I usually don't post something without watching it first.. But.. I've been waiting for this debate for like a couple weeks!
Whatever side of the issue you are on in regards to health/nutrition and animal rights and all that, this should be a fascinating watch for almost anyone.. Cause even most meat eaters think eating raw meat is bizarre and dangerous, so.. I think most people who are interested in this kind of stuff will be interested in this debate and I'm just going to share it even though I haven't seen it.
I very much look forward to listening to this later when I get a chance!
Cheers.
This is really weird to watch it that people also consume raw meat.
Ever eaten Beef Jerky?
No
Too bad. You have missed a life experience.
thank you for sharing
upvote
You're welcome! Thanks for the upvote.
I'm a meat eater, and I eat many kinds of raw meat, and I dont only mean biting my cuticles. Its not bizarre at all.
I eat prosciutto - raw pork thats been allowed to dry out and rot a little for a year or so - cold smoked salmon - which is delicious, and even unadulterated - from the animal raw meat - such as raw salmon, raw tuna (sushi), raw clams and oysters, even raw beef (carpaccio).
All I ask is that its safe from pathogens - the same way I expect my cooked meats and even salads to be.
Well look. Probably something like 90% of the world cooks it's meat, outside of like some rare cultures who aren't very healthy like the Inuit. Virtually all of our restaurants and experts stress the importance of cooking your meat to avoid getting sick, sushi has sort of been an exception, though.. I would say is not widespread in the US. So.. I think it's pretty fringe, and to most people it is bizarre. I'm pretty sure that's what I said in my OP.
How do you know your raw meat is safe, when sometimes worms and parasites and stuff like that even survive cooking?
Also.. Can you tell me what studies you have that show that eating raw meat is healthy?
Something like 90% of the world is heterosexual. AIDS is rampant in the gay population. yadda yadda; in tone, your argument runs like many I have had with fundamentalist Christians, who are intrinsically repelled by "perversion".
In fact, most societies eat raw meats of one kind or another. I mentioned the most common - Prosciutto/Serrano/Jamon, as well as pickled (raw) herring, smoked salmon, sushi of all kids, Beefsteak Tartare (and its predecessor, horsemeat tartare,
In cultures that are close to their environment, such as the inuit, eating meat raw is common.
The problem really comes when meat is raised in poor condition, like in first world countries - anywhere with large cities, really, where the meat gets less and less fresh by the time it hits the consumer.
But even in America, raw meat is common.
Salami is raw, and its close cousins, pepperoni etc., and then there is the biggy one. Beef Jerky.
Anyone think eating Beef Jerky is Bizarre?
Your comments on parasites is of relevance, meat needs to be parasite-free to eat raw, but then the vegetables we eat can be contaminated with lots of things too... all kinds of bacteria and worms and whatnot.
The answer is the same - we wash, we inspect, and we cook where necessary. I grew up in Ireland, where the idea of eating raw vegetables was considered "bizarre". Nobody ever ate a raw carrot or a raw brussels sprout in those days. The idea would have been ludicrous.
But it is easy enough to solve the parasite problem. Sushi is easily made safe by freezing the fish for 1 week. Freezing kills fish parasites. Drying kills most meat parasites. So does salting.
Kinda like pickling makes vegetables safer. When you store vegetables for winter, you dont just cram a few radishes in a jar and hope for the best.
Its just the same with meat. You wash your food, you inspect it, and if you store it, you preserve it first.
As to raw meat being healthy? Its like anything else. It provides nutrients. If you had a choice between no food and raw meat, you would be healthier eating raw meat than no food.
If you want to go off on a tangent about percentages of animal foods in the diet that are healthy and for what reasons, we could go into that, I suppose.
I could rant on and on about how starch is responsible for most disease in the Western world - Wheat, Rice, Potatoes - flour, pasta, pizza.... About the evils of cottonseed and corn oil.... The appalling destruction wrought by hydrogenated plant oils to make them harder...
If you eat a pound of lard, you will be far healthier than if you eat a pound of vegetable shortening...
....but I dont think you really want to go off on that tangent.
Provide a study for this and for the health benefits of raw meat.
