Effort is an important metric

in OCD6 days ago (edited)

I wrote a post a week ago that received quite a bit of comments and thoughts, which I appreciate. It was quite a long post and yet there was still a lot missing. This one is not going to be about the effort mentioned in there but it might touch a little on the same versions.

As I'm writing this I'm still not sure if the comparison is great but I'm going to go ahead and try either way.

The mining of Hive is quite unique. If one were to compare it to say something like Bitcoin, it's vastly better but is so different that it's not easy to compare and you can't really compare all aspects. For those of you who don't know, let me try and paint a picture of how Bitcoin mining works. It's been a while I've studied Bitcoin, I even wrote about it for a school project what must've been a decade ago so a lot of stuff I'm not entirely sure about or won't work exactly as I imagine it these days, but might be enough for the sake of this post. So don't quote me on stuff. :p

As far as I know, each block generates a difficult "puzzle", the difficulty of this is determined by how much hashpower is active in the network and it adjusts every 2 weeks or something. Basically, imagine the bitcoin network produces a sudoku and now all miners in the world, which are programmed to mostly solve sudoku's go ham at it trying to be the first to do so. When the puzzle is solved, that miner receives the block reward and opens up the next block to be mined. When a block is solved, it also verifies all transactions that occurred in that block. At some point it became so difficult to mine Bitcoin that people with a couple miners weren't finding a block in a long time, so they came up with the idea where they would team up with other miners as well and count each others "workload" so that if one of them found a block they would share the rewards with everyone participating; that's now mining pools.

On Hive, mining works differently. We have 10% of inflation going to witnesses a.k.a. block producers, instead of them fighting against each other of who's the first to solve a puzzle, everyone instead gets a chance in a round robin kind of way to solve the next block. This more anticipated method allows us to have much faster block times, which could even be lowered in the future if we had a need for it. How often the block producers get to solve blocks is determined by the order, with most going to the top 20 and then it tailing down.

With another 15% going to HP inflation (who holds hivepower gets inflation rewards each block) and 10% going to the DAO (DHF) it leaves us with 65% going to Proof of Brain a.k.a. curation split evenly between curators and authors.

You may now see why comparing these two systems is difficult as they're quite different from each other.

Alright, back to the main point of the post and what got me to write about it in the first place. There was a recent user that returned to Hive and well let's say made quite a lot of noise about it. You see this user had in the past been caught for reposting content and often times also post quite "lazy" content if you will. This happens every now and then but it's worse when it happens to very well established users who have a lot of connections and in turn have done quite well on the platform over the years. The thing is that this wouldn't have to be this difficult, for some reason many of these users that are caught being either lazy or trying to cheat their way into more rewards for close to no effort, always play the blame game.

I don't wanna drive more traffic that user's way so let's compare it to some other users I think and hope won't ever stoop down to that level. Let's imagine @tarazkp for instance, someone I support with my voting power often and have done so ever since he was a minnow entering a public chat asking some basic steem hive questions. I usually try to treat everyone the same way I did him way back, I try to be helpful, give some advice and then curate them for a while. Keeping things manual means I may hop from one user or group of users to others over time but there's plenty of autovotes to cover my lack of consistent support. Now, of course, taraz was and turned out to be quite unique. He didn't just learn and understand things fast and properly like many others, but he stuck to it and understood the longterm goals and advantages/opportunities of this ecosystem. Okay, enough "circlejerking" for now, let's get down to a bad scenario.

Imagine taraz suddenly started reposting his content from a couple years back. Either copy-paste or changing a few things here and there like images and a few words/sentences to make it more "up to date" from an old post.

Hive only allows votes to be gathered for 7 days, which means that after 7 days new readers checking out that post aren't able to upvote it, but they can however give it a tip or just hit up a new post or comment and let them know why they decided to upvote that comment a bit higher. This example, say I would find a post of his I somehow had missed and it would be so amazing I felt the need to upvote him for it. I highly doubt anyone would mind if I gave him a 100% upvote on one of his comments and mentioned why. Now before I move on don't try and use this tactic to normalize doing this, this is like a random case scenario that's not to occur often, just pointing out that if there really needs to be a way for you to upvote him for something you missed out on, if you don't instead want to give it a tip, you can find a way to do it, just don't go through lengths to abuse it.
The problem with reposting is that, since there's a lot of autovotes in usage on the platform, you may get the same support from the same people/stake twice for the same content. Of course it could even be manual votes being "victim" to this, or lazy/overlooked votes, not saying it's all autovotes to blame, most of the time it's the fault of the author in the reposting case.

Now imagine someone would notice this and maybe they'd give taraz the benefit of the doubt and comment something like "hmm, are you sure you haven't posted this before? Could swear I've read it in the past". Taraz could now either lie or ignore the comment or say "yeah so what about it?".

