Book - Securing Digital Rights for Communities | Chapter 13. Attack Vectors and What to Do

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and we've got multiple different attack vectors to talk about here um so but obviously the

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most obvious one based on all of the tech that we've been talking about would be a 50% attack

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whereby well the important thing here is it's 50 percent of the voting stake because a lot of the stake

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is dead it's dead stake it's either investors that don't bother using their stake or voting

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with it or investors that are holding long term they're not interested in the governance

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or investors that died and they don't have control of their stake anymore or anonymous

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investors that don't want to vote so there's a certain portion of the stake let's say on average

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on these systems that we're describing it comes to maybe 35 to 40 percent of the stake that is

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active voting stake and if you get control that's dormant um during or that's peaceful voting during

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peaceful times yes during the tax it rises it can rise um and so if you get control over 50 percent

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of that

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you can take over the chain there's not 50 percent of the actual well if every single token was

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voting then it's a 50 attack but in reality it's more like 30 40 percent of the tokens that vote

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maybe during an attack you can get to 45 percent of the tokens um and then you have to get control

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over that so you can get control over 30 percent of all tokens on the on the chains then maybe you

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can have some yeah that's why people they go with they say prove a stake oh to attack a

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ethereum and then they take the entire market cap of ethereum and then they say oh well you would

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need you know 33 percent of that proof of stakes 33 percent delegate proof of stakes 51 there's a

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technical reason for that to have proof of stake at 51 that means you need 51 of all the nodes in

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the network to agree well that becomes incredibly cumbersome and slow when you don't have a

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parameter count on nodes so proof of stake that you can have it at any level but the consensus

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is around 33 so if you own 34 of the consistent hash or the consistent stake you can control

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future upgrades you can basically dominate the network so how would be the best way done in your

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opinion to go about putting together a 51 attack in these depots ecosystems there's two ways right

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one way is to shock the system by doing a couple of otc deals where you manage to get your hands

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on massive stakes in short periods of time and you can control future upgrades you can control

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long periods of time but because Hive has a one month voting delay so after you've powered up

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your tokens so that you can vote you have to wait for one month it gives the community time to react

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and potentially freeze tokens if you aren't proving yourself to be a benevolent force to

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the community in that one month period delay before you can actually vote your own witnesses

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in and the other one is a slow accumulation over a number of years that potentially enriches

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the community but it's a stealthy a more stealthy attack and you have to hope that no one notices

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what you're doing yeah those would be pretty much either slow accumulation which is a red queen game

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basically what does red queen mean and you have to so a red queen means somebody is ahead of you

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at all times so you have to put in work just to get at their base level for instance a red queen

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game would be validators only getting stake in order to keep up with them

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which what they're getting you need to buy off the market they don't need to buy since they're

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getting the inflation so that would be definition of a red queen game justin sun played this he was

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money attacking the network however the network was accumulating stake proof of um incentivized

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stakeholder distribution validators we had the dow so there was inflation leaking out that he

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had to keep up with because that kept inflating the voting power of the and diluting his

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purchase so he had to keep buying just to stay still so the definition of red queen is having

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to run faster and faster just to stay still basically and um so that is a problem there's

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only so much stake out there the way to do it is during lazy bear markets when more people are

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selling it's peaceful it's quiet that'd be the time to accumulate the big the big um it's not

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so much accumulation

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which hypothetically in my opinion is impossible I don't know if you can get 51 of the stake on

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Hive to vote I don't think it'd be possible I think once you start to encroach it would just

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get so high market cap it becomes so scarce because the more you buy the more popular it

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gets the more people to know about the more people that buy it now you have more competition

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so it's a direct so negative it's a negative feedback loop it's also like a red queen game

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in that sense because if you manage to

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mess up your your accumulation to the point where it's clear that you're accumulating other

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people will then accumulate and take away the accumulating that you were supposed to be doing

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from you so you have that to contend with as well if you're attacking the network in a slow stealth

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way so the so okay so if I had to look at both attack parameters keep in mind I think the 51

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percent is nearly impossible nothing's impossible that's not even the hardest hurdle the hardest

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one to take out front unknown Quitfreaks

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um

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um

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s

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um

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comes you'd want the attack to be instant so you don't have to battle the inflation

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once you do it slow over time you're now battling inflation you'd have to not only

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beat inflation but you'd have to get not noted you you'd have to not be noticed it's not impossible

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but it's a very savvy attack it would take a government level entity to pull that off over

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many many years the thing is he couldn't do it instantly there is I cannot see an instant attack