Also yeah, if I was about to die raw meat would help me live longer, but is it healthy? PLANTS ARE.
IN regards to starch being responsible for most disease, provide a study.
In regards to processed oils, I'm not defending those. Things like corn syrup and scientifically altered plants are dangerous. I agree. But.. I think I could provide a lot more evidence that meat causes most disease than you can in regards to starch.
Regardless of the parasite worm issue which is frightening thousands of people a year die from, especially sushi which kills a lot of people.. Studies show animal products to be similar to smoking cigs, that's not healthy.
I don't know of any studies showing vegan diets to be comparable to smoking cigs, no.. Vegans tend to live longest and be most healthy BASED ON STUDIES, with least risk of diseases least vitamin deficiencies, better heart health, better sexual health, less balding, less obesity and on and on and on and on and on.
So.. Just show me some studies that show how healthy raw meat is if it's so healthy, there should be a lot of studies out there.
"
Despite the vitamin E, vitamin K and heart-healthy unsaturated fat content of vegetable shortening, it has two major nutritional drawbacks. One is the 3.2 grams of saturated fat present in one tablespoon of the shortening. According to the Harvard School of Public Health, limiting your intake of saturated fat to 7 percent or less of your total caloric intake can drastically cut your risk of heart disease. Depending on how many calories you consume each day, that tablespoon of vegetable shortening can be a significant amount of that limit. Even more dangerous is the 1.7 grams of trans fat the tablespoon of vegetable shortening contains. Aim to completely eliminate trans fats from your diet because they raise bad cholesterol levels, lower good cholesterol levels and increase your risk of heart disease, reports the Harvard School of Public Health."
If you disbelieve me that trans fats are killers, I will look up actual studies for you.
No you said starch was bad in general, I already told you I don't disagree with the chemical processed things.
Show a study that says starch is bad in general like you said it was. Not chemicals like saturated fat/trans fats and stuff like that.
And if you're worried about that stuff you get tons of it in meat, animal products are the largest contributor to heart disease. THE PRESIDENT OF THE COLLEGE OF CARDIOLOGY IS VEGAN and he advocates his patients to go vegan.
So.. Are you saying you are better researched on this than the president of the college of cardiology?
"Show a study that says starch is bad in general like you said it was".
I said that if you eat EXCESS CARBS, it is worse for you than eating excess fat, because it gets stored in the internal organs, as visceral fat, rather than in the flab, as excess fat gets stored.
"glucose production from the liver.
How does fat accumulate in liver? Storage of liver fat can
only occur when the total daily calorie intake exceeds
expenditure day after day, and year after year. During any
one period of time, if more calories are ingested than
metabolized then any fat excess is stored either subcutaneously,
viscerally or in the liver. But any excess carbohydrate
cannot be stored once the glycogen depots are full. If more
glucose is ingested than can be oxidized for energy or stored
as glycogen, it has to be turned into fat by the process of de
novo lipogenesis. This process only happens in the liver in
humans, and triglyceride synthesized in situ is particularly
likely to be stored in hepatocytes rather than exported for
safe storage in subcutaneous adipose tissue. The newly
synthesized fat has three possible fates: it can be oxidized for
energy; exported as VLDL in the plasma to be delivered to
other tissues or it can be stored in a rather full liver. "
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/banting-memorial-lecture.pdf
Read the entire lecture - it might save your life.
And yes, I would not be surprised that I am better researched on this than the THE PRESIDENT OF THE COLLEGE OF CARDIOLOGY
Why?
(1) because I an a trained biochemist (Ph.D.), but more importantly, because I was diagnosed with prediabetes. That motivated me to do research. This paper was a huge part of that.
You will find that PRESIDENTS of US bodies are heavily bribed by agribusiness to say what they are told to say, but also you will find that people are just dumb. The advice to go on low-fat diets has demonstrably messed up US health. More Americans are low-fat than ever before, and diabetes, stroke, heart attacks are skyrocketing. Its linked. Low fat inevitably means high carb.
And high carb is the problem.
"How does fat accumulate in liver? Storage of liver fat can
only occur when the total daily calorie intake exceeds
expenditure day after day, and year after year. During any
one period of time, if more calories are ingested than
metabolized then any fat excess is stored either subcutaneously,
viscerally or in the liver. But any excess carbohydrate
cannot be stored once the glycogen depots are full. "
I can only repeat this so many times.