We as a community have decided that reposting isn't okay due to the way rewards work on Hive. It's quite a unique platform with unique reward distribution that you've yet to find anywhere else so naturally there's going to be different rules in some cases, this being one. Reposting itself is fine, do it as much as you want, just don't accept rewards on it or if you don't like "declining" rewards (which nulls curation rewards of your supporters as well), then you can just forward them using beneficiaries to something beneficial to the ecosystem like @hive.fund.

For some reason, many authors choose the 3rd option. They blame the platform, they blame the system, they blame anyone else but themselves and their actions. "Hive is decentralized and proposes freedom", sure and it does, but that doesn't mean the freedom to do whatever you like and others just being okay and having to tolerate it. This seems like the biggest issue with some of these users, their excuses for either having gotten caught or trying to somehow swing others into believing they're the victim in these situations are often laughable at best, sad and desperate at worst.

As a new user this is understandable if they don't know about this community-set rule and most of the time they are forgiven, even if I personally don't agree with some of the hoops they some times have to jump through by certain projects on the chain. Old users should know but even they, depending on how much value they've objectively brought to the ecosystem and how valuable their presence from others is, are often given a second chance, even the case of the returning user recently I believe wasn't being downvoted for a long time after the incidents came to light.

The thing that to me personally stands out is the outright ignoring of their wrongdoing, the attempts of changing the rules, being loud and trying to actively damage the ecosystem or the reputation of those intervening in protecting stake from being rewarded to such users and content is hard to ignore.

If these users would go for option A, lying about it, they'd quickly be met with proof since everything is timestamped and immutable on this blockchain, even the content before you edited it out is still in its original block it was posted into. If they chose to ignore the comment asking if this is an accidental repost, they could eventually get away with it if they stopped reposting since that user maybe won't share his findings forward and give taraz a second chance personally but keep an eye on this future content.

The option I didn't mention above which for some weird reason doesn't happen often, is just admitting to it. Yes, this could mean some damage to your reputation but this was definitely something done on purpose from a user of this age, activity and reputation on the platform, so you're just going to have to take it. So while this could mean less consistent support, maybe more downvotes over time depending on how much the downvoters want to bother or want to adjust on a case by case basis. Imagine for instance the perpetrator has reposted 10x and received 500 HP in rewards for "no effort", doesn't 10x downvotes on future posts make it even? Is even even fair with someone who tried to cheat their way to effortless rewards? Admitting at least gives you a chance to make up for it either through the hoops I mentioned earlier or by enough people still valuing your contributions and hoping you won't try the same thing again.

Instead we see some go full ballistic, trying to spread what happened to them (the downvotes as the main title of their hate for the platform) and basically giving up on their own account and their connections and everyone else here in the same go, a.k.a. burning all bridges. There's a lot more things I could say about some of these cases but don't wanna make it sound like I'm singling anyone out since a certain recent case made me think to post about this.

Anyway, don't wanna drag this post on for too long, I need to get better on making the prologue shorter in the future. If you see posting activity that goes against effort, you're safe to assume that there's something fishy going on there. Keep in mind of course quality, effort and even each account is subjective, but asking doesn't hurt to find out more and people should value those asking around to try and protect the network better than turn a blind eye on abuse that may be occurring. Being able to combat this is one of Hive's strengths, but at the same time it's also important to figure out and combat misuse of the tool that lets us combat this; downvotes.

Let's finish it with some Bitcoin comparison, somehow?

Hey Bitcoin, this time last year I used so much electricity to mine you and you didn't reward me a single block in forever, do you know how much time, sweat and tears I put into the money to buy those miners and pay for electricity? Here's the same hash guesses from then, maybe this time you'll reward me some more. No? Oh, okay, bitcoin sucks everyone! It just rewards the same miners over and over and the pools control everything!

Let me switch to Ethereum's staking instead since Bitcoin sucks! Oh, wtf is slashing? Okay nevermind then.

Guess I'll stick to steem and blurp where as long as I don't post illegal content and have stake or coins to buy votes with I'll be fine! Who is this Haejin guy and why is he getting so much rewards?


I have come to terms that anything involving humans is going to be imperfect. Also that blame is just a covert way of draining your own personal power when it is much better to focus energy on the solution.

That being the case, seeing culture as an incredibly powerful force (for the good or otherwise) in business over the years has been a valuable eye-opener. Many baffling issues in business can be attributed to the culture and partial effort dedicated to the nurturing of that culture has proven to be well worth the effort. Nice to see that culture evolving here to say the very least.

