The Great Debate on Value and the Distribution of Rewards

in LeoFinance3 years ago

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One thing that has plagued the world for a Millenia is the debate on value and who should be rewarded for what and are those rewards justified?

I was sitting on the Grape discord earlier today whilst they were having a hugely heated discussion on the value of their new coin. Who should be rewarded for their effort on it, and in what ways we should reward these people, and who is deserving of these rewards and how?

So this is a discussion that has plagued mankind since the days when we were swapping our goats for some carrots and a slaughtered cow. It's not a new one, and it's not one that's going to be solved any time soon.

Value is a simplistic term, in that one can create value through production in some form. It could be anything. Raising and breeding a cow for selling to the public later, or simply taking care of your sick uncle so that he survives his illness. Both have inherent value. To clarify this value in the way I see it, you will earn money from this cow at a later date, and your sick uncle will be able to go back to work and earn for your family. We all coexist in a system of creating value.

But how do we now determine the rewards received for this newly created value?

If you think of a human when they are born and all the way up until adulthood in terms of value they are a net negative. Think of it realistically of what they contribute to society -- and if you are raising them right then at the beginning it is all about them. Rightly so, most of your resources as a parent will need to go into raising your children. So until they are of working age then children are a net negative to the creation of value.

Then when that same human is of working age and dependant on the skills they chose then they will go into the workforce and begin to create value of some kind, whether big or small, and rewarded for their creation of said value.

The argument is, and has always been, since the beginning of time, whether the rewards are proportional to the value that we create. Is the system that we have fair and just?

Rewards can take many forms, however the most common one is in the form of a national currency where we can use to purchase food, drink, products and services to better our lives with. Some even use that same currency to create their very own businesses with. The choice is yours.

The debate has always ravaged between those who have too much rewards (the rich), and those who have too little (the poor). The idea being that those with too much are eating up everything and those with too little are not being helped up. It's an argument, I'll state again, that's not a new one.

But it's too complex of a discussion to explain away by just saying that the rich should pay their fair share and that the poor should just work harder. To solve a problem we at first need to understand it. Understanding it also means to be able to emphasise with both sides.

I am going to argue that I am in a unique position to both have known very well off people, and on the other hand I not only have known very poor people but I have existed in this circle (and mindset) too. However, you may disagree with me and that's fine.

One thing that's ludicrous is that poor people can't just work harder to earn more money. There is such a thing called the poverty trap and I will argue that it's designed to keep people down there. After all, how would the banks survive without gratuitously profiting off the poor? They wouldn't be able to do that with people that have money because then that would mean the wealth that keeps them afloat would start to disappear. What rich person would keep money in a bank that's going to keep taking from them?

No, you take from people that have very little choice, and then you make it look like you are doing them a favour by letting them open an account in your shitty protection racket.

To create more wealth that means there needs to be more opportunity. You can't just simply work harder if there's no jobs available. I remember some old bastard telling me that he would literally pick up shit from the street if he had to when I was unemployed and that I was a drain on society. Alas, it gave him quite a shock when I told him that he should accompany me down to the job shop or show me where these shit picker jobs were so I could go and get them. People have a lot of opinions, but most of them are biased and shit. A lot of mine are too for the record, hah.

No, for true wealth to be created within the poor we need proper financial and social education. The benefits of stopping spending on addictions and saving up that money every month. The benefits of the nuclear family and how having both Dad and Mum at home increases the chances of your child's success (and your own physical and mental health wellness) twenty fold.

But then this comes at a cost. Robust social aid incentives aren't created out of thin air. People don't work for free. As an ex charity worker myself I know that you can't just hire social professionals to do a days work for free -- they have families to feed too. And our projects and the distribution of those projects, the money has to come from somewhere.

David Cameron had a vision of Big Society when he first came into UK office about us all helping each other, but in turn it was just a shady operation to skim off the top of spending. Like most of these shite social incentives by government. Poorly thought out and corners cut everywhere. We laughed because we knew that eventually our funding would all be cut to nothing and we'd be looking for another job in a few years.