EXCESS carbs get converted to FAT IN THE LIVER.
This then SPILLS OVER into the PANCREAS and other organs.
VISCERAL FAT - not flab - IS THE KILLER.
When you eat EXCESS FAT, it gets stored in flab. Harmless, if unsightly, flab.
"but is it healthy? PLANTS ARE."
By and large, if you are in the jungle, you will live longer if you eat only things that you have to run after to catch. Plants, being immobile, have evolved many defenses against predation. There are a few animals that are poisonous, mostly at the bottom of the food chain, and they have developed violent red, yellow and black coloration to advertise the fact.
But dont believe me. You go out to your nearest forest, eat one plant at random, while I eat one four-legged animal at random. Lets see who lives longest.
Sorry I didn't mean all plants, there are surely poisonous plants out there. I wasn't saying that ALL plants are healthy, I meant edible plants as opposed to meat.
Now I gotta get going for a while, my time is up. I'll respond more later.
Did you mean that all meats are unhealthy? Because all edible meats are not.
Yeah; edible plants and edible meats are edible, and non-edible plants and non-edible meats are not edible. I agree 100% with this.
In general though, because plants are immobile, they are likely to contain more toxins than meat. Try eating a bowl of chillis, or a bowl of lemons (including the pith and skin) or a bowl of basil. Thats the SAFE plants, without even getting into potatoes that have gone green, or veggies that have gone rotten.
Try eating raw (shelled) beans and lentils and you'll be going to the hospital. They are full of lectins, plant poisons. And those are the EDIBLE plants.
Heck, I bloat up like crazy if I eat Jerusalem artichokes, boiled mustard greens or sprouts, all of which I live. Eat too much and I'll be in agony of those COOKED AND PERFECTLY SAFE plant-based foods.
Give me something my stomach can handle, like 4 ounces of raw beef, anyday.
This shouldnt be a war about one OR the other - there are always exceptions and anecdotes and isolated studies and problems with processing.
The truth is that we should eat about 1800 calories of a diet including about 70% non-starchy plants. That's about it.
Meat-only eaters can comensate with metamucil and vitamin pills. Vegans can compensate by eating the settled dregs of beer-brewing or vitamin pills.
But just eat a balanced diet and you'll be better off.
If you eat a lot of starch right now, you really need to cut back hugely. Thats the advice I can give you.
"I think I could provide a lot more evidence that meat causes most disease than you can in regards to starch."
Unlikely. Starch is the number one killer in the Western diet. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2844943/Why-fry-isn-t-bad-thought-Carbohydrates-risk-diabetes-heart-disease-saturated-fat.html
https://www.livescience.com/48969-heart-disease-diabetes-risks-carbohydrate-saturated-fat.html
Simply put, when you overeat carbs, they get converted to fat IN THE LIVER, where one third stays, destroying your liver. Another third spills into other organs, such as the pancreas and heart, where they cause other diseases. One third makes it to the adipose tissue.
When you overeat fat, it goes straight from the blood to the flab, where it causes few problems.
Basically, starch-> visceral fat, the fat that kills.
PS. Cigarettes are plant "foods". They contain the same toxins I was warning about, and are also found in deadly nightshade and green potatoes. Members of the Solanum family - eat with caution.
"Vegans tend to live longest and be most healthy "
There is a reason for that. Its hard to overeat if you eat vegetables, as most are nutrient poor. You wont get fat on a diet of radishes and cucumbers, or green beans.
But try living on a diet of pizza, fried bread, corn oil, high-fructose corn syrup and Tofu, and you will be going to the hospital fairly quickly.
Sure, you say, there are SOME bad vegan foods.... Yes, and I say the same to you. Eating too much factory meat will make you sick, especially if its processed with things like too much salt and nitrates.
But eating meat is not a killer. The vast majority of meat-eaters live quite happy and long lives.
If I can squeeze out another couple of years by eating raw lentils all day long (toxic by the way), I'll do with the couple of years less.
