An Idea

in #hive3 years ago

Now that the HF is over, talks of what will happen next HF are popping up, and SMTs are at the top of the discussion. SMTs + RC delegation, a true lvl up for Hive.

With the talk of SMTs, comes the debate on layer 1 vs layer 2. Should SMTs be on layer 1? There is actually support for both by many people, including me.

I like the idea of both, if possible. The idea would be layer 1 is for SMT account balances, and layer 2 is for everything else. We did similar with Hive token itself, lots of features that were on layer 1 were moved to hivemind to improve node performance. The idea is to have a plane that works, and remove any unnecessary weight slowing the plane down, that's where layer 2 comes in. The same idea with Bitcoin, they don't want to spam the chain with large blocks thus moving "micro" transactions to second layers.

The main thing that needs absolute protection is account balances, things like voting can be the second layer.

As you know there is a group of Hiver working to decentralize Hive Engine (https://discord.gg/GdHGk7 join the convo) and the goal is to have a decentralized side chain capable of smart contracts. With a decentralized sidechain you can have IBC (inner blockchain communication) and what happened with LEO would be avoided if we had a decentralized governance layer protecting transactions. The demand for these products is here, and I believe if we can deliver we will start to see the blossoming of many different types of communities. Combine this with a decentralized storage system powered by a hive native token, this will make things like video to NFT storage completely decentralized, but also helps the Hive ecosystem by keeping it all "in house." It would be easier to build the storage system on another chain, but it is my belief it would not be as robust. Thus, creating it on hive, building the pipes/plumbing necessary is long term thinking and I think the short term pains will lead to long term gains.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on SMTs? or "HMTs"? :) Either way, let me know any ideas you may have for them, and how pumped are you to finally have SMTs on Hive?!

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One thing I have hear about SMTs is that once the initial configuration is setup, it can not be changed. Like inflation, and some similar things ... It would be great if the SMTs are in general much more flexible ... keeping unnecessary thing on l2 is great.

I agree here, would be nice if possible.

Even if it is not possible to change the parameters to an already created SMT/HMT, you can always create a new one with different characteristics and airdrop the tokens to the existing holders.
I've heard that the fee to create will be minimal.

great idea

I've been a fan of SMTs since the early days of Steem. I came here for the blogging, but was enamored by the idea of SMTs which is why Hive-Engine drew me in so deeply about 1 1/2 years ago when it was first launched.

Your mindset is the right one: spend the time/resources laying down the pipes and foundation to allow other people to buidl. That's the future of Hive but it takes a long-term mindset to make it happen since the instant gratification won't be there for projects like that.

Also the resource delegation/pools feature would be huge. We've been building out our own onboarding solutions for Leo and we can now easily onboard accounts up to the thousands and even low tens of thousands. The issue we then run into is that scaling up from there will require a massive amount of RCs and account claims that would be inefficient to handle by ourselves (inefficient in the sense that there are thousands of HP stakeholders out there with dormant RCs).

If we could rent these dormant RCs and utilize a pool for our onboarded users, it would be incredibly more efficient than staking an endless amount of HP to supply them directly from our official account(s) AND would provide a greater incentive for other investors to power up HIVE, HODL and earn from RC delegations.

@splinterlands has been experiencing this issue of inefficiency as well as they delegate ~10HP to each new user of the game. The demand for features like this are here already and are only destined to grow as more buidlers come to Hive.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Well summarized. RC delegation indeed is the need of day.

For me the real success of smt tokens would be the ability to have drag and drop solutions ready to go for a small fee.

To be able to buy a customisable version of financeleo with token pair, ad revenue, interface all ready to go and customise by dragging a mouse. Imagine if we could all create a customised, monetised community site in minutes where all we need to do is get people to join and start earning our token.

Have all these tokens tradable to hive in the wallet page or on any of the various hive dex. With in built ads the token value would be directly related to your ability to onboard and retain users.

Then there could be a proper hive community for art, sport, ect... Or even tie in an existing site to the tokenised system and wallet page.

It does need to be very simple if we are to gain adoption. LeoFinance is beautifully put together but it could only be done by a handful of people. For real adoption and success we need to be at the point where any person can create an smt and be able to make their community look like that.

The other thing that we need is better fiat/hive bridges for people wanting to buy into these communities and buy hive directly with a card. That and a phone app like the crypto.com app for hive tokens where its linked to a debit card and you can trade assets over and back with staking and swap to usd for purchasing in real life.

It would also be great down the line for one of the apps like dapplr to have a setting to only show one community feed. That way you could set the app to the sports community and it would double as an interface for your smt. Imagine being able to have a phone app as part of the smt package just by choosing the correct settings instead of having to pay for one to be build or try to set up another option.