But this funding to keep us all in jobs it came from somewhere and it came from rich donations. The kind of donations you don't hear about because it just attracts too much attention from the public. When you offer it up to discussion of the public it becomes a kangaroo court rather than a free exchange of ideas. I think in our team our yearly turnover was at least $2 Million.

But we earned very little back. The problem with charity work and helping the underprivileged is that it leaves so little room for turning a profit. For example you can't shout at someone struggling with anxiety to meet your hectic deadline, that's silly. You introduce them into a pressurised environment very slowly so that one day they might be able to manage it. I've found exposure therapy to be extremely effective, but again, everyone's different so you have to think on your feet at all times.

So unless more money filters downwards, and for free, then the poor are going to be continually used, abused, and neglected.

You could argue that we could all just work for free in a fair and just society, or that we could all be paid the same in an equal, fair and just society so that everyone benefits -- but this idea is even more stupid and here's why.

The idea, whilst extremely well intentioned, will play out in the most horrific ways imaginable. It took me about two weeks of paying everyone the same in my community to realise that I would eventually get fucked by a train sideways.

Whilst my discord community is no financial authority, or government institution with unimaginable clout to back up their claims, I still had a small amount of finance to distribute to my community contributors in ways that they seen fit. Everyone was equal in my discord, regardless of race, creed, gender, or sexuality. If you wanted a role with me you got paid end of. Everyone was so exited about the idea and we eventually became so pumped about starting something never done in cryptocurrency before. An equal coin. Well, it was named Brocoin but we were all equal in the eyes of my coin.

Sadly this all started to crumble at the seems when people began utilising their output and coins in different ways.

There were people that barely showed up to work for me yet expected full payment. This was fine obviously because I wasn't going to let the idea of meritocracy get in the way. That was until of course, the other people that were carrying the entire discord on their shoulders began complaining that they were doing so yet receiving the same as the ones that barely lifted a finger.

Not only that but some spent what they had as soon as they got it and complained that they never had enough, and some saved every penny of it hoping that we'd be huge one day. Hat's off to you @burlarj.

So equality was only a visualisation in my mind. When it was applied to the world though, the winds of diversity of thought took it into wildly different directions. I realised that we weren't equal at all, and we never will be.

The only way I could apply any form of equality was to force it on my users. And that's against my ethics and morals.

We could also make the argument for a co-operative society. One that works together with each other for the common good and better goals. Most famously portrayed on Star Trek. I think the Federation was a sort of co-operative society. Where money wasn't a thing but everyone tried to work together for the betterment of the human race.

But in a co-operative society what do you do about those radical "other" thinkers? And in that society any sort of thought that strays from the social and financial norms would be considered radical. Think of it realistically. Imagine if someone started saying, "I don't like the way this society functions. I hate it. It sucks."

Imagine the poison that would inflict on other people that freely co-operate? And the disturbance to the social cohesion within the group?

You would have to oust them from society, or better yet, take them out of their homes in the middle of the night and execute them. Then tell their families that they have fled to the west -- please tell me you get this reference lol.

In my mind, and from what I have seen in practise is that any form of equality imparted on large groups of people will have to be done so brutally and without care or empathy.

"Let's take from the rich!! They have enough money."

I actually used to think this way a while back. Part of me used to think that taking from people that have and giving it to people that have not is the way to go. Like Robin Hood stealing from the Sheriff of Nottingham. Stealing from the rich to give to the deserving poor.

But then once I had accumulated a fair amount of money myself I began seeing the argument from the other side.

For as long as I could remember I haven't been a high earner. Happy to take my paycheque and go home and scream at the big man because I didn't make enough. It just didn't seem right. So I blamed people with money.

But what a lot of people don't actually understand is that wealth accumulation takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Sometimes you can be going at it for years before you hit the sweet spots. Sometimes you can be going at it forever.

