Today I talk about the reward pools. I play devil's advocate with @therealwolf on how we can keep a universal reward pool. Now I see merit in both sides, I do believe the current setup is flawed as therealwolf points out (and expressed myself to others as such.) I do believe we can keep the baby and throw out the bathwater. I explain in this video a future that involves both a universal reward pool + layer 1 SMTs + layer 2 SMTs (or a version of)
I'm making more content to better communicate with the community. Please feel free to express your opinion in the comments below and I may respond to you directly in my next video if you bring up valid points/arguments etc.
▶️ 3Speak
This is why I'd like to see a lot of inflation applied to the bank accounts so investors can just earn passive income with the click of a button. Add Defi to the bank accounts and have them double as collateral for HBD loans and then things could get really crazy.
Keep pushing this 👍
Wolf out, hextech in!
And anyone reading this and thinking the above comment is a good idea...
https://wallet.hive.blog/~witnesses
lol bro you're shilling my witness better than I am.
embarrassing.
:D
I think interest should be paid out to savings accounts. I don’t know what the numbers should be though.
Unfortunately, witnesses don’t like setting interest rates for HBD. Ever. It’s been a struggle to get even a few people to use that parameter, so I’m not sure how successful that would/could be. It would require a shift in the culture and/or code.
Personally I don't think that function should be used, as paying out interest on debt seems weird. I think the Hive collateral being used to generate the HBD should instead be paid interest. So only the Hive in the bank accounts would accrue interest and HBD game-theory would be separate.
Yeah, that’s an option too. I think it’s worth exploring.
The savings account seems like such low-hanging fruit for providing improvements. Why don't people look at them more? Are we worried it complicates an already complicated platform?
The way I see it, it can't over-complicate the UX because it's already there. If anything having it there with no real use-case is making it more confusing than actually having a purpose.
Adding interest to them gives them a use case beyond the time lock.
I'd think it would bring back the hive on the exchanges.
Why risk it on an exchange when you get interest here?
And, holding unstaked benefits hp holders with extra inflation.
This is an idea I floated a long time ago, but the 'not my idea itis' never allowed it off the ground.
It has been time to do this, iyam.
Enjoyed listening to you Dan.
I want everyone in our community to understand - Network Effects
Twitter's in no danger - it has network effects.
Bitcoin is in no danger - it has network effects.
Open protocols have superior network effects.
Networks have "network effects." Adding a new participant increases the value of the network for all existing participants = Onboarding
Well said
Yep without users we are nothing more than some cool irrelevant tech.
I think the curve does need to go. It has led to vote slum lords pretty much, where the large accounts can vote on crap and have a lot of follow on votes. The not voting on post just because they have a lot of votes, and a lot of rewards from a social perspective is kind of bull. If a person likes something then vote give it a reward. not every book is a best seller, not every best seller is a good book. If you like the post reward it if you read it.
The self vote needs to be dumped. It serves no purpose at all other than to give a person a self reward. Investors are not really making a lot of post to self vote, so the claim of return on investment is pretty much a garbage claim. The self vote also has a very adverse effect for new users, a user with out the ability to give a vote above the dust level is losing out on the ability to grow their account. They need to vote on content that already has a payout.
Time of voting on content I agree 100% with you, I also vote on a post when I see it, does not matter if it is 5 or 6 days old or not, and the reward amount has very little bearing on whether I vote or not. The deciding factor is did I like the post.
The nice thing about Hive right now is there is room for all types of content, and all types of usage. There is room for the curator, the investor, the developer, and the I just want to look at things and read things people and sometimes share a little something. That is the real beauty of Hive, room for everyone right now, so changes to eliminate one group or another will have a very large effect on Hive Block Chain.
Yup..^this^.
The 'voting cliques' are biiiig negative (for the growth of hive).
How do you realistically get rid of the self vote when people can just have 2nd accounts holding the HP and upvote their other accounts.
You can't, any more than you can stop spam or plagiarism. You can make it more difficult however. I am sure there are a lot of second and third and forth accounts doing just that. Just as there are multiple accounts supporting their other accounts that support their plagiarism and spam accounts.