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vector on Hive you can say we make Hive illegal but we have defenses against that

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there's no other way to take down Hive but to get 51 of the stake get it through that one month net

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and then get it consistently long enough through that one month net to dominate the network to get

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a fork to then do what you want with the network um incredibly difficult but that's the thing as

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well because you you'd be accumulating slowly

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you'd be accumulating slowly and then you'd be accumulating slowly and then you'd be accumulating

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the second you powered up and all these because you'd be accumulating with thousands of small

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nodes right over time you'd accumulate small amounts of the token into many many many different

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accounts and then at a certain point you would coordinate the voting of those accounts and it

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would kind of still have to come out of nowhere you know I mean you could do it slowly

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but if you did it slowly at a certain point the community would realize that

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these unknown accounts are all thousands of them are all starting to vote against the interest of

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the community yeah at which point the community would just fork away anyway you wouldn't vote

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so you're savvy you wouldn't vote with them if you were really savvy you would use those accounts

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to vote for honest witnesses until there's enough stake that way you can instantly direct switch

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yeah that'd be the way to do it but then you'd still get a fork you'd still get a fork unless and

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new witnesses that you've brought in were benevolent to the community as well for a period

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of time that's the thing no matter what we have the fork so the fork is the ultimate so you can't

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win even if you did all that you still have it out there's no way where you say ha ha got you

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now again proof of work proof of stake there's a got you moment there is there is one there is one

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where you could sow disagreement over a long period of time within the community

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to the point where the disagreement isn't strong enough such that it would cause a fork on it in

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but when you eventually push your accounts to cause a fork you can almost guarantee the community

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will fork and fragment into multiple different communities yeah we're talking about a very

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highly sophisticated so here you would need not only 51 of the tech for a sustainable amount of

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time and get it through the net in a quiet way you'd also need to sow seeds with discord

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because that's the thing the only way to get this to work the ultimate scenario the fork there needs

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to have a cohesive fork and that means the moment they switch for their stake to attack the network

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that's an alien invasion everyone acts in the best interest because it's like we put agreements aside

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for the greater enemy that's always going to happen if they're not always but let's say on

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Hive we've seen it happen again we can likely predict it'll happen again if someone was to

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quietly out of nowhere just throw everyone out and change everything people would get pissed

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we would unite and it would be most likely to have a cohesive fork but in this instance you'd have to

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very long long tail attack where you accumulate from the accumulate enough stake voting for

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witnesses sowing discord to when there was a fork there'd be enough controversy to where you'd have

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two or three it that still in that scenario there isn't a way to completely stop it you would still

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have bleeding out so I'm talking I'm talking as the attacker when I say bleeding out that means

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I'm losing so if I'm the attacker and I want to dominate the network I'm saying okay I've done

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boom so discord I'm going for my move but they have outlets three forks that I can't control yeah

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they might not be as strong but they're still there and I need to dominate those so it's like

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it becomes another attack and the reason the reason those corner the mountain mole so to speak

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for avoidance of doubt the reason those forks would work is because those forks say the three

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or four forks that are all not quite in agreement with each other they want their own version of a

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new fork they wouldn't drop tokens to the attacker and all the attacker accounts they would

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drop they would drop tokens for everyone else in the community but exclude their own so first of

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all you just enrich the community with a new set of market caps and secondly the community's probably

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going to be smart enough not to fall for that shit anyway and they're probably going to be smart

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enough to just to move to a new chain to one chain and exclude the attacker's accounts and then after

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that decide where they're going to fork to on top of that even if there are multiple forks

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it's generally the case that one fork will ultimately win out anyway so you you you have to

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have a real it's it's a really specific set of circumstances where you manage to get three forks

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that break away that actually stay separate yeah the worst case scenario is not even that bad we

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still survive yeah um in fact you could even make a it's almost like a head a hydra head because you

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could make three three or four separate communities they're equally as powerful what people don't big

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risk what people fail to forget is the only reason

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any of these chains have value I say chains Hive or bitcoin has value because it has censorship

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resistance there's four three or four separate forks and I was saying that potentially one or

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two or three of those could even become more powerful than the original fork so you never

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attack you is there's a risk that that could happen as well you can never dominate the network

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to the point where there's a got you moment you can dominate proof of stake why because if you

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don't have reputation you don't know who to air drop the coins to because there's no reputation

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you can say I'm not going to air job to these people but then these people so if we're talking

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infinite money then that does not matter reputation they can just pop up as top validator and they

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would dominate the network if you're not voted in and you have 51 because there's a difference in