The blood, sweat, and tears that I have been through to get to where I am today is beyond imaginable. I've had to sacrifice almost all of my addictions, nights out with my friends, and a good portion of my free time. I would like to really be playing Mass effect 2 tonight but here I am writing to you guys, a sucker for punishment I am sometimes.

The rich ride isn't an easy one, and unless it's something you've always wanted to do then I'd advise against it. The richer the people that I meet (and I meet a lot in crypto) generally, the smarter and quicker on their feet they are. People don't accumulate wealth through luck and clumsiness. People accumulate wealth through razor sharp intelligence.

But that goes against every grain of what I have been taught as a child and a young adult. In fact it was hard writing that. But the more people with abundant wealth I meet, the quicker and sharper they seem to be.

I guess we run with that falsehood that it's easy to be rich so that we can dream of being rich one day but at the same time fill a necessary gap that the world can function.

Without the working class, the world would cease to operate. Those bins need emptied, and those toilets definitely need cleaned for sure.

And now that I have a semi-decent wealth pot I am less inclined to give it away needlessly. Why should I give away something that I've worked really excruciatingly hard for and could have a far better quality life if I opted out of the train?

What makes you so important?

What gives you more inherent value than my wealth?

Why should I give to you?

Would you be just as happy to give away your money like me? Or is it just me that should because I have more? How is that fair to me?

Of course you're preaching to the choir here because I understand the need for abundant social provisions and I'm always donating away something here or there, but that doesn't make those questions any less relevant. The question you should be asking yourself this is:

If you don't think you should be giving away your money, then how should I be required to give away mine?

The answer is an easy one though. The harder that you tax rich people then the quicker they leave for other areas where they aren't so heavy handed. You just need look at California and their great exodus. It's got so bad there that they are looking at trying to tax ex-residents.

So then this brings us full circle to the same question -- value, rewards, and the fairness of it all.

Well, I can guarantee you there will never be a truly completely fair society. For someone to win, there will always, always be someone that loses - whether you like that idea or not. When you buy Bitcoin on an exchange and make 10000% -- someone still had to sell you their bitcoin. Therefor they lose.

There is no equality. Only winners and losers.

But to give us a fair and just society then there needs to be a fairly robust safety net on the bottom, but also a fairly just system at the top.

Right now corporations are escaping with paying no taxes -- look at Starbucks in the UK for example. Because their main office is in Ireland then their tax gets waivered. Truly astonishing, and fucked up. They say Capitalism is flawed, and it is.

In any truly free Capitalistic society then it creates monopolies. The best idea wins and eats out the rest -- creating a small group of monopolies over us all. Take Facebook and Twitter for example. Twitter banned @splinterlands with no recourse to those actions purely because they were competing in the same space as them.

Capitalism needs at least some breaks on it to allow for competition.

But that being said I do wonder if the big three have realised the end of their business cycle and are desperately trying to grasp at their monopolies before they come crashing down underneath us. Watch this space.

So we've realised that both the extremes are flawed in every way. Maybe now it's time to meet in the middle? Perhaps?

I dunno. Some random thoughts for today.

Peace :)

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Yeah, I am not sure there is an easy balance between the two. You are are always going to find some hard pros and cons on both sides. I do agree that on average it is probably a net negative to raise a human being. Some will buck the trend, but the average will be negative.

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Haha, from the title, I thought it was going to be another rant about post rewards or something like that but, I to my pleasant surprise it is not, lol. Great post and one I fully agree with. There is a fine balancing act for sure that we all have to play. Wealth is also all in the eyes of the person. You can be poor but have wealth in other areas, such as health and family, you don’t have to be rich to be healthy and happy and or have a strong and healthy family unit. And in allot of cases, the rich are extremely unhealthy due to their extreme lifestyles. Fat and happy doesn’t mean healthy… Lol. Or they have families that despise them unless they are getting their share… Seen this too many times… So to me, it’s all in perspective. The problem is, society tells us to look at it in a certain light so that we all have the same view on what wealth is supposed to be and chasing after the same shit. Hell, I am the happiest I have ever been living the #vanlife, having the minimal things I have and stacking my sats while trying to build my way in this world, the way I want to live it. Not the way they want me to live it.