All we can do is make it more difficult. When it comes to GREED there is no control methods that are 100%. We can throw up our hands and ignore it or try to decrease it by making it more difficult.
Yes I know it could all be automated, but people do lose keys all the time, people do get hacked on a regular basis, if Governments around the world can not stop hackers to think that an individual is safe from them is foolhardy. To pretend that the keys to an account are safe is also just as fool hardy unless they are written down on paper and stored in a bomb and fire proof safe. Even then they are not safe if you lose the key or the combination to the safe.
I agree with self up vote, it's a deterrent to growing the platform. Why bother up voting others when you can just up vote yourself. Getting rid of the reward pool though won't encourage or onboard new users, whoever thought of that one really needs to reflect upon the consequences.
It seems some will not be happy until we are a merger of facebook, twitter, reddit, and youtube. people come to steem and hive style block chain places to get away from those and the trolls. We are almost a merger of the four, and it is the reward pools that make us stand out, They understand this that is why they all are talking about monetizing their system to one similar to Hive and Steem.
Exactly.
Yes. ,,, communication among the community is important, and the response to both of them is even more important ...
And far more important than anything else is to live up to a culture of peer-to-peer commentary, it will make the platform feel livelier...
Greetings from the hive community..
You made some great points I lean towards agreement to. We definitely need SMT, for sure!! Sooner than later. We need to loose the game theory of Dan Larimer, as indeed, it doesnt work in reality, as we’ve seen the last four yrs. I also think the layer 1 shall support growth of the eco system (it kinda does through the proposal system but that system is not working as it should. What I mean, the HIVE reward and power from it shall support abuse fighting teams, shall support community leaders, shall support onboarding more than it does now, shall support curator teams. Essentially it shall support all those group activities that makes HIVE a better service and social eco system. Rewards for content shall go to the second layer, SMTs without a link to HIVE rewards, ie one earns eg LEO but no HIVE anymore. Sure, we may continue (well we have to) with HIVE rewards since we dont have SMTs and as you pointed out, this shall be build into the core of HIVE.
For the proposal system to work, it becomes super important to drive the ‘involvement’ system. Ie those with power and those with great ideas and skills shall be able to connect much much better than they are connecting today. Although maybe not true, but it seems one needs to be part of an inner circle to get attention. We need to build a solution for this. Think in terms of startup accelerator programs where ideas are supported on all business aspects, next to funding and finding revenue models.
We need some (or multiple independent team) driving every business aspect of the entire HIVE ecosystem. We are decentralized but that doesnt means we shall all work in our own island. With the 10s of thousands active users we have in our midst, am 100% sure we can create teams and projects that will become mighty successful. Many don’t take on a project because we feel not to be part of the core of HIVE, we feel being on our own and most importantly, the HIVE chain is out of our hands, has no roadmap, has no clear plan of what we develop and when, hostile takeovers are still possible and so on and so fort.
We need SMT and then we need a hunting team to integrate HIVE into existing community platforms. Along with that we need to have developers available to integrate these community platforms. We need legal teams. We need to try and drive to spend time on something unique instead of creating all sort of same or similar services. We are too small to act fully decentralized. Decentralization shall be our destination, but not necessarily the road towards that shall be fully decentralized, like building out our ecosystem.
Have so much more to say, but leave that for another time. If you like, we can connect on eg Discord or Telegram. I have some ideas that I like to see happening; Its all about the entertainment industry in which I have a lot of connections that could be leveraged. Think of PoS at events. Think of loyalty point systems instead of volatile currencies. Think of collaboration with services like Viberate. And what about working together with Tomorrowland? ID&T? Awakenings? Time Warp? All big world brands in the electronic music entertainment industry. Many of them I can reach through a simple whatsapp.
If I'm understanding it correctly, instead of being rewarded in Hive people will be rewarded in the 2nd layer token of whatever service they happen to be using. Wouldn't that kind of make Hive like Ethereum? Or rather more like EOS because of no transaction fees?
