In a few days keyholders of VP (@blocktrades is dealing with the technical implementation) will implement the multisig for VP which means that it will require 3/3 vote for decisions being made for funding.
That means, me, @crimsonclad and @guiltyparties will all 3 have to agree on funding expenditure. As it stands now, if nothing changes, thats the plan.
What Im going to be saying below is not something I am claiming that GP or Crim agree or disagree with. I will not pretend to speak for them, nor are they beholden to follow my idea of what VP should be doing. They will have their own vote and their approach to things.
I just want to be transparent on how I will personally be approaching things.
Lordbutterfly:
What ill be doing moving forward is try and establish an actual strategy for VP spending thats conversion based. So far, in my opinion, VP was mostly reactionary which means that people would come up to VP, make a proposal and it would generally be approved if there were no serious problems with the proposal makers or the idea.
What I want to do is pinpoint what we actually want happen for Hive. Be proactive in finding opportunities. What the goals and actionable steps to achieving those goals are.
Is it users? What kind of users and in what medium? Who are we targeting? Where are they based? Crypto speculators on CMC? Followers on X? Onboarding VZ users via irl events? Are we onboarding into communities? How do we measure that? By account creation? By activity over time? How much are we paying? Whats the return on investment? All of this needs to be established.
Dapps, Devs? Whats the path to conversion? Are we just showing up to workshops and hoping for the best? Do we have a structured approach? Which kind of dev? Which dapp? You find them, what do you do? Whats the ultimate goal? Building on Hive? How are you taking the dev from the point of pitching Hive to having them deploy an app? If we dont know what the actual actionable path is to achieve the conversion its a waste of time even attempting it. Ive seen this many times. It just creates an illusion of value. Sure, you can fail, but you need to know how to even potentially achieve this in practice.
Investors. Pure focus on selling Hive and HBD. Very simple work. Incredibly hard to deliver. Thats why most are avoiding it in my opinion. The ease of making a Hive account at an event irl has made most Hivers generally satisfied with a singular approach. It gives them an easy, feel good dopamine injection. And theyre not to blame. They see their effort, which is very admirable as theyre putting up their free time, lead to "something" but they generally dont observe cost to conversion ratio or long term value. That should be on SOMEONE to track. If a conference onboards 10-20 users out of which 1 stays long terms, does that justify the cost? No. If it converts into potential partnerships or investment, does that? Yes. But considering that this is very hard to do, you cant observe it on a single conference basis but over time. If over time we dont get these valuable conversions, a pivot in expenditure needs to happen.
People generally like to do cool things:
For example: Boreholes are cool, its cool giving people water. Charity is nice. But what is the goal that benefits Hive? Charity inherently doesnt deliver anything on its own. Can you onboard those you give water to? No, not really. Can it lead to more investment? Not really with whats being done with them. So the result of building boreholes doesnt justify effort or expenditure. We can make up some imaginary scenarios to justify it far into the future, but realistically you cant measure any of that and the expenditure is continual.
VZ? Africa? Does spending money in VZ lead to anything. Best case scenario it onboards a few people with no excess income that are brought in that in general leads to more extraction. Whats the value of a VZ user over a US based user? Or a EU user? All of this needs to be weighed. Oh its not nice boiling down people to numbers and attributes? Well that's tough but it needs doing.
Is the potential monetary value for Hive of a user earning 100k USD per year in US, that is searching for investment opportunity in trad markets the same as the value of someone with a 300 USD monthly salary.
This has nothing to do with their value as a person but we cannot be in a business of measuring niceness and the contents of peoples hearts.
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How big of an obstacle is our onboarding UX? How can we force dapps to fix it? Marketing doesnt exist in a vacuum, its subject to many other factors on Hive for it to succeed.
Whats the maximum potential return for each proposal funding and how does the proposal maker intend to achieve that.