Anyway, sorry for the long comment, kinda goes with the long post ;)

Ah, was just talking about value as in resources. I could do a whole new large post on intrinsic value lol

Education on economics, mindsets of abundance and less shit that's addictive being available on every corner would go a long way. The issue is that those things don't benefit the current system... keep them dumb, dependant and addicted... that is the road to generational wealth increasing over generations. It is a tough nut to crack... it's easy to see the problems, solving them...


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Yep. Easy for me to write about them. Actually trying to solve them though? Fuck that lol. Need someone braver than me.

Education on economics, mindsets of abundance and less shit that's addictive being available on every corner would go a long way.

100%

hmmm... what a interesting array of thoughts... I think value is never measured fairly, equitably too...

Kids, pets... I have two cats I spend well for their upkeep no moneratary value for it, other than some Caturday posts of mine that have earned pretty well at times...like one post got 54$...

However, wheather I get any monetary value out of my cats, I still will spend for their upkeep because they are very valuable. They give me happiness and contentment that improves my life for instance.

However, I am not those smart people who can earn money smartly, elagantly, I actually always been you know cheated out. Not paid enough for my education and all the money my parents spent for me - schooling and higher education never paid off...does it hurt.

Yes it does. Problem is me, but this is not about me, although it makes society feel money is wasted on a underserving person, a much more denied soul would have benifited from the education I got.

But I think that thought is wrong. There is no gaurentee just through education, putting on the best bests anyone would be a hit and being a hit has several definitions as well.

Anyway... someone also commented that you know I will never grow rich by myself because I don't know or too lazy to find out how to deal in crypto with dealing with centralised exchanges that do KYC...without knowing how to trade stuff without paying taxes...

and I feel that even if I had the money which people like you did not, the world has been a difficult space for me to thrive and survive. Maybe I was afflicted with too much fear and socieal anciety in school that I could not do well and that impacted me as a adult...maybe its the circumtances, so maybe I am not such a net negative...ha, ha, ha.

So, in my experience value is never fair...parents will pamper kids if they are rich and spoil them...and currency is not the ultimate value...its only there for a better quality life and hapiness and if you have enough of it then its ok to donate it to someone needy but has potentential or someone who is doing good work.

Anyway... good day.

I really bloody wish these capilists and political class go slim with the money and use it to create actual value. Improve education, health system, infrastruture, environment so that life is ok for the working class and they don't get exploited.

They may not grow rich, but have a decent quality of life, that is a right of everybody. ANyway.

Interesting thoughts!!

A bit about my life - as a young boy I grew up in one of the poorest areas in my county. I mean in comparison to the UK lifestyle I grew up on the real lower scale. At 14 I found drugs and drink, and by 19 I was a heavy drinker and drug user. At 21 I ended up in a psychiatric facility, and later a secure psychiatric facility.. pretty much dribbling all over myself. I was diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia.. so Anxiety to the point of delusional.

But I got myself some help in the end. Learned a bit about myself, took myself through education, worked hard, and here we are. Your friend is right, if you don't sit down with rich people and learn from them then you aren't going to be rich -- but then that may not be your goals, which I applaud that.

I think you've got capitalism wrong. If we were living in Capitalism then everything would have been crushed back in 2008. No, the government bailed out its bankers and made the public pay, which was the same over around the world. So what you have in actual fact is crony capitalism where the rich protect the rich and their mates -- it's sort of like socialism for the rich.