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proof of stake when you're a big ass staker because the majority of proof of stake does not

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vote the reason they don't vote is because it's heavy impact evidence the chances are that you're

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infrastructure you need 92 eth and if you don't do that then you're going to a centralized pool

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anyway it could be decentralized but then it has to be its own layer one so it doesn't make sense

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so you can assume it should be centralized because it'll be his own chain at that point

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so in order to have reputation you can always land on your feet because you can trust it's

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like a skeleton and the fat is the attack melt the fat the skeleton the bones always stay in

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place you can always take the last zero the reputable last zero still and with proof of

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work it's even worse because you don't when you get attacked you don't get richer so if you attack

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a network and like fuck we got a fork now you're poor because you have to fork you didn't get paid

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for it and you have to and they could just keep attacking you and we saw this a big one cash you

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had to literally centralize their um checkpoint they had a checkpoint centralizing checkpoint

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where it's like x amount of blocks and then you can't fork

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and

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then bsv has a trusted node system which ends up as infrastructure voting non-voting non-parameter

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not non-parametered non-voting trusted infrastructure voting so it's basically like

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I'm a I'm a minor these guys are minors and in order to get into the club you have to get the

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agreement of all of us who are the originals so it's like delegated proof is taken away but these

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people weren't voted in and they're doing infrastructure voting so they were self-anointed

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so we see what happens when you try to challenge the number one proof of work coin you can't because

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they have a cop their attack vector is ha ha they literally just point their fucking hash rate at you

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and laugh and you like frying in the sun and then they come back and they don't lose any money

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because they're killing an attack vector because they have billions of infrastructure for the

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bitcoin network so to be an alternative infrastructure voting is terrible it's very

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difficult it takes a lot of infrastructure coin voting is vast

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vastly superior

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yeah so with the 51 attack um what else are we missing here regards to this

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um

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the only the thing the thing that's important to remember the 51 attack is that on a depost system

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so there's caveats to what we've said there's caveats the caveats are that you have to have

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to resist this you have to

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have a strong distribution you have to have a well distributed coin ideally with a really strong

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middle class and you can measure that on your chain you can see how many dolphins orcas and

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whales you have you can see how many plankton you have and if you have a well distributed lower class

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lower middle class upper middle class and higher upper class it's incredibly because because it's

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incredibly difficult to attack because you could purchase the coins on an OTC deal and over-the-counter

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with say five of the top whales on the on the ecosystem you could get them to collude to sell

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you their coins right for I don't know you pay 50 100 more on an otc deal but if it's a well

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distributed token that won't make any difference because you won't be able to accumulate enough

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stake to affect the voting you know if you see one of these chains this is another way to affect

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these chains actually there's another way to attack this you figure out a way to acute to

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allow the whales to accumulate too much supply so that then you can do an over over the counter

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deal with the whales and you can accumulate enough supply for yourself without affecting the price

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so that you can force a 51 attack for yourself by doing an over the counter deal with rich whales

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so it's up to the community to monitor that the token is well distributed and there is a healthy

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middle class if the token doesn't have a healthy middle class you're starting to get into trouble

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ground

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and the whales need to know this the whales on the platforms need to know this because they it's in

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their interest to make sure there is a healthy middle class by investing in it if they get too

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greedy and they accumulate too many of the tokens for themselves they become a security risk and

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therefore they become liable to be forked out by the community so as long as the whales understand

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that and they're always they're always knowledgeable that they're accountable back to the layer zero

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ultimately that's what provides their value because it's the layer zero the the lower class

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using their ecosystem

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that provides value to the token there's a nice symbiosis there and it's very very very difficult

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for an attacker to then accumulate or get an otc deal on enough tokens to make these 51 attacks work

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so it's and and then this comes back to as we discussed previously

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the distribution mechanism distribute to your infrastructure distribute to your witnesses

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distribute to any of the services that required to keep the chain the ecosystem decentralized to the token.

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but also distribute to your community members by things like content creation playing games doing

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actions community things that benefit the community everyone can get rewarded for all these things in

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an accountable transparent way on the chain it means there's a very strong distribution mechanism

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and that's what this all comes down to I think the fundamental defense to these 51 attacks is having

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a strong well distributed token across a multiple uh multiple faceted uh various different community

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members that are doing different things for the community.

