into this! 😅
Exactly. Well put! Art in this sense becomes less of communication in the strict sense (yes they can communicate over time like Goya might "communicate" with us), but it is rather "documentation" then. It serves as a warning that surpasses the mere "word". Words of warning from previous generations might warn us, but we do not always listen. Violent "gore" videos of war and disaster might scare us and we might look away or we might even become desensitized, but art is different. In art, we might produce "feelings" and "emotions" that stir the viewer in a certain way to "listen" and "look" differently than merely warning someone or shocking them. There are so many great examples of this, and most of these might be political art of our current times. Again, I hope I am making sense.