Also how would people get new hive tokens if not through rewards? Would they have to get them on the open market? I figure the result of this would make them extremely expensive. IF people can't buy or acquire Hive, then they no longer have the ability to gain influence. Wouldn't this permanently stratify Hive? Doesn't that put the entire network, including 2nd layer developers at the mercy of a completely insulated group of Hive token bag holders?
I hope I'm understanding this right
Your first question: Correct, it makes HIVE kinda like Ethereum, maybe more EOS from the point that HIVE is the base chain which will connect many other 'chains' with their own commnities, apps and other use cases. The power of HIVE is the 1) enormous fast transaction speed 2) free transactions. Perforctly suited for realtime p2p payment solutions, including the so wanted PoS (point of sales, this can be any thing from web shop, to brick/mortar shop, to bar, to whatever). Any coin that will became a major coin in the future, requires a fast and powerful payment solution. What chain is able to do this? Just a handful. Now its the time to get onto that market.
In my view, we need to change HIVE t not reward content/votes anymore, but people can still earn HIVE, but not through content (posts, comments, voting). We have the proposal system through which any kinda of activity can be rewarded, this includes definitely projects and activities that has nothing to do with writing code. The proposal system needs to be upgraded though, it needs a better governance system, it may need a change to the voting algorithms, it definitely requires a must better way to connect proposal creators and large stakeholders. It shall be easier for good activities to get funded and it shall be less easy to get funds for shitty projects but projects that get the vote of a few whales. Seemingly inner circles shall be transformed into kinda like funding startup (eg accelerator programs) or other activities that supports the growth of the HIVE ecosystem. I also think HIVE shall be distributed to give some income to eg spam fighting service (regardless what 2nd layer token and community it concerns), curator groups (again regardless what 2nd layer token and community it concerns) and other necessary elements to keep 2nd to nlayer social service more or less clean from abuse. Another group I'm thinking of could be community leaders earning in HIVE. Essentially any activity that is good for the entire HIVE eco system or activities that is needed for the social element of the chain. This could all be funded from the proposal system, or we create a new way of getting to HIVE funds for particular tasks like I mentioned.
The worry you have and scenario you describe, are tackled with such approach. HIVE is not meant for a few whales. That said, the problem with a free market, the problem with a low value token is that tomorrow someone can pump 10M$ into HIVE and take over the chain, or become the new number one whale. TO conter this we may need to adopt a mechanism that can control the maximum amount of HIVE a individual can have. This requires ID identification of some sort. This will not fly with our current whales and witnesses, but that doesn't mean this is an option we shall take seriously.
It kinda' sounds like, if we went with this, every dapp will follow the path of D-live, and accept cash payments for in app currency. The only way creators will have access to hive, is if people tip them with in app currency which can then be converted/sold for Hive.
IF creators don't ever get Hive, then what meaningful way could they ever hope to influence the platform? How could they ever become influential enough to have any meaningful impact?
I get the arguments against a free market, though I fear the emerging consequences of an overly regulated one far more, that's why I'm so reluctant to see my only resource and 'power' on this platform stripped away and held by 2nd layer gatekeepers who are beholden to hive stake holders.
I can't shake the feeling that this is a power grab and an attempt to centralize power, even if that isn't the intent, and even if that isn't the desired end goal - it will be the end goal regardless.
I understand where you coming from. Fact is that at this point in time, nobody has real influence, except a couple individuals. We have 42 whale accounts? The number of individuals is less than that, for sure, How much less, I dont know, but considerable less. They have a stake that is around 50% of maybe 40%. So how decentralised is that? And what about our witnesses: 20 of them (well, 21 but 1 is reserve). 20 is not a lot and nobody can guarantee their independence. Nobody thought that a single entity could take the power of a chain, but it did happen. Now people think they are save because STINC and TRON are out, but are we save? I dont think so. I know, this is not a response to your comment, but I just try to voice that the current system irrespective of what HIVE token are distributed to, needs work, massive work to be able to function as one of the top chains.
For a long future ahead of us, I predict by far the majority of social media users is not at all interested in being able to control anything other then their own content. The fact that every stakeholder can vote for witnesses and for proposals is so complex for the average user, they will either not so this, or not become part of our community because of all these complexities. The reality will then be that many users give their votes to some proxy and we all saw what happened about half a year ago. The world is not ready for a fully decentralised ecosystem, I wonder if the world will ever be ready for that.