Theres been 1 proposal i rejected that was done in Poland which got funded in the end that i rejected, not on the basis of it not being a cool idea, but on the basis of me not being shown actionable steps on how they intend to achieve their goals, or even what the goals are. What numbers they intended to reach and what the expected return on investment would be. There was no established goal beyond wishful thinking or just marketing talk.
The proactive approach:
We need to break down everything by numbers going forward and tell the community:
"ok, this is what VP will fund and this is whats expected from you, we will give you pointers but we want visible results that translate into value for Hive."
I know no one is being paid and no one had really much accountability for voluntary work so far. @clayboyn on Splinterlands cant act like this with Splinterlands or he loses his job.
Theres a visible and serious consequence for him.
With Hive its been people putting in time and effort for no pay so how do you even hold them accountable? Are you going to hold accountable the people asking to spend their time for free to try and onboard a few people to Hive? There are no consequences. You stop funding their project? So what. The next non paid person for another project still wont be subject to any consequences as there is no personal loss for them.
Oh youre punishing me by not allowing me to spend more of my time and effort for free to try and help. Oh how terrible!
So thats the pickle and it goes up all the way to the top..
Maybe it changes, probably not, Im almost certain it wont, so id say what Im trying to propose here doesnt really solve all inherent problems with our voluntary system, but it might solve some. Maybe thats enough, maybe its not.
So yeah. So practically speaking I want to make a list on what I think we need, via an established strategy and present it via @valueplan to the community to see if there will be proposals being made that will attempt to deliver the goals we want to achieve.
I really appreciate the effort to bring more structure and direction to ValuePlan, but I think this post still frames Hive’s value a bit too narrowly. Clear goals are important, but Hive’s real strength has always come from its community, creative collaboration, and authentic storytelling rather than strict ROI or conversion metrics.
Projects like the borehole initiative perfectly show why Hive stands out. They might not seem like direct marketing investments, but they represent real-world impact. When people see a blockchain project funding clean water and changing lives, it builds trust, credibility, and long-term brand value that no paid campaign could match. That kind of story draws in developers, investors, and users who care about meaningful technology and social value.
I’ve personally seen this in action. At one of the conferences where I spoke about Hive, the moment that drew the most attention to our booth was after the presentation about the borehole project. People were curious, inspired, and genuinely interested in what Hive was doing. It showed how powerful that kind of storytelling can be when it connects with people on a real level. But it also highlighted the issue we still face: attention was there, retention was not.
On top of that, I find it crazy to measure someone’s value based on where they’re from or how much they earn. That mindset completely goes against what Hive represents. The whole reason I’ve accepted lower pay for my own contributions is because I believe in building something fairer and more balanced. Hive should be about equal opportunity and global inclusion, not ranking people’s worth by geography or income.
What happens after these projects launch could be managed much better. Accountability and transparency matter a lot, but there’s barely any consistent communication or visibility around what ValuePlan has already funded. That’s where a lot of potential gets lost. The content exists, but the storytelling and structure around it are missing.
From a content strategy point of view, this is exactly where Hive could grow stronger. Good initiatives alone aren’t enough. They need clear positioning, regular updates, and strong storytelling to show the world why they matter. With better communication and visibility, ValuePlan could turn existing projects into lasting brand assets for Hive instead of one-off efforts that quietly disappear.
I think people ideologically like the concept of "doing it for free" and "volunteering" which are noble enough pursuits in isolation, but in reality when you're talking about something with long-term, thankless work where you're often put into adversarial positions with your own self-interest, it's just logical that people should and need to be compensated for that work. If they aren't, then it breeds resentment over time and leads to a system ripe for abuse.
So what's the best case scenario with the way things have been done previously? You have overworked people constantly being beaten down for nothing other than the privilege of serving and self martyrdom? Or maybe they quit and look after their own self interests which leaves you in a pickle trying to pick up where they left off. Or worst case scenario, they rob you blind either intentionally or through negligence and mismanagement.