The Inuit, by the way, were reasonably healthy on their mostly animal diet. Since the introduction of wheat, soda, pizza and other plant-based foods, their health has plummeted, with increasing diabetes, heart attacks and strokes.
Thats how I could write that if I were to write it as you put your side of the debate.
The reality is that overconsumption is the problem - not whether the stuff that is being overconsumed is plant-based or animal based.
In addition to overconsumption, there is the issue of contamination and spoilage, which is also true of both.
Ultimately, the solution is not to binge on animal fat or on plant starches, either of which is more or less unhealthy if taken to excess, and which will keep you short of vitamins,
The answer is to eat a balanced diet, not too much of anything.
We should eat, as Michael Pollan writes, "Food, Not too much, Mostly plants".
Thats it. We need to cut down on animal fats and on plant starches, we need to get enough minerals and vitamins, and we need some protein, some good fats, and some starch.
As long as you dont skew your diet too far one way or another, you'll be OK.
The big killers are overeating and imbalance.
The Inuit have horrible health, horrible bone problems, horrible heart health, they die young.. If you wanna model your health on that.. I dunno what to say, look unbiased studies, not the ones which were cherry picked for the Paleo fad.
A lot of this was determined before all that stuff you mentioned.. Back in like.. 1970 I think? Or maybe even earlier. They aren't healthy, there's never been an unbiased study showing they were.
It's funny you blame plants on all of that but don't mention any animal products.. It seems like you're biased and not interested in a real discussion.
According to studies anything more than like 10% animal protein becomes a problem.. So.. Yeah.. It's like smoking a cig once and a while versus being a chain smoker, but it's not healthy.
You probably won't get cancer if you eat meat once and a while, but if you chain eat it, much better odds!
This is specific to ANIMAL PROTEIN, NOT PLANT PROTEIN.
If you eat meat more than like once a week, you're probably eating too much.
"The Inuit have horrible health, horrible bone problems, horrible heart health, they die young.."
Has that gotten better or worse since they adopted more Western foods, replacing seal blubber with vegetarian pizza and adding wheat buns to their meats?
Science says it has gotten worse. You say?
"It's funny you blame plants on all of that but don't mention any animal products.. It seems like you're biased and not interested in a real discussion"
What I'm saying is that their diet has become more vegetarian in recent years and that their health has worsened as a result.
I'm not actually arguing for a diet of seal blubber; what I'm doing is pointing out that your feelings are simplistic and reactionary and based on far too many one-sided documentaries that cherry-pick facts.
I'm prepared to say that the population needs to eat more vegetables. Are you prepared to admit that the big killer in the Western Diet is plant foods? Specifically, Wheat, Rice, Potato, corn?
Because if you arent, you are blinding yourself to reality to pretend that all plants are good and all meats are bad.
The reality is that some meats are worse than others, and some plants are worse than others, and that it is perfectly possible to have a very healthy diet eating a balanced mix of plant and animal foods.
Sure. Meats with feces on it are bad for you. So are salads with feces on it.
Meats infected with parasites are bad for you. So are plants coated with parasites (how do you think cows get the parasites?).
So quit with the fake scare stories and focus on the real issue:
Does eating 4 ounces of fresh meat from a good source kill you?
The answer is no.
Will it harm you? Sure, slightly, but then so will just about any plant you eat. Because plants are filled with toxins. (antioxidants are not really antioxidants in most cases, they are really oxidants that push your innate anti-oxidant systems into becoming stronger in response).
Neither will kill you.
But there are things that WILL kill you.
Processed meats (nitrates); Hydrogenated plant oils (animal fats dont need to be hydrogenated); White starches.
THOSE are the killers. Not a filet steak now and then, or a juicy mackeral
Just one thought, you are saying that since they became more vegetarian there health has become worse. Yes those bad foods are vegetarian, but that doesn't mean the reason they are bad is because they are vegetarian foods. If a potato was laced with cyanide, you wouldn't say the potato is the problem, you would say the cyanide was. Same with pizza. It's not the vegetarian part that is wrong with it, it's the other stuff (i don't know what the other stuff is, fats and salts I guess)
Also how is rice a killer? I thought it was super healthy, I eat it often.