Anyway, I really agree with you here:

I really bloody wish these capilists and political class go slim with the money and use it to create actual value. Improve education, health system, infrastruture, environment so that life is ok for the working class and they don't get exploited.

If we actually improved these qualities then our society would be abundantly rich, if not financially then at least in the heart and mind -- and I've always found that if you are rich in the heart and mind then the financial part comes easy. But, that would be too damn easy!

Generally, I just wish the rich would pay their taxes. That is all. We've went from a fairly sound system to one that protects the rich.

Wow... Your background is similar to James Bowel's whose fan I am, because he wrote books on his adventures with cat Bob that changed his life and made him financially cool!! And his story happened in London.

The point I want to make is empasis is on money but money does not give you happiness. We are paronoid about money so much so, that in my society even to marry parents look for a well earning person, point is that's not the only reason to marry.

There is more...adventures, experiences, travel, food, good times that money all cannot provide or provide. And I feel that we can earn good money if we stratergise properly, then work hard on something your passionate about and I know that won't be easy because atleast I am not the street smart kind.

I am worried about climate change now, so we need lots of money to buy oxygen just to survive and food prices are high due to inflation awhich is shooting up.

Do you realise that earning money is not enough now...you have to invest it so that it would grow to be enough to cover the inflation costs. This part is hard, though not that much for people like me who are into assets like crypto which has potential to explode in price and value in future.

That's where I can get expotential money growth although I know I have to trade it well ...take profits, buy the lows but still I have good oppurtunity to be in prosperity.

However...challenges are there...the bloody unreasonable taxes...and I don't think its justified to pay taxes on these profits if I earn them, because the India Government will charge unresonably.

So, I feel we are trapped by this system and I want to break free from it and that's why crypto and blockchain allured me in...so I can own my money instead of paying to the Govt. that won't use it to better stuff but only to benifit themselves and the rich folks...

Anyway...its a adventure right... how we overcame difficulties and earned the money. You must be feeling great!!

Please enjoy the wealth you created...and only if you feel like , then donate some to something worthy(:

Remember to enjoy the wealth by doing things that make you happy now...not just save up and not use it. Anyway.

Reading the first half of the post I thought that I would debate, but the second made it very easy to agree :)

Capitalism is not perfect system for society, but it proved to be the most efficient one. And this thriving of science and technology maybe will bring us even easier life. Even if we are not at the top.

Right now neither are perfect :) Imo. Would like to see a meet in the middle. Where the rich pay more.

You're so unfiltered and you always speak the truth. This is why I've always liked your posts since Steemit days!

To create more wealth that means there needs to be more opportunity.

I have another pov tothis, even tho there are opportunities for wealth or even jobs, some people are just not capable (skill-wise, long-term thinking/handling finances, etc). I've seen this. For ex, there are so many construction jobs offered by the wealthy people / real estate companies and so many people raising their hands to do construction work. Guess what, just because they can pick a nail and a hammer does not mean they can do the job. So yeah, employers end up not getting the job properly done. And ended up employing people from other locations (who had opportunities for education, are capable and can get the job done).

I don't really know where do we start. Maybe education first? Total environment and culture overhaul (these things do affect people's mindset) I'm not talking about getting a degree or something. People just have to have some awareness or right mindset on things. I've been on both sides -having a business and working for others, I have wealthy and poor friends. I admit that there were times when I've leaned way to just one side... and then I reminded myself of what's like to be in someone else's reality just to maintain that balance.

I think in the end people are people, and we do have our own flaws and are all capable of evil.

Pretty much what I was trying to reflect in my post. A balance. Right now it's crazy. I'd like to see more community spirit imo. From both rich and poor people.

A thought-provoking post Admiral. I like it! 👍🙂

As you say, you are asking age-old questions. Funny thing is, somehow the age-old answers never "stick." We seem perpetually doomed to "rinse and repeat." Generally, with some nonsense like "Well ... They just didn't do it right. We will do it right!" Sure thing ...

On this ...