I am 95% looking for the point of view of a content creator and user of social media and I have one question: do You think the community and the content uploadednin here it have what it takes for the long run? Because I feel many artists/content creators here only can get successful if they are able to sustain themselves with their upvotes or get support direct from other People that see the prospect of getting good curation values backnfrom what they upload. Otherwise I feel that the majority of the people in here really doesn't care about any other content other than hive related stuff. And that makes difficult for us to get an audience. Well... but this might be just my experience and people might just hate EVERYRHING I do. Lol. That's why I wanted to ask You if You think we keep this type of content coming in the vast majority if You think it will be sustainable, attract investors or even users?
We need more users who are here to consume content. But its chicken and egg as how to attract them with the current quality of users? If Hive has the best content and quality interface experiences we will get users. Until then we will get people interested in the rewards pool.
I see what You mean. It is just very frustrating for me a lot of times. Because obviously I would love to be making way more rewards that I am. But I also don't comment too much cause I know there are people way less lucky than me. Even if my content is not the HIGHEST quality or for everyone a lot of times it is frustrating to see so much of it just going by totally unseen. And it is not my personality to just lick ass or try to get closer to the people with higher power just to get their votes and support. That is just not me. So I end up here in this limbo always having existential crisis from time to time. LOL On top of it makes me feel like crap because no matter how much I try to improve, change, adapt my content I end up never getting the rewards so in the end there's always that voice tell me "You are a piece of shit, just pack your bags and leave because You are not good at anything"! LOL
Have you tried trying to start an account on mainstream social media like instagram or FB and get traction and a large following? It is almost impossible. Hive was never going to be easy; as social media is never easy. But it is a hell of a lot fairer then most systems out there which never reward any of the small players
btw ; your not a piece of shit, so keep your bags under the bed for a bit longer.
More users will solve the problem. Right now, there is a majority of investors on HIVE.
would not removing hive distribution from rewards make it more centralized? big accounts does get bigger at the moment, but they do spread some because they need to "curate". if only witnesses and stake holders get hive, 30 people will forever be hive "owners".
Exactly. (It's 20, not 30.)
Lol MLM you say...
If you want massive user churn, remove the reward pool. they just want to remove what differentiates hive from other blockchains where you can earn by renting a node.
we have a system that can change the world and by
the
greed of some could be destroyed.
This idea raised is only intended for large investors and totally excludes content creators. they will be left without community
Okay, so big investors matter, but if there is no critical mass of users that Hive with whither away as there is little utility in it. The whales should be doing what they can to build the userbase rather than looking to maximise their income or supporting fellow whales who do not necessarily have the best content. They will be far better off if Hive has a million active users, many of who will invest in it. Those of us who don't desperately need a few dollars to pay the rent can play the long game.
People invest in things like medical companies that may take years to pay back, but could be lucrative. Those can help make society better too.
A big Hive stakeholder can do a lot of good even now.
Any changes ought to disincentivise auto-voting. If you have to vote within a few minutes to maximise income you will pick the easy targets and not bother if it's good or not.
Let's make Hive better for the many, not the few.
We can't rely on people's long term outlook. In theory, it makes sense, but in practice, it just does not work that way. We can scream until we're blue in the face for whales to think long term instead of for short term profits, but that's just life and why many are not wealthy in this world.
I say fix the parameters, we saw it with free downvotes. People argue whales should DV regardless if it's free, well sure in theory, but what happened in practice proves my point. We added free DV's and downvotes went up drastically and destroyed bid bots overnight basically.
If we remove the need to vote at 4 mins to maximize rewards you will see whales voting differently.
I am sure each person has their own thought on what is good for Hive or just for themselves. We've been in this thing for four years now and some have not taken a big profit yet. My Steem was worth almost 100k for a moment, but of course I could not power down quickly. I have spent some at various times on guitars and going to Steemfest. I think we have a good mix of investors, innovators and people who just enjoy being part of this experiment. That's why I don't think you can generalise about what people want.
People want money. Don't fool yourself.