It is these conversations in life and on the blockchain that lead to distributed ownership of not only the rewards, but the problems as well. We are all invited to invest what we like, reap what we sow, and talk directly to the big wigs in the ivory tower like you ;) This chain is much stronger than its weakest link and a strong link can strengthen a great number of weaker ones.

I really enjoy the leadership from some of the bigger stakeholders and more effort put into strengthening the weaker links before clipping them from the network. Haejin? I think someone must have blurped!


This chain is much stronger than its weakest link and a strong link can strengthen a great number of weaker ones.

If we want a strong community, it has to be led by example.

I haven't noticed this reposting over the years (that indeed would be "double dipping"), but then again, I haven't actually been looking for it either. What I've seen are people copying the work of others, changing a few things and then passing it off as their own.

Including my content which I saw by accident where they had slightly re-written one of my posts, and even swapped a couple of paragraphs in order to hide it. I'd been looking for posts to upvote, and was reading that one by chance. The realization dawned on me that the writing seemed familiar; Where have I seen this before? Turns out it was one of my own.

Your mention of beneficiaries brings up a question from me. I started doing this a couple of years ago as a way of giving back to Hive. I support vetfunding, hbdstabilizer, hive.fund and a few others with small percentages of my posts.

What's confusing me is that when my posts pay out, I'm getting a payment back from those same beneficiaries that I donated a percentage of my post rewards to. Why am I getting anything back from them at all? Any ideas? i thought they kept that 5% or 10% that I put them down for? Or am I misunderstanding how the beneficiaries system works? If I run a food truck and share 5% of the profits with you, you get to keep that. So I don't understand why I'm getting something back. Thanks for any response.

Hmm, could it be that it's the curation rewards of your own vote? If you place a % as beneficiary that % only allocates the post rewards towards that account, not the curation rewards, your own included. That's the only thing I can think of that you could mean.

My author payouts come to me separately, and I get $HIVE and/or HBD payouts back from each of the beneficiaries as well. I wish hiveblocks wasn't down for maint, as I could show it directly, but here's from Hive itself, from my last payout fot the post; Believe In Yourself:

Past Payouts $1.56

  • Author $0.70
  • Curators & beneficiaries $0.86

hbdstabilizer: $0.08
hiveonboard: $0.08

I'm sure I must be missing something, but the intent on my part is genuine.

For some reason, many authors choose the 3rd option. They blame the platform, they blame the system, they blame anyone else but themselves and their actions.

Reposting for "visibility" like they couldn't just insert that into their other current post as a snippet? nah, they want to get paid for publishing the same content or with the a little changes while still wanting to have the rep of a hard working content creator of some sort. I wonder what goes into people's heads thinking their post really is worth value it's been giving to the platform that it warrants a repost without declining rewards.

Only OGs remember haejin and notberniesanders. I just wish I understood how they actually were getting so many rewards. It doesn't make sense to this day. If this platform is as niche as they say, and I mean, compared to Instagram it's fringe, why is this guy here exploiting so blatantly? It's an indifference curve. There are some lengths people are willing to go to for certain things. I went to a concert last night, and there was a line almost around the place for drinks. The line upstairs for food and other drinks didn't exist. It was like, people didn't bother going up the stairs, but missed a chance to get their drink and food faster than waiting in a massive line. I'm willing to make a greater effort, add my photography, cite sources and incorporate lessons and memoirs, and share my experience to receive recognition. That is leagues better than the systems of Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We always say that- but the real reason I like this place and try not to abuse it, is the ability to use public interest to fund public works. I really wish I was here when those people built a park with $STEEM in New York. Now they're building irrigation in Ghana with $HIVE. Really tired of being in crypto and watch grifters grift. Now I'm trying to see if I can communicate what crypto can accomplish with a weird memecoin instead. What a time to create content!

I got so frigging nervous at this point:

There was a recent user that returned to Hive and well let's say made quite a lot of noise about it.

BUT thanks for solving a mystery for me on something I saw recently which more or less fits the user's behavior you so eloquently described. Now it makes sense.

Honestly what is the best tactic for 'average' users and creators to use to spot this kind of behavior?

Seems like it is something curators would notice much more often, given that they can remember folk's old (previously posted) content.

Can we maybe look into how frontend interfaces could utilize LLM(s) to scan previously authored content (of a specific user) to catch any duplication?

Not really looking for answers to those questions but I would love to see solutions (or tools) to help people make decisions on what they are voting on.

You've said so much and it is sad to see people put little or no effort to their work. It is cheating and should not be allowed. Sure Hive is decentralised but that doesn't mean anyone whatsoever can post things because they can. There are rules to living life even if it not on paper, it is a common knowledge which should be respected.