"If you eat meat more than like once a week, you're probably eating too much."
You need some perspective. Bacon is one of the worst meats out there..
"As Cancer Research UK points out in an astute blog, colorectal cancer is itself relatively rare. If you eat barely any meat, there is a 5.6% risk of developing the disease over your lifetime; even if you pig out on bacon and ham every day, it only rises to about 6.6%. In other words, for every 100 people who stop eating bacon, only one will have avoided cancer. To put that in perspective, consider the figures for tobacco: for every 100 smokers who give up, 10-15 lives may be saved. The two are hardly comparable." http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20151029-are-any-foods-safe-to-eat-anymore-heres-the-truth
All the meats he described are cured meats when aren't actually raw by definition. As for fish that is fairly safe to eat raw if you don't take into account heavy metal bioaccumialtion.
I'm currently vegan but recent reading has made me question my diet. Many of the foods I eat to replace what I would get from meat has lectins in them. This includes the nightshade family, beans, soy, root vegetables and many more. Lectins are endocrine disrupters that effect hormone regulation and can cause mental health issues and even shrinking of the brain. This has led me on a path to figuring out if I can still maintain a vegan diet while staying away from foods with lectin in it.
"All the meats he described are cured meats when aren't actually raw by definition."
You have a funny definition of "Raw". Beef jerky is dried raw meat.
I think of "raw" as "uncooked", not "undried".
Silly me.
I cheerfully eat raw beef. Raw, as in undried, uncooked, although I do add salt for flavor.
This entire argument is absurd. meat and vegetables can both be spoiled. In many cases, people prefer them to be spoiled. There are those nasty "bury a fish-head on the beach" foods, and there are the fermented (rotted) vegetable foods. Chacun a son gout. Chinese people eat "thousand-year-old-eggs" and "stinky tofu" (yuk).
And then there is Natto.
Basically, fermented protein is highly stinky. Whether that is stinky cheese, cheese with maggots in it, sharkmeat thats been rotted for months, soybeans that have been rotted, fish that have been rotted as fish sauce - its all highly stinky.
Fermented carbs, if you are lucky, just go sour. If unlucky, you are talking aflatoxins. You know those dented cans that can kill you?
The take home is this: bacteria can kill or cure. The difference between probiotic and killer toxin is the toss of a coin. Badly canned tomatoes? Dicing with death, not dicing tomatoes.
This is not an argument between meat and veg, its an argument about which bugs will kill you and which wont. Its a debate on food hygiene, and whether its best to kill all bacteria or to eat "live foods".
Beef jerky is a meat that is hard dried. All the moisture is taken out of it and can last for several years. You can brine and cure bacon for several years as well in salt and water. Once you want to use it you have to wash of the salt.
Do you really think this guy buys salami, keeps it at room temperature and waits 4 months before eating it? He's likely buying groceries every week like most modern people and isn't eating meat outside it's date.
Can you also tell me what statistic you got the 90% of all meat eaten is cooked and the fact that all restaurants stress the importance of cooked meat. Last time I checked most places offered blue rare that are steakhouses.
I'm on mobile ATM but I can show you how most of the vegetables you eat are not good for your body either (I mentioned it in my last comment)
What I think we have here is an interpretation problem. We have an infinite amount of facts at our disposable to prove both points.
I think raw in this case means more in regards to whether it's cooked or not, not whether it's been preserved or not, but there tends to be a umm.. Differening of opinions on the definition of "raw".
Interesting though.
Not really, the risk of parasites and worms and viruses is still there. And other things. People die from raw fish all the time.
That's cool to hear you're vegan, what reading? I think I have a guess cause I was largely unfamiliar with the lectin issue and found one major book from a guy who claims that most fruits and vegetables are the same as eating skittles and it's hard to take it very seriously.
I did a lil reading and here are a few things of note. And a link.
"White people in America are eating the most pitiful amount of beans to begin with. Just a few pounds per person per year. Meanwhile, Hispanics are eating 31 pounds of beans per person per year. Hispanics also eat more corn, more tomatoes, and more peppers. That's a lot of lectins. If beans and lectins are so poisonous as Dr gundry claims, wouldn't you expect to see negative Health outcomes among the Hispanic population as a result? Quite the opposite. In fact, Hispanics have a longer life expectancy than non-hispanic whites and blacks in both men and women in the United States. Not only that, but they also have lower rates of lung cancer, bladder cancer, throat cancer, and colon cancer.