While having the mandatory 3 person signatures may end up being a pain in the ass and it may lead to some or all of you quitting when you reach an impasse, I think it's an improvement to handing out money with no accountability. How absurd would it be if people had to make a proposal and convince the people invested in the chain that it is worthwhile to be spending money that is literally debt against their own token value.
Yep, real dangers. And since most work is based on their contributions they could take all that with them with no real replacement being possible.
Its the best thing I feel we can realistically do for now. You can always see grand ideas being presented in the heat of battle but that blows over fast. I just wanted this "sure thing" to happen because I knew it could. All these other grand ideas of having a foundation type thing, paid positions, (which i did try and push) theres simply no way will pass in my opinion.
People are rarely going to pay you for something on their own they hope you do for free and because you have a bit of skin in the game, they silently expect you do it for free and be happy about it. If you dont, you get shit on. You get shit on either way. haha
You could even say that time spent on Hive, loyalty, previous time invested essentially works against peoples personal interest.
It is, what it is. But I am definitely happy with this one change at least.
Better kill off VP completely and start with something new and new prerequirements before any funds are spent. If one or three sign is just ridiculous.
If we had a prediction market, i would bet a 1000 HBD on stayoutoftheherz never leaving anything that would resemble a positive comment on one of my posts. 😅
I get it. Stuffs not great. Im trying to help fix it and this is how I will try to do it. Thats the best i can do really. 😉
I wish I could snap my fingers and we end up top 100 in MC, but im only a butterfly, im not a magic butterfly.
I've told you this before, and now you have the power to make it happen. This waste of money on Venezuela doesn't help us at all. It doesn't matter how altruistic it sounds. It's a web of proven corruption, and I'm sure @guiltyparties insists on funding this stupidity.
My position on it is very clear, which is why i mention it in the post multiple times, corruption or no corruption accusations aside.
I’m glad we’ve been having the DHF discussion lately. Here’s my two cents—something I’ve been voicing at all the online and offline meetups I’ve attended lately.
First and foremost, I believe we should approach any funded project as a business project, with the best practices of project management: SMART goals, clearly defined scope, roles, responsibilities, checkpoints, identified bottlenecks... Just all the stuff we have been ignoring so far. A proposal will then span tens of pages, some might argue. Yes, but it is necessary in my opinion. Then we as a community should not approach these proposals based on sympathies and emotions, but with a business mindset. As investors, not friends.
On the other hand, we should tolerate failure. Even the best ideas and projects may fail terribly, often due to bad luck or externalities the responsible people could not influence. And that's okay. Let’s not blame each other for past failures, not even for future ones; let’s learn our lessons instead.
I personally believe Value Plan has a priceless database of past projects, as we’ve already spent about $4 million, if I am not mistaken. How about starting with scrutinizing these projects publicly and analyzing their impact? A deep and honest analysis, though. Just off the top of my head:
Based on the data, we can focus on what has shown some success, and perhaps brainstorm how to improve it, or scale it up in different regions, etc.
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Thanks!
Yes.
Again yes.
I was not involved with any of those projects beyond Vibes and I dont want to deal with that. I think VP had pretty regular reports so far. Its on people to judge those reports as they wish. Im just going to go forward applying my viewpoint on those projects you are talking about here. I shared my viewpoint on them here and you can extract how i will approach them in the future.
It doesn't seem the current reports are sufficient, to be honest. Anyway, who has access to all the data? Who oversaw the VP spending? Perhaps more than a single person, but still. From what I understood, many receipts and other documents have never been disclosed. I understand they might contain sensitive information, like names or people's IDs, but these can be easily redacted.
Before we adjust our approach for the future, let's learn from the past!
Well thats why i say theyre on people to judge. :)
Then it makes the impression that very little is going to change.
I can tell you the reports will definitely change. 😅
It doesn't matter at all if it's Venezuela or Cuba or any other place, if one place will catch it to the level of network effect it goes on from there. On contrary we should focus more on places that need Hive the most. It has nothing to do with "niceness and good heart" On the part of effectivness I agree, we already see that certain marketing activities doesn't benefit us proportionally to money spent. Local community leaders, bottom-up movements, education and community building are marketing tactics interwoven in Hive DNA. These stories prove usage of Hive in certain use cases and create effective narratives to go with story telling based marketing.