I have read Taraz works and I love how he writes because there is always something to write each day. This is why I don't understand why some people copy others work or repost something they've written before. The world is filled with news and life is just life with everything in it and we can write tons of things from there.

Cheating should not be allowed. It is sickening.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can repost content thinking they won't be discovered on Hive.

The only explanation is that their sole objective is the short term and to sell the HIVE earned through reposting in a short time.

For some reason, many authors choose the 3rd option. They blame the platform, they blame the system, they blame anyone else but themselves and their actions.

Generally, those who republish content and want to earn quickly without effort are those who only look at their own profit and that's why they always choose the third option but in my opinion that option was already planned in their mind...

There's always Blurt. I used to snoop on there, just to see what the exiles were talking about. It's usually HIVE heh.., recently it's got boring and now I don't bother.

I mean, they're doing Hive a favor if it's their staple buzz on the platform.

And there's not much buzz here about blurt because there's nothing to look forward there but posts they share here on Hive and hate Hive content.

My experience with cryptocurrencies has not been bad, but rather terrible. The only platform that I have liked and hasn't gone so bad for me, it has captivated me so much that I even involved my wife, has been Hive.

This was a very informative post. I see that there are a lot more ways that people can game the system. I agree that it becomes a lot more problematic when a big user does it. The good thing is, as I read more posts from other people, it seems that the community is being more vigilant against this. They are policing and calling them out more and more. I have seen a lot more downvotes on some posts as well.

I don't understand why it's so important for people to repost. If you don't have anything new to share, don't share, man, that's all. Tomorrow you'll find something new and you'll share it. The curators may have missed your post and that happens all the time. I think we should accept it and move on.

Guess I'll stick to steem and blurp

Blurp? Is this a new platform I'm not aware of? 😁
On a serious note, what would Hive be without drama? Hive was born out of drama. I suppose drama is Hive's middle name 😏

I see that you did a good job on this post. Good content. I like to read something like this in the evening.

Hmmm, it's not a good thing to see people putting little or no effort into their posts and receiving big rewards for it. They need to do better, Hive is not a get-rich-quick scheme where anything works, there are rules and those rules should be followed.

People should write in their niche that way they are easily inspired.
Thanks for bringing this to our notice.

@tarazkp level of effort is inspiring but it is hard to reach that standard. My posts are not nearly as long as his but making two of them in a day is a challenge.

Very clear explanation. Thanks.


Speaking of effort, I sometimes go the extra mile, but not always. Sometimes I exceed expectations, like the example I wrote here 12 days ago, but I think I may have written something wrong because it wasn't what I expected. But it was still good, and I won't be disappointed or complain about it. Of course, I don't feel very well paid for the effort I put into sharing my experiences in the forest.

I have a library of information, where if someone talks about a rare local plant they don't know, I can look it up and educate people. So, I do my best and keep doing it.

Please take a look at the photos and let me know what you think. I'll be happy to hear that you saw them, and maybe next time you eat a burger, you'll know where the seeds on top of the bun come from.


Have a great afternoon.

So far I have no experience with cryptocurrencies because I have only stayed in Hive, I would like to have more knowledge about them.

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The psychological affects and results of downvoting are a thing of legend.
Wouldn't be surprised if books were written on the topic one day.
It's quite the thing.
I've seen people act like they're being forced to fight for their life after a 1 cent downvote that was probably going to get dusted anyway.

I love reading the insightful contents shared by both you and @tarazkp. They are always thought-provoking and prompt me to reassess my goals within the Hive community and the type of content I want to produce! 🤔

Ultimately, the baseline I have for myself in whatever I do is to take pride in the work I share, as @bozz recently expressed in his post, and relish the journey while forging connections with individuals from across the world! 😊

It's essential that we do not condone the negative behaviors exhibited by a minority here and ensure they do not tarnish the reputation of what the rest of us have collectively built on Hive. In the end, we acknowledge our own imperfections as humans and hold ourselves accountable for our actions! 💪

Glad that I am singled out as the abuser! :D

But yeah, what I think a lot of it comes down to is personal integrity. Yep., people are entitled and have far too many expectations, but some of these users know that what they are doing is dodgy but feel entitled enough to do it anyway. Where is their integrity?

This isn't about making the odd mistake or not referencing an image properly or whatever, it comes down to knowingly choosing to do something that the person knows is frowned upon.

If I was to repost and not add anything of significant value to it, I would feel terrible, because I know that it is not good behavior.

And the people who claim that "they aren't free" annoy me, because them being able to post the shit in the first place proves that they are free, and they freely chose to post shit. Or repost shit as the case may be. We shouldn't tolerate it in the same way that we shouldn't tolerate violent people in society.

I feel that one of the conditions of a community is to uphold the integrity of the community. That works on an individual level.