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you you have that in place and you monitor that that's the case if you move away from that you

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start to get into trouble right you start to become weak so your priority is even as a whale

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on these platforms has to be constantly figuring out and monitoring how do you distribute tokens to

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the lower classes for dignified um fair value contributions to the ecosystem you do that

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it's it's basically impossible it's impossible to to take over these chains to 51 attack them

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you see why us drops a lot of money in random countries because it matters it's not so much

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this is all a belief system and if a lot of people the spread of physical dollars makes

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the dollar incredibly strong so if you have people in all of the all over the world that

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have a certain currency or certain I don't view Hive as a currency I believe it as a bandwidth

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token or realist digital real estate but either way if you have enough people with a value transfer

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mechanism

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it reaches critical mass and it becomes valuable just because of its network effect there's

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people keep trying to find what value is and it's like going into air

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it's not like it's not really there because we create what value really is

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so the demand for the token creates the value the the the demand for censorship

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resistance because we agree censorship resistance has value yeah and it's the same thing with the

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dollar and the same thing with everything else we all choose what we believe has value

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so we just need to pluck that and give it into the power of communities distribute this far and wide

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the farther it is the more good we're doing in these communities then you realize it's very

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hard to bring down from a centralized attack vector something where you have wells in ghana

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you have parks in venezuela you have these infrastructures being built worldwide good being

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distributed worldwide

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technology and

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have had unfair distributions I.e they've had icos and pre-seed and vc investors investing at very

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low prices so that their interests are not aligned with the community members and the community

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members become exit liquidity for these vc investors that is an immoral act and it gives

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government legitimacy in the regulation of these ecosystems the other thing here I wanted to touch

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on is that the other defense here is creating circular economies the more you can distribute

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the tokens the more excuses you've got to distribute the tokens to people who are proving

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that they're doing valuable things to the ecosystem the more chances you have of those

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people convincing other people near to them to be able to accept the token and then that creates a

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circular economy because instead of jimmy um asking to be paid in dollars he might turn around

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and say hey pay me in this token pay me in Hive I'll accept it right as long as it has a perceived

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value it can start to create a circular economy so we have a great example of this in um mcsam's

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um

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projects where he explained the tokens to a lot of people building the boreholes and they start

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some of them wanted payment in local currencies who had to cash out to local currencies to pay

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them but some of them were like hey no pay me partly in Hive pay me pay me partly in this token

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and once that starts to happen you start to form the foundation for a circular economy

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and once you have circular economies I mean that's it that you're recycling the tokens around

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for different people trading different things trading for different things with it between

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each other and because you can have

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a no KYC continuous distribution mechanism and then you start to create the circular economies

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it is impossible to stop it becomes impossible to shut down and stop you can't make it illegal at

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that point I mean you can but it becomes it's a useless it's a useless act we've seen people use

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salt in cuba to use cell phone minutes to trade because the currency has become so crap

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imagine a fearless instant clearing interest yielding

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stable coin and you also have Hive where you have endless opportunity

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to be able to have Resource Credits and posts and get into the network and ecosystem and raise the

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reputation that far exceeds anything else out there especially phone credits so that's

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incredibly easy to create a circular economy when you attach that kind of efficiency with

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reputation and social media

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it's like gasoline on dry hay

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circular economies are incredibly easy to do in countries that aren't as established with banking

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systems once they start to have circular economies it leaks over so let's say there's a section here

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we've done direct 50 attack we've done indirect slow accumulation attacks the next section is how

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to defend against attacks right so what's the first thing that happens

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when the community realizes that it's being attacked

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what's the first thing that happens what does it do it goes into attack mode goes into attack mode

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it's like a it's like a body rejecting it's like an immune it's an immune it's like an immune response

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so it goes out to as many places as possible to get hold of as many possible voting tokens as

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possible so when it's in peace time you might get 30 percent of the of the supply of the token voting

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but when the community realizes it's being attacked

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you might get another 10 to 15 percent of the tokens suddenly wake up because it's like an immune response and

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everyone's like holy we've got to defend the chain against this attacker so you might well get scenarios

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where you get more than 50 60 percent of the tokens voting and the attacker doesn't know what this threshold is

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going to be this is the thing the attacker will do most of these calculations based off the peace time

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non-immune response but when the immune response kicks in it's often going to affect

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enough to push the attacker out completely you know you you need some external help like justin

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sun had with the exchanges to get the exchange accounts to vote against the interests of the

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community to beat that immune response which is something he got very lucky with in the attack

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with this team that's why we're relying on centralized infrastructure for liquidities very

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bad when you have any kind of coin voting because they can trap the access of getting new voting

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rights basically if we had a lp on steam for bitcoin and steam in a decentralized way

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that actually had a lot of steam in it then we might have actually won that war

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it's incredibly important to be able to have access to Hive so many people are concerned with

