trying to get our arms around today in this conversation? Well, look, again, we're talking about phase one Putinism. So now we're on a different model. So, but it's a very important one to understand because it's one that's been imitated by a lot of people by Viktor Orban in Hungary, by Vucic in Serbia, by Erdogan in Turkey. And when we think about nightmare scenarios of the US, which I think is still nightmare scenarios, but there's the scenarios, we're talking about Putin phase one. And Putin phase one is something that was nicknamed managed democracy, which is still the veneer of democracy, but actually underneath it's becoming a dictatorship. Now it's just an open dictatorship. Again, aesthetics, the aesthetics of democracy. It's interesting. Again, I just want to point this out, aesthetics plays a really powerful role, I think in your book and in this conversation. And I think it says actually very interesting. I think when we look at politics, we always lead towards sort of a lot (18/57)
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