Born Again Christian's Infuriatingly Illogical 'Debate' with Vegan Activist. Uses Bible To Justify Enjoying Murdering Animals.

in #spirituality3 years ago

Joey Carbstrong is a vegan and animal rights activist who has dedicated his life to outreach and education. He regularly uploads thought provoking conversations with members of the public to social media. In this episode he faces a particularly brainwashed and ill prepared 'Christian' who insists that it's ok to kill innocent animals 'because he's allowed to' even though he agrees that the perfect humans were Adam & Eve, who were vegan. The denial is palpable, the logic is painful...

As a rational person with an open mind, I like to consider other people's ideas and thinking. If they demonstrate clear and coherent logic that doesn't have holes in it then I might adopt it in my own thinking. If they have holes in their thinking and appreciate having them pointed out - then I respect them. If they have holes in their logic and refuse to look at them, then I know there is a red flag regarding their integrity, balance and safety. If they refuse to look at their errors in areas where they are causing harm to others, then there is no doubt to me that they are dangerous.

In this video, Joey talks with an Australian "born again Christian" who claims to be a scientist, while espousing some of the least well thought out ideas I've heard in a long time regarding creation and life itself.

I could write an entire book on how obscenely denial ridden his ideas are, but I'll leave it to you to feel them for yourself.

Here's an amusing summary of one aspect:

  1. He says, paraphrasing: humans have genetically and spiritually decayed since 'the garden of eden'. we can't trust our own conscious - we need to only trust the bible.
  2. The bible was written by humans a very long time after the garden of eden and after genetics have decayed a whole lot - But we should still trust those people's writings to be the word of God (infallible) because those humans that wrote the bible were right... Despite having suffered genetic entropy.. because.. they said we should. lol
  3. His logic effectively means that if Jesus returns or the holy spirit speaks through people today and says something to correct what was in the Bible we must ignore it because the bible is right and nothing has been learned in 2000 years of any use.

This would be amusing if we weren't talking about a grown man justifying him hacking the heads from living animals because - in his own words - he 'enjoys' it! Just evil.



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That was painful to watch. Couldn't finish it. I can tell the fella holds to a Premillenial Eschatology so I wouldn't expect the rest of his theology to be remotely coherent.

He says, paraphrasing: humans have genetically and spiritually decayed since 'the garden of eden'. we can't trust our own conscious - we need to only trust the bible.

I think what you mean to say is consciousness. The doctrine to which the man speaks is commonly known as total depravity which you may also think of as spiritual inability but not in the sense of the word spirituality like as in a Zen Buddhist.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 KJVS
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The bible was written by humans a very long time after the garden of eden and after genetics have decayed a whole lot - But we should still trust those people's writings to be the word of God (infallible) because those humans that wrote the bible were right... Despite having suffered genetic entropy.. because.. they said we should. lol

θεόπνευστος is a word used in the verse below and means God-breathed. The words proceed from the indwelling Spirit (which you reference later) and not from the flesh which is subject to corruption.

2 Timothy 3:16 KJVS
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Luke 12:11-12 KJVS
And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: [12] For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

As I could not finish the cringe-inducing video, I can't speak much to the laat point but can say there verses that support the biblical canon being closed as well as cessation of charismatic gifts. Try to tell that to televangelists lying to people for donations though. 🙄

I think what you mean to say is consciousness.

In the video, Joey is talking about him trusting/using his own conscience - I used the wrong word. He is referring to his own ethical compass rather than the simple consciousness of what is.

The words proceed from the indwelling Spirit (which you reference later) and not from the flesh which is subject to corruption.

The words were written by incarnated humans. We literally ARE spirits incarnating into density that we know as 'physical'. It is not possible to write text with a physical body without physical influences being involved - nor would it be healthy, wise or balanced to do so. It's fine to take insights from less dense planes of self and spirit - but without them being balanced in the heart and grounded in the Earth realm, there is no way for them to take into consideration all factors and thus they contain error that 'sounds nice' but that doesn't really achieve grace or balance. The bible came through flesh, from spirits - no way around it. His argument's logic is broken and he is in denial.

As I could not finish the cringe-inducing video, I can't speak much to the laat point but can say there verses that support the biblical canon being closed as well as cessation of charismatic gifts.

This is a convenient trick to disconnect you from god and your own evolution. Spirit is always making available insights and the tools we need to grow, come into balance and heal. Any thought or belief which even remotely says this is not possible is itself a tool of our own destruction since thinking defines to some extent what we will allow in and what we can see/hear/sense and understand.

Interesting thoughts. I would say from a technical sense that it would be the Spirit operating through the flesh as you said.

