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RE: Democratizing Steem!

in #steem5 years ago

You're confusing concentration of wealth with centralization. Concentration is not centralization.

Allowing huge stakeholders to control all the witnesses, that's not absolutely the reason why DPoS is so widely criticized.

It is? And clearly these critiques are drummed up from pure unadulterated bullshit, much like that article I posted demonstrated, the large stakeholders don't control all the witnesses, but they should, after all, if you don't trust them to do it why trust smaller accounts with magnitudes less to lose than the large stakeholders?

I don't want one person one vote, I want 10 votes. I stated that pretty clearly.

It's the same effect:

There are 20 positions that are responsible for adapting new code changes, you don't trust large stakeholders to have a native choice to vote over 20 of them, so you want them to only vote over 10, because "democracy" (mob rule) or "decentralization" (where it actually means dissuading stake concentration), because there's a problem which doesn't exist, why not one person one vote, you clearly aren't fixing anything with this suggestion and I think you have absolutely no chance of getting people to vote against their own best interests, but good luck trying, maybe stake based systems aren't for you, maybe you don't see how undermining the basis for holding stake into one account or to concentrate stake undermines the entire reason for pos.

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You're confusing concentration of wealth with centralization. Concentration is not centralization.

Of course this is centralization, centralization is having very few people having a lot of power over the system.
If that is a large stakeholder via a consensus node (PoS), a large stakeholder voting "his kind" into power (DPoS) or a large mining pool (PoW). All of these things undermine the principle of decentralization.

And as I mentioned PoW, all types of blockchain have similar issues.

If you'd read the literature, you'd know that all these blockchains are heavily criticized for these points. Because all of these blockchain allege decentralization, but in practice it's more a buzzword than real decentralization. (Minings pools, monopolization, etc)

And as I said, I trust a big pool of large stakeholders -> Yes
I trust 1-2 stakeholders -> No.

It is called single point of failure.

And I don't trust a single point of failure, if its a stakeholder or not.

I see there is no real point discussing with someone who calls the others person arguments "horseshit". Same kind of people who doubt man made climate change or think the earth is flat. What do I care about scientists, I can read a few blogs about the topic myself and I know things very well then.

These people who do distributed system research for many years, they know nothing.

http://vukolic.com/iNetSec_2015.pdf For example talks about the issues of mining pools leading to centralization. Which got it mainly from here: https://www.infoq.com/articles/is-bitcoin-a-decentralized-currency/ which describe most mining pools as a threat and hope that more decentralized mining pools surge (Where you can apply the mining pool to big stakeholder issue 1:1 almost).
I can't find the paper atm which was talking about the monopoly problem.
http://www.coinfox.info/news/reviews/6417-proof-of-work-vs-proof-of-stake-merits-and-disadvantages
Does summarize it pretty well though.

If there is a single stakeholder which MAY define all witnesses and then almost do whatever he wants with the chain. Then this is a major risk for the security of the chain. And thus it is not very well decentralized. I don't know what it so difficult to understand with this.

Imagine, someone from another Blockchain doing this to bring down Steem to value his own Blockchain or Steem fork. At the moment this would be even "relatively cheap".

Following that logic, Facebook is not centralized either. There is one shareholder who has mayor stake in the company and which pretty much acts in "the best interest" of the company because of that. So, why do we need cryptocurrencies. Can't we just trust Paypal and Facebook? They are acting in the best interest of their companies too. They're kind decentralized as well. Got a lot of people from all over the world holding their stocks. Let's let Paypal put their money on the blockchain and let them handle the permissioned ledger and it's going to be alright.

The reason I'm in blockchain is exactly to not have this situation. On Steem there was recently a situation where some Witnesses thought about forking the chain, and Steemit Inc said they could elect just the 20 witnesses themselves in that moment.

There is the possibility of that happening, and they said they would do that. Is that decentralization or does it just kinda seem like it.

And of course, as long as they got 30 votes to cast, they could just do that, with 10 votes, especially on the short term, that is much more difficult.

I'm not saying that huge stake holders shouldn't be able to have a big influence. And I'm not denying that this makes sense in the context of game theory. Nonetheless, on Steem this influence is essentially to big, which is a big risk for the chain. So reducing this to 10 votes, would improve the situation while still maintaining the central elements of PoS. (And no, I don't want 1 vote, I want 10).