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getting out of Hive in a decentralized ky c less way but also getting into Hive in an attack vector

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you want access to Hive and you don't want to rely on centralization

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centralized actors who can be corrupted yeah so the next thing here is a point about you that

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we realized where you cannot buy a community so in the takeover world in the VC takeover world

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the cutthroat Venture Capital acquisition world right you can acquire centralized systems because

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you only need to deal with one or two entities and you can convince them or do a deal with them

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that they find favorable that they can then sell out the previous history of what they've built to

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pass the ownership of that over to the the acquirer right in a community I've seen communities that

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agree to go against their own best interests in terms of being taken over and then submitting to

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some external force but it's generally very rare if you try to buy a community the general response

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from the community

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will be just simply you we are not interested we're you know because there's always going to

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be a rebellious element to each community and that rebellious element in a takeover has a lot of sway

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a lot of power especially when it's a moral if it's a if it's an immoral takeover and it's very

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clear to everyone in the community that the person doing the takeover isn't acting in the best interest

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of the community itself there's almost no way that any price of money could buy that community

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and that's an

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really important observation here because the point being you cannot buy a community

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so you can't buy enough steak in a community and then vote against its interest to do a takeover

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and then have that community then submit to you voluntarily when they've always got the option to

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fork they will always almost always in every circumstance choose to fork away from you then

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accept your centralized control of their ecosystem of their once power you know once repeated ecosystem

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there comes a distribution of power

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where you have to compromise to get a better good than not compromising if that makes sense so

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when you get in that environment if one person is getting a better deal than everyone else people

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reject that most people are born in the King peasant sort of world so they just accept it

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but the ones that have had tasted freedom it's much harder to take it from them

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And Hive has tasted freedom.

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So if you try to rise up and say, I'm going to have all the benefits and you're not, we reject that.

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Yep.

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And that's been demonstrated by the Steam Hive takeover as well.

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The community is layer zero.

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So this is the other realization that no matter how rich and wealthy the whales are in the ecosystem, their wealth is ultimately derived from the value of the token, which is ultimately derived from the utility.

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And the censorship resistance, the utility part of that is people using dApps and dApps accumulating the token so that they can have access to the resource system so they can continue to provide their users with free feel experiences.

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To the point where the dApps will not sell their tokens at any cost, because if they sell their tokens, they will stop being able to operate their dApps.

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And so what this means is that it's ultimately the community that provide a vast amount of value to the token.

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Then, as we mentioned,

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before, the community acts as the immune response to these 51% attacks.

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And so ultimately, the realization is that the community is layer zero.

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You've got layer one, which is the data availability layer that we discussed before, layer two, which is the dApps, the services, the smart contracts.

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But everyone forgets to mention layer zero.

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Why does everyone forget to mention layer zero?

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Because in proof of stake chains and proof of work chains, it's irrelevant.

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They don't exist.

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They don't exist.

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They don't need to worry about those guys.

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Layer zero is a fat guy with a lot of money.

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Layer zero isn't a peasant on these chains, but on a genuinely well-distributed dPOS chain, the layer zero are the peasant community members, and they ultimately have the final say over the value of the token because they are the utility.

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The peasants are the utility, the community, the people who are voluntarily there, the people who think freedom of speech matters.

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But not only that, the people who are incentivized by not having some asshole take control and be able to tell them what to do, there's polarity.

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Not everyone thinks that's a good idea and people are willing to fight for it.

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And we know that because it was a bear market.

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This is a crypto coin.

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People could have said, hey, Justin, son, pump my bags like he promised.

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But we rejected it.

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It wasn't just me and Matt.

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It was many.

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It was the majority.

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It shows you out there that not everyone thinks the same.

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There is a variety of people out there.

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There is a variety of people out there.

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There is a variety of people out there.

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There is a variety of people out there that will reject getting money on by giving up their freedoms because they realize once you give up the freedom, the money is worthless.

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The other thing to note here is when the fork attack happened and the community forked, the fork was done in secret away from Justin's son.

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So steam was taken over and feeling like they eventually won the war because they bought the exchanges in.

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But what was happening behind the scenes is the community was forking in secret.

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But what was happening behind the scenes is the community was forking in secret.

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The fork is.

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It's incredibly important for the fork to be a surprise to the attacker because the attacker needs to believe that the community is negotiating with it constantly to try and win back the original brand from the original chain.

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The fork is incredibly important for the fork to be a surprise to the attacker because the attacker needs to believe that the community is negotiating with it constantly to try and win back the original brands from the original chain.