I think it is safe to say we both disagree with the professing Christian's premise that we cannot rely on contemporary information due to genetic decay. Hell, I have close experience with this genetic decay as one diagnosed with Ehlers Danlos Type II, a genetic disorder, but it doesn't prevent me from saying something that is objectively true like 2+2=4.

Despite this decay that may sometimes affect mental faculties that could potentially result in erroneous or fallacious thinking, we generally have access to information that which is objectively true or reasonably enough certain that it can be relied upon. Now, when we discuss spiritual revelation, that is a another ballpark entirely.

For the purposes of discussion, not sure if this aspect is even relevant. Think the important thing to not is we are not expressly constrained from nor compelled to eat meat in the Bible. Whether or not one does is according to the principles of their own conscience. That's what Romans 14 gets at and what the man evidently missed

As for the last part, it really depends on what you mean. If you mean things like miraculous faith healings, yeah I believe that has ceased. My goto text would be the following:

Philippians 2:25-27 KJVS
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. [26] For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. [27] For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

If faith healings were still a think, I would think Paul would have healed Epaphroditus but was unable. It's not that I dismiss all powers that may be unlocked by the human spirit. I do believe in meditation, fasting and prayer for instance. I just don't get caught up in the hocus pocus faith healing, snake charming, and speaking in tongues jibber-jabbering of those that are far out in "Christian" mysticism. I generally only go as far as what there is a biblical precedent (or empirical basis) and believe a lot of the stuff the evangelicals do is very strange imho.

I am really pointing to the reality that God is within all people to some extent, though has been extinguished to all but the most feint glimmer in many through their own belief systems that filter out that essence and connection. Therefore, it is entirely possible for us to receive insight, loving light/understanding and healing internally in that way. Anyone saying that it is not possible to receive this from God in the present moment and trying to get others to agree is a very dangerous individual who does not understand God at all (well, either that or is actively working to deny God).

The Scriptures teaches of a group of people that doesn't quite fit.

John 8:42-47 KJVS
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [43] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. [46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? [47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Despite their being described as not of God but the devil, would they be able to receive the things for which you speak?

Everything is manifesting through the one singular origin of all things - so 'the devil' is actually a fragment of the original god and is essentially unloving light (spirit). the unlovingness originates in a decision to not feel all feelings, hence the origin of psychopathy. most people are engaging in this to some extent and hold some unloving light. being of a particular religion is in no way a guarantee of not being involved here.

this all comes down to whether an individuated being or soul decides that the words in a book said to be from a man they have never met, a long time ago, are the only possibly right understanding of the infinite and of god. if someone is open to learning that there is more to know than is in that book and that much has been learned since then, then they may be able to see beyond the extreme polarisation of 'you're either with us or you're with the terrorists'.

in direct answer to your question - anyone who chooses to heal, balance and evolve and is willing to open to directly receive the loving light of god now can do so. unfortunately, there is so much confusion about how to do this and what love even is, that it is not so simple. many are numb and unable to feel love, so they are not going to find it easy at first to discern the true source of any light they may open to receive. rapid learning is needed now.

@ura-soul are you alive? Wink twice if we need to send a search party. I got you.

Hey, I'm alive :)
I just had to take a flight between cities here in Australia. Currently sorting out a lot of stuff, but I'll get to replying to you here asap.

Almost forgot to include these. We can certainly discuss profitability of consuming meat or alternatives. The professing Christian certainly missed the mark on the first verse.

1 Corinthians 10:23 KJVS
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:2-5 KJVS
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. [3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. [4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. [5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This conveniently denies the unfelt, the unheard and the misunderstood - aka those spirits incarnating in animal forms. Just because a book states something or spirit states something, does not mean that it is inherently correct and is not denying something important. People who can truly feel and who open their hearts and minds understand that animals feel and have sentience/consciousness that is also connected to God.

If you tell me that it's ok for me to cut off your fingers and eat them, I will not do so because I know that the act is harmful through my own understanding - plus I don't need to eat them because I can eat plant foods. It doesn't matter how many times or in how many ways you tell me it's fine, I won't do it because I use my God given heart and conscience to discern reality deeply.

However, if you go around eating the fingers of other people - claiming that 'god told you in a book it's ok' - then, rightly, many people will attack you or even kill you. When we understand that animals are just people/spirits with different forms - this is going to cause conflict, no matter how many bible verses are quoted.

I highly recommend this documentary on animal / human telempathy to expand horizons here:

https://www.ureka.org/videos/watch/29104/the-animal-communicator-anna-breytenbach-full-documentary