That would be an amazing package for anybody wanting to build online with their own,

sports.hive website,

complete with token pair, revenue system, marketplace, phone app all as part of one sports community package. There would be a lot of people who would want to buy that set up outside of crypto too. I've tried to do all of them separately at one stag eor another and it's expensive and complicated to do from zero. If I could pay 500 and get the full set up it is a no brainer.

Posted using Dapplr

Who exactly is working on Hive SMT development? On the old chain, wasn't @roadscape the driving force? Who is it here?

This is what I keep asking.
A roadmap needs to be presented for investors.

Dan ends his post (which is just words) with:

how pumped are you to finally have SMTs on Hive?!

Such sentences are headlines. They need to be actual.
Or else they exists essentially as FAKE NEWS/CLICKBAIT.

You only win over the choir with this post @theycallmedan.
To gain serious interest you need it well presented.

  • TEAM
  • ROADMAP
  • ISSUES/SOLUTIONS
  • POTENTIAL/USE CASES

Then start to market it as you are approaching goals.
As is, no one outside of Hive can find this information.
It's not a good approach all done in chat groups on discord.

4j16oo.jpg

Even though I am not an investor, developer, I am looking forward to SMT/HMT. If I am seeing it right, someone could build a Store credit/reward card similar to what a lot of big stores have where they add a little bit of a customer reward to your card for a future discount on a purchase you make later.

The problem is the reward card only works at that store and you can not transfer your rewards from Store Ones card to Store Twos card. SMT's seem like they would allow for the simple easy transfer of rewards from one card to another, so all those coffee rewards, grocery store reward, drug store rewards, could all be combined and transferred over to you Favorite Restaurant Reward card for a free meal.

Whether a level 1 or level 2 system for me is not important, just the transfer ability from one card to another.

I got dibs on the name 'Green Stamps'.

Those worked pretty good for awhile, fill a few books in with stamps from all different types of stores, and then trade them in for something you really didn't need but still it was free. My mom liked saving the stamps and getting little things she would never spend real money on.

Green Stamps were a prophecy of SMTs.

Should SMTs be on layer 1?

No.

Not even just account balances?

If we keep changing the 1st layer, we'll never have stable code to build upon. It's been hellish trying to keep a Hive app running with so many hard forks going on.

The 1st layer's job is primarily to run SMOOTHLY 24/7 - like a well greased engine.

We can add more bells and whistles (SMTs) on the 2nd layer.

Ask the geek about Vaporchains. Lets talk about getting email on here somehow. SMTs leave a bad taste in my mouth but it relates to Smart Contracts which is something Vaporchains can facilitate rather nicely.

On a side note: Thank you for being a great Mayor on this chain.

Screenshot 2020-10-06 at 5.40.22 PM.png

I think first layer is a must, and layer 2 can be an add on. Some SMTs will want to be easily upgradable, and for that we will need layer 2.

But other SMTs will never want to upgrade. Not being upgradable has its own advantages. Would you buy Bitcoin if inflation could be changed to 15% a year? What if I want to create an SMT with 0% inflation and keeping it all layer 1 so that everyone knows it will never be changed?

That's why we need SMTs on layer 1, not just token balances but also inflation rate and all the other attributes which steemit devs already coded.

I tend to think everything should stay out of layer 1. It should all be layer 2. I've been saying every open ended smart contract platform is doomed to fail. We have 3 second block times. The amount of shit we can do is finite because of that. I'd move all of this to layer 2s. it doens't have to be hive-engine. let there be competition, but keep layer 1 as clean as possible.

So the fork is done completelly? Still seing some minor bugs here and there

Keeping with the vocabulary of this post... they moved stuff out of layer 1 and put more in layer 2 (not really part of the hive hardfork)... layer 1 works great and layer 2 is now not working so well.

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Building these new features on a new chain could be easier but is definetly the wrong way to go about it.

Here we have an established community who will support changes that improve the chain regardless of the hiccups - you just have to look at LEO to see that.

Eventually, incentivized social media will become just one of the things that you can do on Hive. DeFi on Hive for example would be incredible considering there a no fees involved.

Posted using Dapplr

"DeFi on Hive for example would be incredible considering there a no fees involved."
It has no fees. For DeFi it has no compensation. How this will works?

DeFi is not all about liquidity provision where LP's earn from the fees. People are able to leverage their crypto take up quick loans to capitalize on arbitrage opportunities or maybe buy more a particular coin expecting that it will go on a bull run.