343
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The fork is incredibly important for the fork to be a surprise to the attacker because the attacker needs to believe that the community is negotiating with it constantly to try and win back the original brand from the original chain.

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The fork is incredibly important for the fork to be a surprise to the attacker because the attacker needs to believe that the community is negotiating with it constantly to try and win back the original brands from the original chain.

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original chain and if that attack fail if that defense fails and they lose the brand name

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there needs to be a fork that has been able to be built and ready to release

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in a time such that the work that's done by the remaining community members who are trying to

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hold the original brand hold it for long enough that the fork can be a successful release and

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then once if the um the attacker succeeds to take over the original chain and take the brand

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then the community members who are trying to delay that and delay that negotiate have to

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all together at the same time with the fork withdraw and start the fork operation at the

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same time such that it's a shock to the original attacker such that the fork is a winner takes all

353
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scenario as the chances of that happening are the most possible yeah if you're a coin voting network

354
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what you would

355
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one as an attacker is to be able to neutralize the accounts before they can sell

356
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it's not it's much more difficult with a non-premine because with the premine you can buy

357
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controlling stake without moving the price on the open market so you don't enrich the community

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but during a money attack you're going to have natural selling but even then you would want to

359
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fool them long enough to where you wouldn't have the whales cashing out also it becomes the game of

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horde or from a money attack you're going to have a natural selling

361
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from game of thrones holding up the door basically you want to defend the network long

362
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enough for people to sell enough to make it the the money attack beneficial to the community

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the only the only way I've been money attack is beneficial to the community is if you actually

364
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were able to benefit from it and cash out if the net if the attacker is able to dominate the network

365
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before you cash out and then take your funds it becomes worthless so these are things you have to

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keep in mind but naturally if you have the price going a hundred dollars you're going to have to

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keep in mind but naturally if you have the price going a hundred a thousand x I mean when you talk

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about 51 of this voting supply of a currency of a coin that's incredibly difficult to do you're you

369
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know you not only have to buy but you have to hold what you buy and if you're not buying it instantly

370
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you're playing a red queen game against inflation so you have to keep buying more pumping the price

371
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and not selling and keep so you're sustaining the pump higher when the price is higher it's

372
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free marketing people so it's this yes you got to keep up with the immune response

373
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yeah it's a positive feedback loop to the community a negative food loop to the attacker

374
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that's all you can really ask for yeah so forking holds the rich to account so as we've

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talked a lot about in this uh chapter so far the ability for the working class to say okay we're

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off we're going to a new chain and the ability for the community to be able to copy the original chain

377
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and easily make a new version of it within a week or two

378
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everything runs the same except that the original attacker's account or accounts are no longer

379
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have no have no balances on the new fork allows the the working class to hold the rich to account

380
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and again we touched on this before a little bit but what it means is if if you're a whale on these

381
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on these ecosystems the ultimate result is that as well you're looking at and going

382
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yeah I I need to make sure that I'm investing in the community and I'm investing in the community

383
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or at least I I have a perception that I'm neutral right if you if you start to have a

384
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perception created about you in a community that you are not benevolent or that you are actually

385
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bad for a community there is a chance that they will fork to a new chain and not take

386
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take your tokens over so it forces the rich to think about how they treat the community in a

387
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different way to what the current capitalist system does yeah you'll notice a lot of whales

388
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on Hive don't want to be the number one top whale

389
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it becomes an attack vector to themselves if you're an actual investor if you're a looking to

390
00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:49,060
improve on your roi the last thing you want to do is become the dictator of a blockchain the one

391
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taking the arrows and then eventually having the community you're investing in reject you like

392
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you're a poison and then alienate you and potentially lose your funds so last thing you

393
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:05,700
want to do is keep buying to where it's just like a company you don't go into a company saying I'm

394
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going to buy enough shares to where I'm the ceo

395
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basically like I'm the one calling the shots a lot of people don't want that power and a

396
00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:17,980
decentralized ecosystem that is seen as an attack so not only do people naturally don't want that

397
00:35:17,980 --> 00:35:23,740
power unless it's something they're specifically wanting to do it's seen as an attack so now it's

398
00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:34,220
like it makes zero sense for a clean actor someone who's in it to actually be a positive influence

399
00:35:34,220 --> 00:35:37,180
to try to get enough to dominate the network it becomes an oxymoron

400
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at that point and it destroys the value proposition

401
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:47,520
yeah so we've talked we've touched previously on reputation uh a little bit and we're going to have

402
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,760
a whole I think we previous to this we'll have a whole section regards to reputation but we can

