Core developers meeting #17

in #hive2 months ago (edited)

Sorry for the delay, we had some issues with the upload.

meeting tl;dr:

Dev sync:

you should listen in

Downvote proposals / Instead of downvote: feasibility of DHF vote to be adjustable in pre-set % or slider

It's a controversial topic that should be discussed with the community more before thinking it through.

Lite accounts and how those can work:

To be listened in, but basically the current stance is that account are so cheap that paying the 3 hive will be cheaper than simply the transaction fee on most other blockchains and save a lot of dev time. And in the end with rc delegations (coming hf25!) and claimed account tokens, we have somewhat "free" accounts already.

Account token transfers:

Already discussed in another meeting, we don't want to enable that because it would make it a currency, leading to everyone claiming account tokens to sell them, raising the rc cost for the claim_account_token operation, meaning the projects who actually need the tokens won't get them

Delegation pools

coming hf25

Downward inflation adjustment (reduction)

Economical changes are to be discussed with the community, this is beyond the scope of this meeting that discusses the technical feasibility of such ideas. And in this case: yes np we can easily reduce inflation.

Incoming Delegation API:

This has been touched upon a while ago, we believe it will be better if done via hivemind, than the core blockchain core.

Add an expiration parameter to delegate_vesting_shares so one can create a set-it-and-forget delegation that will automatically be revoked after a certain delay. and create a related delegate_vesting_shares_expired vop to track when the delegation is removed.

The idea is to make most if not all governance votes expire-able, in an effort to make the chain less "dead stake" controlled.

that's it for this meeting, tune in next monday at 2021/02/22 at 5pm UTC (6pm CET) for the next meeting.

If you got additional questions for the next meeting feel free to ask in the comments.

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I think we need to reduce the power-down period, or at least add an option to burn some percentage and enable investors to have some exit strategy.

Let's be honest, the bull market lasts for few months and not being able to take profit is a big deal.

As @dalz said, we have to reinvent the way HBD is created.

Not needed. Hive Loans is being developed.
https://hive.loans/

Reduced powered down is badly needed.

Hive Loans is a great addition and independent of a power down period

So, if you would like to power down rapidly you can take a loan against your HP, and for a small premium paid you are going out instantly.

How is that independent of power down?

Or we don't hold user stake hostage longer than needed for technical reasons ;)

There are very important reasons to keep the power-up period this long and it's great to have an alternative for quitters soon. It's a good compromise.

Basic functionality shouldn't depend on some added feature that may be available in the future or not.

Most reasons given for 13 weeks power down time come back to a fear of dumping.

Can you make an argument why 13 weeks is better than either 14 or 12 weeks?

I could argue why 13weeks is better than 2-4weeks.

Another side of this fear of the dump' coin is predictability and stability brought by longer power-down. It brings commitment and acknowledges the value of the community. This is what we need at this point I believe, committed users willing to take some risk, people thinking in the long term perspectives.

Anyway, who among speculators would power-up anything for 20% year to year if the market is full of better options. Anyway with the incoming open-source, DHF funded Hive Loans power-down period became an irrelevant issue IMO.

It depends how much liquid hive there will be...

To some extend just the price of the rapid power-down will be affected. The market will regulate it.

It could be solved by providing a bigger ROI for a longer stacking period.

I think it's not necessarily a bad thing to get rid of weak hands, regardless of short-term negatives.

That's another idea I liked in the discussion about potential solutions. Positive enforcement. But I see this as additional thing, not the only mechanism.

Well to be fair it's a 4 month period and powering down is not like all at once. You get 1/13 of your staked hive every week, if the bull market lasts 3 months you would have had time to withdraw most of your stake.

the "burn to exit instantly" is interesting although that could result in a lot of users getting burned when if there is a singificant drop and people panic sell.

Overall there are a lot of ideas being thrown around, I don't have a solid opinion on any of them but they are worth discussing in the hive improvement community.

I think it is time to stop thinking about power down times as a hostage situation.
A minimum power down period of 30 days is currently warranted due to account recovery. Anything above it just looks weird.

Account token transfers:
Already discussed in another meeting, we don't want to enable that because it would make it a currency, leading to everyone claiming account tokens to sell them, raising the rc cost for the claim_account_token operation, meaning the projects who actually need the tokens won't get them

Not sure what to think about this.... Why not let the free market decide... If there is need for them and they cost anything people will want them. If the cost is almost zero, people wont bother claiming ... Not sure how this will play out, but not implementing a feature, because of fear of market manipulation is a bit to much maybe ... we can only know if we implement it :)

P.S. About the inflation, first improve the HBD, as it has generated most of the Hive inflation in the past... a 40% share!

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That's my (our) point, it's currently worthless to anyone but dapps, as it should be. So why make them transferable and risk seeing them cost something ?

The problem with accounts is definitely not the 3 HIVE fee. It's storing your keys.

Some people don't even know what a blockchain is.
Others are very familiar with blockchains but can't understand why on this one there are 4 keys. This is a problem.

A lite account would allow blockchain savvy people to have wallets outside of exchanges without a having a hive account with 4 keys. They could even start earning hive in our Dapps, since transfers are free.

Resource credits would be provided by someone else, probably the Dapp.

A lite account would allow blockchain savvy people to have wallets outside of exchanges without a having a hive account with 4 keys. They could even start earning hive in our Dapps, since transfers are free.

Well that's where you can look into what 3speak is doing, they don't generate all three keys when creating an account, they manage everything on the account, and generate keys when the user asks for it to take as much complexity from the user as possible.

And they do it for free thanks to account tokens.

Resource credits would be provided by someone else, probably the Dapp.

Rc delegations are coming soon:tm: ;)

I know about the RC delegations, excited for that.

And I also like what 3speak and leo are doing with keys, but it's still a problem.

1- Harder for dapps to implement such a system without lite accounts.
2- If the dapp is hacked, then hackers have access to potentially thousands of hive accounts, it's a huge honeypot.
3- When newbies learn about this, they might feel betrayed. As in "wait this whole time they had my keys???? I thought this was decentralized." Lite accounts allow sovereignty with only one key.

It could be argued that currently, the custodial solution is good enough, since there is a lot of important work to do. Now that I would understand.

But the benefits of lite accounts shouldn't be discounted, might be useful to implement them in the future.

Edit- another huge advantage of lite accounts would be the usability across all hive dapps. The current custodian solutions only work on one dapp at a time. A single user has to create multiple hive accounts if he uses different dapps.

How is our measly 7%, and declining, inflation constantly a topic?

EDIT1:

Lite accounts and how those can work:
To be listened in, but basically the current stance is that account are so cheap that paying the 3 hive will be cheaper than simply the transaction fee on most other blockchains

The idea behind lite accounts is that they are easier to use and a safe way to hold HIVE off exchanges.

How is our measly 7%, and declining, inflation constantly a topic?

🤷‍lots of people feel like it's too much

The idea behind lite accounts is that they are easier to use and a safe way to hold HIVE off exchanges.

Yes and it goes back to the original point, say you wanted to hold btc or eth off exchange, you will pay more in transaction fees to go from the exchange to the free wallet than you would pay creating a hive account and paying 3 hive.

And as I said, you may not even have to pay the 3 hives as you can claim free tokens if you have enough hp.

Yes, but Hive has no transaction fees ;)

Thank you for the re-cap of things coming up, good to hear still working on the witness issue and on the RC issue.

You have discussed many issues. Thank you @howo from all hive users.

Good issue ,. thanks for sharing

Thank you for such an interesting post. You have made a very useful analysis and shared it with everyone.