Posted using Dapplr

So I guess that all that we are discution here and those that use DeFi properly know about about. So the question here is about aggregation for the Hive. So I guess that there no news on our discussion. Something that could be contributed for.

SMT/HMTs would be nice, but I'd like to see RC delegation prioritized equally on. Then advertising would make more sense as on-boarding and 'fueling' a new account would be seamless.

RC delegation is necessary for SMTs, so RC delegation will be finished before SMTs.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that RC delegations was basically already written. I guess that is not true?

SMTs were discussed for years but the only project that delivered something similar or better was Hive-Engine. Maybe it's better to focus the resources and energy to decentralize and improve H-E instead.

That's exactly what we are doing with H-E. You can join the convo here https://discord.gg/GdHGk7

This is what I’ve been waiting on for years. The Hive community is as strong as it is because we all have skin in the game. When apps and communities have that same feature where you can truly get some ownership in said dapp or community things will really start to get interesting.

But...

It needs to be braindead easy. That’s what’s held us back for all these years imo which I’m sure everyone knows by now.

Yep, I like how aggroed puts it, "no code" - people want to click not code to spin up easy solutions. We are at a full sprint towards that direction, its not if but when at this point.

Indeed 😎
GPT-3

noob question: how is resource credit delegation different from HP delegation?

HP controls voting power where RC is just for resource credits. So I could delegate someone RC and keep my HP. The RCs would give the account the ability to post but their upvotes would not be worth any hive if they didn't have HP.

Good news for all hivers around the world. In the future we will see whether the results of HF provide pleasant changes in this ecosystem. I hope so and it makes us even more excited.

I can’t wait for SMTs, and I think it should be done in Layer 1, like an ERC20 equivalent. We already have Layer 2 tokens via Hive-engine, but to get traction from outside Hive for the SMTs, we need Layer 1 SMTs to ensure safety of funds + decentralisation etc.

And I’m really hoping that these SMTs have as many configurable parameters as possible.

Sidechains should be used for things that are ok to be a little bit less secure. This can be game data or any social content - but the tokens should be on the highest security level - I would thus leave them on layer 1.
As a side note, the ability to feely generate smart contracts on a side chain would be awesome - to my knowledge this is not possible on hive engine and is also not planned, which I think is not ideal for the system.

Any plans to reduce power down time?

Good morning friend

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Rc delegation is one of the most important feature required. Dapps like @splinterlands @leofinance and any more who are onboarding new users to platform require a much efficient and sustainable way to use resources. RC delegation is the key to it. Splinterlands is already delegating bunch of HP to new users so they are able to play game. RC delegation should be preferred in next HF.

I'm not an expert of blockchain or SMT's, so can't say that where they should be. But i think they will enable hive to step ahead. Already we are seeing potential of hive-engine tokens. so if they are more decentralized in terms of SMT, then that's the way forward. and what ever you call them either SMT or HMT it doesn't matter unless that works.

I think that layer 1 should include all the financial elements:
account balances, transfers, staking, inflation, voting, rewards (and ideally trading).

This would enable:
(a) A new community (from outside Hive) to launch a simple-and-secure HMT on layer 1 without having to worry about any layer 2 complexities or security concerns.
(b) The Hive reward pool to be moved from HIVE to an HMT (which I think a lot of people still support). This HMT would still be on layer 1.

These "core" layer 1 elements should be free (apart from an initial set-up cost for the company / community setting up the coin). This is one of Hive's most attractive elements compared to other blockchains.

They should also be fast, i.e. 3 seconds (or even less in future). Fast-and-free.

More complex / specialised elements and other smart-contracts can then be on layer 2.

The one area I could see moving off layer 1 is post / comment content. This could be on a side-chain.

This would reduce layer 1 blockchain size substantially / prevent bloat in blocks as Hive becomes more popular / allow improved speed?

Essentially here I think we want the core "coin / financial" layer to be fast and secure. There's potential for a little more "give" when retrieving / storing content.

If we manage to execute SMT's properly, providing turnkey solutions to random entrepreneurs I think we can make a big deal out of it. However, if we don't market it properly, I'm afraid one of the most legit tech out there will stay under the radar. Looking forward to some AMA from devs if they find some time.

I believe the next step we choose will have a high impact on the overall benefit of the platform.

The main thing that needs absolute protection is account balances, things like voting can be the second layer.

Why would distributing hive be any less subject to being compromised than holding hive?
How less secure is '2nd layer'?

Goal is to have a decentralized side chain capable of smart contracts.

Side chain features are third generation of blockchain and this would be an ideal goal to our HIVE