Hive is not another business oriented chain with bought activity in social media (how is mr Instagram soccer player doing on Hive?). There are real, living human beings building this space. I mean, what you write about big part of Hive community is highly disrespectful if not insulting, proves you lack crucial understanding of this tech and its potential and at the end by creating concentration of power is one of the biggest threats to the chain right now IMHO.
So instead of Value then Plan, you want Plan then Value?
I do come up with the craziest of ideas. 😂
No. It's genius. Or at least commonsense in some circles...
I've said in the past, would be wise to use the DHF to pay for results, rather than promises. Create confidence that way. It would actually encourage driven individuals with a plan to go ahead and deliver results. Then they could create a proposal and say, "Look what I did." And the payment from DHF would be more like a bonus.
However, at times early funding is a requirement. I understand the need for steady maintenance fees. So on and so forth. So that bonus program would just be another layer on top.
Or maybe it's within the scope of VP?
Theres different approaches to different things. It will have to be part of the overall strategy. Different projects have different metrics and different value propositions. Some have higher potential returns but much higher failure rates. Some can have immediate results, some need time. It has to be evaluated on a per case basis.
Right. Just pointing out how self-starters who can get shit done without help anyway, could be motivated to arrive and start, if there's a light at the end of the tunnel. A bonus program is an incentive. Ideal for those cases. Could also be a draw. Can't be a draw if it's not a thing.
Just throwing a good idea out into the world here. Expecting nothing to happen. More for my entertainment, I guess.
And you’re missing the contortionists who are all about extraction and gimmicks, and what can I say about the car, I don’t see much contribution there. And what about the travelers who roam the continent traveling with funds from the value plan, yet if you check their accounts, not a cent—pure extraction. At some point, I was going to request funds for my reforestation project, but I’d rather not waste my time. Anyway, hopefully, that bunch of opportunists stops extracting and starts investing.
Sure, I would agree.
But lets do a simple test here, if you want to engage. How does your reforestation project help Hive? If you want to write a few sentences.
Nothing much, this is the problem i am thinking in incorporate a children in my proyect to plants thousands of plants of acrocomia aculeata, and maybe they could incorporated the children to hive in a closer future or their parents,
Maybe i can written some lines, for this plants, by the way it could be cheap very cheap than other guys who spend all funds of their proyects without tangible results, i need around $10,000.00 to cover the proyect in around 5 years but well the publicity received in an area with a population of 10'000 members.
Maybe but they are only an ideas.
Told me it would be posible?
See, from my personal perspective this would not be a valuable expenditure for Hive. Its cool, im not trying to discourage you from doing it, but this would not directly translate to either valuable users or investors.
Now, if you had a large plot of trees you would need funding for you to cut down and sell, and then replant, returning investment into Hive and maybe using HBD in some way, that would in my mind be valuable to Hive. (ofc, this wouldnt be something that would be under VP umbrella anyway).
In a way funding a coal plant that generates revenue would be more monetarily valuable to Hive than ecological endeavors if you understand what i mean. 😇
For this, maybe a couple hundred USD could be spent as a community event of sorts, but 10k USD I would not consider justifiable in terms of what we are getting back from the expenditure.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me. Yes, of course I know it’s not directly viable, that’s why I haven’t implemented it yet. But as you’ll know, my niche will always be agriculture, and that’s where I hope to make my contribution.
And yes, you’re right. I’ll keep moving forward with my plan to replant this plant I love. By the way, thanks for the suggestion—it’s very possible that I’ll implement cocoa cultivation in the short term. It’s a small project here, a proof of concept that I hope to scale up. If funding doesn’t come through, at least it’ll be something wonderful to share on Hive and also support our badly atrophied environment.