Many people want money, that's true, but it is not the only motivation we have. Generalisations are usually wrong. Don't fool yourself.
SMT might have a better solution. Things inspiring me is because of this valuable vid you @theycallmedan
My thoughts exactly!
Thanks for being the voice of reason, explaining all this stuff.It's great that you are doing your posts as audios that I can listen to and learn from, rather than more time wasting videos that I can't be arsed looking at!
I totally agree with the competitive curation system - it is 'fucked up' - makes no sense, as to the curve - there is no such thing on LEO, I quite enjoy being able to give a decent vote for the odd comment, I miss that on the pure Hive platforms.
Certainly making those changes before getting rid of the reward pool is the way to go!
I agree it's better as a social chain - as to games, they all just seem to be subtly different versions of collectible card games - we're hardly in Halo territory, so I'm not sure how much they will fly going forwards - mainstream gaming is going VR developed by teams of 100s, we're just not competitive.
Don't get me wrong, those games are fun, but it's really is not time to drop the social aspect of Hive, part of what makes them fun (for me at least) is the communities, linked through Discord and blogs.
Great video & good arguments, but some I would def. argue about and will. Going to write a post about it. Will be posted in the coming days.
Cool, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I don't know about removing the curve. Farmers can easily make tons and tons of accounts and then farm out a lot of rewards easily.
First layer SMTs balances with second layer upvotes and distribution sounds great, is it technically possible? That would make SMTs upgradable and secure.
Hey Dan! I agree with you on the curation curve, this will help in many ways. If it is done I would like to see it on practice, that way we will learn exactly how it would work. Thinking about it the flat curation would be very good for the first 6 days or so and after that it can lower in vote and in curation rewards, let's say after 6.5 days it can go down IMO.
And talking about investors I have a funny story or lesson of someone who decided to invest in a delegation of HivePower, he sent a message to the Hive's Community Facebook page. The amount that he invested was around 500 Hive. He did not spend enough time to research how Hive works and he thought that by having the HP on his account he would win. He did this via @blocktrades so the delegation was not cheap. He asked me why he did not won any Hive and I told him that he should have voted content to win curation rewards, he did not vote any post on those 90 days.
So we do need to make things more simple and also educate the people that we onboard to Hive.
That's the tuition fee you pay, so to say.
how much of the inflation distribution you get if you stake hive and don't do anything?
10% APR inflation narrowing to 1% APR over 20 years
I see also in the future a big benefit of hive, for sure network need to growth to that point first user wise :)
call it universal log in. With a Hive account you can log in Social Media, Computer games ( like Steam or Epic games, maybe NFT game ownerships?), easy Payments for all shit on the internet from micro payments to more expensive without any fees , Ecommerce Sites ( little to big ecommerce sites) and so on.
That would be so much benefit for all people of the Internet. The potential of Hive is so big.
IMO is all a matter of time, thats all ( only my opinion).
I'm just getting back to my English and what I hear makes me feel better, because making radical changes requires studying and seeing how it impacts the individual's behavior.
Universal reward pool currently exists to reward competition. There are funds out there that can be won without convincing stake holders to give something up. That competition is what creates HIVE's value. With SMT, it'd be the same kind of idea - a marketplace of ideas
It would be great to see 2nd layer (or SMT) communication networks, but we require a 1st layer reward pool tied to HIVE that allocates HIVE to the ideas most supported by various stake holders. The decentralized governance is required, and you can't have decentralized governance without communication. Best ideas are found in a competitive market place. There will be limited people interested in that, and it's easy enough for stakeholders to proxy their witness votes to another account
This is why 1st layer, immutable communication is required. Add the better stuff on top, for sure - there can be far better blogging solutions made on SMT or L2
A very common sense 'devils advocate' position.
a community is strong when there is a balance between those who create and those who comment. HIVE tries to respect this balance, and this is already a strength of HIVE.
Hive is a social club where they are only thrown between groups or if they are friends so if a fish wants to grow it is impossible to grow, so if you want to bring new here there is no way for them to grow
Now a proposal you would make is because the stake power you get a reward and he decides to send it to his Stake power or have it to vote every 24 hours and if he doesn't claim it he loses it and returns to the reward system so hive would have more interaction and less bot.