"Well, I can guarantee you there will never be a truly completely fair society. For someone to win, there will always, always be someone that loses - whether you like that idea or not."

... I agree with the first point. I most definitely do not agree with the second.

The foundation of good business is creating a "win-win" value proposition for both parties. It can be done. It has been done. It always should be done. I would suggest to you truly free markets are an essential way of addressing those who choose to engage in "I WIN - You lose" propositions. I could write a post in support of these assertions, but ...

I'm busy ... 😉

I hope all is well with you and yours Ray! 👍 Until "next time," off into my day ...

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..but then out of your win-win agreement (which I try and make a lot of those myself lol) there is always going to be someone elsewhere that loses. Could be just as simple as the people that missed out because the other person made a deal with you instead of them, or as complex as the Somalian pirates because the oil digging has wrecked their countryside.

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Thank you!! :)

Wow, am deeply honoured for the mention..Thanks Mr.ray!..

To those who believed you owe them a dime or have that feeling of entitlement, I think they really need to work on themselves..

Life is not balanced and it can never be, equality is out of it...

Hey Burl!

Veni, Vidi, Veci.

I came, I saw, I conquered

At least those new BRO's you own are now worth an incredible amount more :)

lol yup yup and i believed they will be worth more in the future.. gracias

wow, that was really a great post , its sure took time to read indeed.😉

mankind since the days when we were swapping our goats for some carrots and a slaughtered cow.

sure the time has changed a lot but deep down all the things work the same as they were in the old times. There are sure things that we believe that is not good or bad for us or others.
no matter how the time will be but remember not all the time remains the same.

we can change if we really need like you said The blood, sweat, and tears.
and blur sir is indeed a great guy. He is helpful.

thanks

Much appreciated Mr Bhattg! Thank you so much for the curation :)

pleasure is all mine Mr ray.

!ENGAGE 10

!giphy welcome

Lol. You must be making solid points because I don’t even feel like disagreeing with you anymore.

I see the mindset you were referring to in everyone around me. They’re just waiting for the next institution to pick them up and carry them from where the last one dropped them.

They don’t care that they’re prisoners in their own lives, enslaved by debt and obligation. They sure love to bitch about it (or anything else for that matter), though.

Even something as simple as opening a Coinbase account for the $5 worth of BTC is too much effort for everyone I know, even faced with seeing its growth over the last decade.

I talked my s/o into investing in a few Splinterlands assets, some of which I delegated to myself, in part for compensation for the hassle of trying to drag her kicking and screaming into the future, and even though I’ve been over it time and time again, she’ll never figure out how to reclaim or sell them if I’m not around to do it for her.

I swear to Christ and Lucifer alike if I happened across someone who “gets it” I’d pack everything I own up in the truck and skip town as fast as the son of a bitch would roll. But I digress...

I think I said all that to say maybe I’ve just been trying to define equality from the wrong perspective. We’re all equally entitled to be just as poor and bitchy as we like. It’s just too much easier than sacrifice, discipline, and effort.

Fuck ‘em. I guess they can keep going hungry for everything they’re too lazy to go get. I’m tired of trying right now and don’t know why I should even bother. I’ll find better people to associate with higher up, anyway.

Haha. At the end end of the day it's a double edged sword. It is a human problem. We are all humans. And we will take what we can get! People see it in divides -- rich/poor, lazy/sharp, balck/white, but in reality we're all just human trying to make the best out of what we have.

Lol. Finally something I can disagree with!
My point was they aren’t trying at all. They’re just waiting for something to drop in their lap and for someone then to come unpack and handle it for them.

I agree with that too!

It is an intresting point and whole i understand the process of.being semi wealthy and not wanting to just give it willing without due thought. The playing fields do need fair ground so we all have an open chance to success and mot punish people who cannot or unable to help themselves.

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Yup it's a fine balance that must be struck and one that keeps gaining and losing ground over the centuries.

Have some !LUV

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