Thanks a lot for the ideas. I’ll leave you what I’ll scale up in our small area so you can see how our bountiful land is.
I would want VP to maybe one day actually try and fund irl business ventures, for now, its just a marketing wing. I personally had a bunch of ideas myself on how to utilize the DHF to be revenue generating.
So anything going in that direction I would love to see.
I really like what you are speaking of. More structure and control, more pointing at things hive wants to achieve…rather than just reacting to requests.
1 thing missing in this post is how those 3 vote multisig users are decided.
You want accountability. Those positions should be voted and have a term of 1 year.
I don’t deny people’s good intentions on value plan. But I do deny that there has been any clear and quantifiable results.
Why should all the same people who have been involved remain.
There should be a complete shake up at the administration level.
Fresh faces is what is called for at this moment.
Im not opposed to changing the people making the decisions over time. But to be very open, these are not the same people that are involved in decisions making. I was not involved in approval of VP expenditure. I will be now. Thats why im writing this.
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Did you know that @stresskiller is also a witness now ?
Hey @lordbutterfly , good to hear your thoughts on all of this. I've been a bit out of the loop recently.
I was wanting to reach out to see if you wanted to hear some info around the whole vibes debacle. It is probably better to do on X through messages etc, might help with a few things (I am frequently asked for money, and this year, given the situation, it pertains to the scenario outlined in @valueplan post the other day) - Happy to share if required, if not all good as I know the case is somewhat closed.
Still, I'd like to say thanks for all you did for the music comp. I posted a vid just before I saw the post, and I probably wouldn't have had the same message had I seen it earlier
Though I understand where you are coming from, to grow usage and investors can be achieved in multiple ways.
I, for one, believe that a way, perhaps the best method, is to grow bottom up. With that, I mean word-of-mouth marketing instead of push marketing. For word-of-mouth marketing, the focus shall be on the existing community members, for them to help with onboarding new users. Investors come when the community becomes stronger and larger.
Perhaps, more focus should be towards rewarding existing users when onboarding new people, to help new users become active in one or the other way, and stay active.
We can have long debates on what active users are.
My take is that an active user is more than 'just' being active in the blog side of things of HIVE, ie posting, commenting, curating. Plenty of people spend tons of time outside blogging/commenting/curating, aiming to 'promote' and 'sell' HIVE. Like the local Polish community with their physical home base in Krakow. I had the privilege to meet the people over there in real life two years ago and I was impressed by what they are doing. Central to much they do is HIVE and crypto. Educating locals in the physical world about crypto, and ofc HIVE.
Many other communities are trying to do good things for HIVE. Some are being rewarded in one or the other way, eg with (massive) votes to their posts, or funding from the proposal system. Though many others fly more or less under the radar.
An idea I have already had for a long time: We need a centralised website around (all) the community projects (and news), a place for all community members and all the people in the world to see and follow what is happening in and around HIVE. Digging through posts is too decentralised and time-consuming.
For the first time, I was away from HIVE for a long period of time after being active almost daily for 8 years; therefore, I am not up to speed on the latest and greatest.
Really appreciate your efforts on bringing more structure, accountability and sensible spending.
I don't know what would work better, but just as an alternative, you could make your own proposal for project xyz and you can run it however you think it makes sense. Not saying this is the best or proper way, I don't know what's better. Just as an option. If the requested funds are far less and it's more focused on a given project, the proposal has higher likelihood of being funded. (On the other hand, being forced to have a consensus between 3 people might give some really good results, with decisions and approaches encompassing a wider perspective - in the best-case scenario.)
One thing I do see as a huge potential improvement is gathering community feedback. For example, for me as a dev, I see gigantic inefficiencies in how funds are spent on dev work. A simple post to request feedback from the community on a particular planned activity/expense can do wonders. Like, many orders of magnitude improvement. So, make a plan, post on-chain for feedback (we can give it in whatever format would be most useful to you), then at the end you incorporate whatever feedback you like - you decide and you don't have to please people or seek consensus from the whole community.