About inflation. I do think that lowering it at around 5% now might work better. Then leave it to slowly drop in time. In the next 5 years we will have the highest inflation in absolute numbers, adding more than 150M hive. Then it will go down.
Overall the inflation is not as important if growth occurs, especialy a big one... that is not easy to achive when you look how small we are now. But cuting down inflation migh jump start or contribute to the growth in the first place. No guaranties offc...
Hey dan, i want to tell you on this point a offtopic question:
Do you want to help us to grow the #Marathon? ;-)
https://peakd.com/deutsch/@alucian/the-second-hive-steem-blurt-marathon-2020-de-eng-start-21-08-2020-voranmeldung-fuer-die-teilnahme-pre-registration-for
I hope you understand i beg not for help normaly and this time not too. But i ask with hope you think our Idea is good for the community.
Have a nice day
PS: want to READ more on a blogchain from you ;-)
Salve
Alucian
Great points about the rewards curve and the curation window Dan, in my view those 2 things is one of the biggest bumps to overcome for new users, it means less time to find them and also harder to reach above dust level, which for new users is a real thing, and one that many of them are not even aware of.
The point about earning Hive is because you need it and will continue to need it for RC, ulimately that is the long term usecase together with being the main trading pair for Hive-engine tokens and SMT's.
And yeah SMT's should be layer 1, and also be simple and easy to use, while more flexible solutions can be done on Hive-engine and layer 2.
For investors and long term value the one thing that is the most important of all is a large and growing userbase, and what can be done to make it easy to join and to successfully plug into the community is a good thing, so focus needs to be on new users and getting them to succeed.
Keep up your great work.
I like the idea of a neighbourhood so HIVE is one city with many neighbourhoods in dapps and such and then it was cities close by in STEEM and BLURT and the other forks and then the greater nation that's like alts and BTC but eventually who is using what won't matter it will all flow between one another on the back and for the user they just get a smooth seamless process. some will stay in their local areas while others would want to explore more
So, bring back the whale experiment and let the little accounts bring their friends to a place where they actually stand the chance of getting some pennies, because they will get them from their friends.
The 20 hive cut off could have just as easy been 10.
Thanks for keeping us afloat.
https://peakd.com/utopian-io/@paulag/the-impact-of-unused-steempower-on-the-rewards-pool-blockchain-business-intelligence
Lots to think about @theycallmedan - thanks, as always, for sharing your perspective. I feel much the same about keeping the universal reward pool while working towards layer 2 solutions, and I'm absolutely for getting rid of the curation curve.
As a long time WordPress blogger, I'm also crossing my fingers & toes
& eyes & arms & legs & anything else I can crossthat when @howo and @fredrikaa release the revamped & rebranded @steempress plugin for WordPress that it will be easier to onboard my WP blogging friends. At the moment, I've had a few asking me questions about Hive, and I know from those conversations that while they're interested in curating other bloggers, the whole "don't upvote in the first 3 (or is it 5?) minutes, your curation rewards take a hit if the post payout is already big, etc., etc." just hurts their brain.Just watched this. I agree 100%, remove the curve, and removing base token rewards would be a serious mistake. I think the majority of people calling for removing hive rewards probably never actually bought a single hive on the open market. It flies in the face of the 'community governance' ethos. I am sure it would cause a fork, and I would follow whatever fork supported community governance.
You want people to move to SMTs? First make SMTs work in the first place, then make an SMT worth chasing.
Dear @theycallmedan
Thanks for this interesting video and for sharing your thoughts.
I've been thinking a lot lately about idea of moving rewards to 2nd layer and I'm wondering: if neither Steem or HIVE managed (with all it's resources) to create enough value and demand - then how can we expect that those who would launch their tokens (2nd layer) will succeed?
Steem-engine and hive-engine are great example. Literally hardly any token have a value. I'm afraid that most would fail (failure is to be expected in my opinion).
Aren't you afraid, that moving rewards to 2nd layer would be complete failure? Just like most SE and HE tokens turned out to be?
Yours, Piotr