403
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,760
just touch on you know dan mentioned reputation building and trust so you you're ultimately going

404
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,500
to the people that built reputation over time they're going to be more credible in the new fork

405
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:07,020
so you can trust that and you've got reputation damage so if you act against the best wishes of

406
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:11,260
the best and you're enjoying the takeover you can damage your reputation and the reputations are

407
00:36:11,260 --> 00:36:16,700
often more worth a lot more than the currency in their accounts by the way I think we we shouldn't

408
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:19,660
go into too much detail in this section in regards to that though because we'll have a separate

409
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section on reputation but one of the things that I thought was cool here regards to this was um NFTs

410
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:36,860
for reputation building so NFTs reputation building are pretty cool because let's say uh you help test

411
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:43,660
and that app becomes successful and your actions are on the chain you could get dropped NFTs for

412
00:36:43,660 --> 00:36:47,660
doing a certain number of actions we've seen many many um examples of this already in the ethereum

413
00:36:47,660 --> 00:36:52,540
community and this is going to can it's going to be a continuing trend it's like if you contribute

414
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:58,060
to an ecosystem or an app or a service early on when it's nothing but you're actually testing it

415
00:36:58,060 --> 00:37:01,580
and you make it into what it becomes because you provide value valuable feedback during the test

416
00:37:02,940 --> 00:37:07,340
then a certain point I think it's going to become standard practice where you'll start receiving an

417
00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:13,500
NFTs for the efforts that you've done as or you'll as long as you receive them autonomously from the

418
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:17,100
network and the network votes for a way to distribute those nsts to people who created

419
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:22,140
value in the earlier periods of the testing phases in the early periods of the operation phase of

420
00:37:22,140 --> 00:37:31,020
these services blockchains dapps or ecosystems what you're going to end up with is there's like

421
00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:36,540
on-chain reputation which is tangible but it's also a little bit manipulatable because you can

422
00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:36,780
vote

423
00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:43,740
unfairly you've got intangible reputation which is kind of like what you have in society where

424
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:48,780
you have a friend group and people within that group are more trustable less trustable because

425
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:52,860
it's not written down but everyone kind of knows you know that's the same on blockchains as well

426
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:59,340
there's an intangible unwritten reputation value there but then there's also going to be people

427
00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:02,940
that have been tangibly rewarded for their reputation because they've done things

428
00:38:04,380 --> 00:38:07,180
and like I was mentioning before things like early

429
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:13,180
early contributions or early testing they're going to have NFTs in their accounts so this

430
00:38:13,180 --> 00:38:17,660
is another way that you can identify the reputation the reputable people during these attacks

431
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:23,420
right the more of these people that move towards a specific fork you don't need to know who they

432
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:28,620
are you don't even need to know if they're their id identity they can be anonymous accounts but

433
00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:32,460
you're like oh god this guy's got like three or four NFTs from all these different apps

434
00:38:32,460 --> 00:38:36,860
and ecosystems that you got like five years ago because he was helping test and build the ecosystem

435
00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:41,260
this is a more trustable entity than just some random person popping up and saying hey

436
00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:44,620
we should go to this over here because you all for all you know that could be the attacker

437
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:51,740
and the chances are that the the attacker is not ultimately incentivized long term to do

438
00:38:51,740 --> 00:38:56,620
valuable things for the community such that the attacker earns NFTs over time I mean it's a very

439
00:38:56,620 --> 00:39:01,340
sophisticated attack if they do that but by doing that they're adding value to the ecosystem which

440
00:39:01,340 --> 00:39:06,620
makes it more difficult for them to attack the ecosystem in the future so people with NFTs are

441
00:39:07,660 --> 00:39:16,140
mostly genuine um well-meaning people and they will often accumulate around the right fork

442
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:21,980
during an attack so I think NFTs for reputation building are very important now coin voting is

443
00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:30,620
pretty cutthroat if you had three um if you had three going on at one time on a fork they'd

444
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:37,180
naturally migrate to the strongest one we've seen this with Hive and blurt you had one minority fork

445
00:39:37,340 --> 00:39:44,780
it pretty much died off price wise and liquidity wise um it's very difficult to sustain

446
00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:53,020
this is sort of a winner takes all game when it comes to this network effect because the stronger

447
00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:59,100
network effect the more valuable the coin because the only way I have censorship resistance is have

448
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:04,220
a strong network effect if you don't you really don't have any value and it's hard to have two

449
00:40:04,220 --> 00:40:07,180
strong network effects just by theory

450
00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:12,860
yeah so let's do a last couple of things here uh regards to attack vectors on what to do