If beans are poisonous, the people who eat the most of them sure are living longer and getting less cancer."
https://medium.com/@Kahn642/the-plant-paradox-and-the-oxygen-paradox-dont-hold-your-breath-for-health-14c146e0c414
In light of all that, I personally am not worried about it. Honestly kind of sounds like an attempt by big meat and dairy to keep their profits alive.. I mean.. How could anyone say skittles are the same as fruit and vegetables? They are essentially both sugar, but one has been put through a chemical process and one is natural. Big difference.
There's a lot of these fake studies going around trying to shift the blame away from meat and dairy and they're often mixed in with the paleo crowds. Which, if you look to ancient history.. Most paleo people barely ate any meat.
BUT.. If you still believe it's a problem.. I found some people who claim to have avoided those things and maintained a vegan diet.. So if you try, you can do cut those things out and make it work. I just personally am not very concerned and I really enjoy my beans, I've eaten them my entire life more than any other food probably and I'm humble but I'd say I'm above average in a lot of ways mentally. People tell me this all the time, they say I'm really smart.. So.. I don't think I have any brain problems or really.. Any health problems in general outside of just not getting enough exercise lately.
Haven't really noticed any ill effects after 2 years vegan, only positive ones. How long have you been trying now?
I came here by way of the title... curious about how "raw meat eaters" actually would define themselves.
Point being, I eat sushi; I like my steak rare, I might eat "steak tartare" now and then, I'll eat "cold smoked" salmon, pickled herring and other things...
What strikes me most about the whole thing is "food handling." I was born and raised in Denmark... I don't remember people freaking out over raw/undercooked meat... and I don't remember people getting sick. When I first arrived in the US (1981) people flipped out all around me if the hamburgers were cooked to anything less than the consistency of a hockey puck.
So I'm not sure what gives.
Truth in disclosure, I did NOT watch 5 hours of video... meanwhile, on a lighter note, here's satirist JP Sears taking on this topic:
ohh its a long video and sure i watch it later when i free @apolymask sir i think it contain on good thought video
Overall, everything I say can be distilled very simply; you can take ANY fad diet - eating raw meat, eating only raw foods, eating only Soylent, eating only vegan, Paleo, Atkins and so on and so on, and you will find people who are SURE that all the research points their way. And those who follow the diet religiously (and it usually IS a religion in their lives) usually are healthier. Why? Because people eat less when they eat monotonous diets.
For decades we were told that "all studies show that eating fats are bad for you"
Guess what; what everyone knew was wrong.
There were far more studies saying that eating fat was bad for you than eating meat is bad for you, and they were all dead wrong. Switching away from fat led to a corresponding shift to carbohydrate and gave us the sick world we have to day.
People eat meat worldwide and life far healthier than many US vegetarians.
Why? Two main factors. (1) Amount of calories in US is excessive. A vegetarian fast food diet - fries (plant oil fried), Veggie Pizza, Veggie Chimichangas and all the rest - is a killing diet. (2) Excessive carbohydrates are a killer. Far worse than fat or protein.
For every study you show me on meat, I'll show you a study on how Tofu has harmful isoflavones. Or how beans contain lectins and have to be prepared very carefully. Or cyanides. Or green potatoes. Or you picked the wrong mushrooms.
Do more people die of steak or mushrooms worldwide?
The simple answer is to remember that fads come and fads go; and what we were told was healthy yesterday (margarine!) turns out to be a killer today (margarine - trans fats).
So just eat a balanced diet.
Furthermore, a balanced diet = a balanced ecosystem. Keeping chickens, ducks, etc. makes for a far healthier small farm than one based on sprays and poisons and artificial fertilizers. If we all subsisted on corn and soy, our farms would be soy and corn monocultures (bicultures?).
Our food should resemble a natural ecosystem - mostly perennials, mostly plants, some meat.
Anything else and you are speaking a religion, not a science.