451
00:40:13,820 --> 00:40:18,140
um we've got infrastructure operation so the more people operate in infrastructure

452
00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:22,700
the better the more you can incentivize the operation of that infrastructure autonomously

453
00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:27,980
by the by the network the better um I think that's fairly self-explanatory we'll go into that a

454
00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:36,620
little bit more in the section regards to off-chain infrastructure operation incentivization um voted

455
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:41,020
as community member of the month so you can have various different initiatives where people who are

456
00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:45,180
commendable people within the community uh get elected by the community as being the most

457
00:40:45,180 --> 00:40:49,100
valuable member of the month I have to give a bit of credit for dan larimer for building the

458
00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:57,100
what's the name of the uh protocol that he built um where they they do a video each month and they

459
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,580
check each other's video and then they're like they can vote for the people I forget the name

460
00:41:01,580 --> 00:41:05,260
of the protocol but that's an interesting way where you can basically build reputation by

461
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:06,300
community interactions

462
00:41:07,180 --> 00:41:11,820
um we'll move circular economies up we've touched on that already

463
00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:15,740
and then the last one is it's hard to attack a system that's helping people

464
00:41:16,540 --> 00:41:22,300
so this is evident in projects where in countries where the government's failed the community

465
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:28,940
and those communities have managed to attract funding from a dow within the ecosystem

466
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:36,380
and then build services that government should have built already using autonomous

467
00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:41,980
voting systems and autonomous funding systems and then provide evidence that they've built those

468
00:41:41,980 --> 00:41:47,820
ecosystems and bring more people in in that way it's very hard for you to then as a government

469
00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:55,580
say we're shutting this chain down when the next like five villages rely on the water wells that

470
00:41:55,580 --> 00:42:01,340
that have been built by that protocol it makes you look like a pretty bitter dictator and that's

471
00:42:01,340 --> 00:42:06,220
that once that reaches a certain critical mass it's incredibly difficult to justify shutting that down

472
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:12,620
yeah it's awesome I mean government wins by propaganda it's hard to have propaganda when

473
00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:19,100
you see wells helping people and all the good it's helping in various countries

474
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:26,060
there's no we understand that every time you have some kind of power like a charity there's

475
00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,540
power and people distribute the funds there's corruption that's why it seems like people donate

476
00:42:30,540 --> 00:42:35,580
millions but nothing really happens it's like why are these like where's all the money going

477
00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:39,500
to go are they doing a lot of actually it's the middleman the middleman take the call when you

478
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:44,380
see the transactions on the chain when you are giving the transactions to people who

479
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:48,220
have reputation that are built everything is apparent you can share the stories on

480
00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:52,940
chain they can't be erased or tampered with that they are tampered with you can see on

481
00:42:52,940 --> 00:42:59,900
chain that they've been edited um it's clearly a better system and

482
00:43:01,580 --> 00:43:04,540
we've already reached critical mass as far as I'm concerned

483
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:09,880
time as this thing starts to grow and grow and grow you get nine wells you get 10 wells you

484
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:17,560
start to grow parks in Cuba you start to grow parks and various other places um you can't make

485
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,260
that illegal if you try sure you can do it in certain jurisdictions but Ghana sure as hell is

486
00:43:23,260 --> 00:43:26,800
not going to make high of it legal and Venezuela sure as hell not going to make high of it legal

487
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,540
it makes them look good it makes the governments look good if they support it who cares if it's

488
00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:35,440
illegal in the United States at the end of the day especially if you don't rely on centralized

489
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:43,900
exchanges you start to realize that you don't need to look at Hive as a liquidity layer it

490
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:50,500
doesn't need to have all of this massive buying and selling and market makers it has value because

491
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:57,820
people hold it because they need it it holds value because of the good it is doing and the power it

492
00:43:57,820 --> 00:44:00,760
yields and it holds value because you can send

493
00:44:01,540 --> 00:44:08,500
instantly free transactions that are censorship resistant that are immutable that can't be shut

494
00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:13,900
down it's better than the lightning by magnitudes it's a different sport it's a different caliber

495
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:19,000
we're not even talking about the same thing there's nothing that could compare to it if you

496
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:28,720
were to build another Hive it would only make both weaker so there's no need for two um yep

497
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:31,360
all right let's close the attack

498
00:44:31,540 --> 00:44:32,020
this here

Book - Securing Digital Rights for Communities | Chapter 13. Attack Vectors and What to Do

Chapter 13. Attack Vectors and What to Do

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