Objection #2: The thief on the cross, did he go to heaven that day?
Quick summary of what we learned on Part 1: Moses and Elijah with Jesus at mt of transfiguration:
- The Lord himself buried Moses.
- Moses was resurrected by the archangel.
- David is still in the grave awaiting the voice of the archangel.
- Martha understood this is how it works.
- John teaches that a future event will take place where all who are dead will rise again at the last day.
You can't use "Moses and Elijah" as evidence that when we die we go to heaven upon death and stay in harmony with all the other verses that speak of the dead not having any thoughts, memories, etc. Going to heaven will only happen when you are resurrected on the last day.
Continuing...
Objection 2 to "Death as sleeping":
At first glance, this seems like a slam dunk. Jesus is saying, "Today you will be with me in paradise." Let's analyze this to see if it's as simple as it sounds.
- Jesus died on Friday as the sun was setting.
- Jesus rose on Sunday and explains He has not yet gone to the Father.
- Furthermore, Jesus remained on earth for 40 days before returning to heaven.
- The book of Revelation shows us what "Paradise" is and where it is.
| Question | Answer |
|---|---|
| Did Jesus go to paradise that day? | No. The Bible says he rested and rose on Sunday and had not yet ascended to the Father. |
| When did Jesus ascend to heaven? | It was at least 40 days after because Jesus died during Passover and ascended 10 days before the holiday of Pentecost. In those 40 days, he showed himself to |
| Is there a difference between Heaven and Paradise? | It certainly appears that way. Paradise is the "new Eden" where God creates the new garden for us to live in. The book of Revelation shows us that the tree of life is in paradise and paradise happens on the new earth in the new Jerusalem. So the thief is going to have to wait 1000 years in heaven with God before even stepping foot in paradise, but Jesus did promise him that he would be there, and he will. |
Hold on, something isn't right...
It's rather simple. The Greek manuscript does not contain punctuation at all. That's a "modern" concept and the manuscripts do not include things like commas, periods, quotation marks and yes...even spaces. Meaning, if we were to read it literally (without translation), it would look like:
andjesussaidtohimassuredlyIsaytoyoutodayyouwillbewithmeinparadise
Question: Given the knowledge above of when Jesus actually ascended to heaven, if you were a modern-day translator of the Greek manuscript to English, where would you put that comma?
- Note: It's nothing new to create new translations from the Greek manuscript to other, clearer, or easy to read versions. This is how we get the NIV, NASB, NKJV, ESV, etc..
Answer: If I were a modern-day translator and I know Jesus didn't ascend that very day (given the scripture above) I would logically have to conclude that the comma goes after "today". Does that make a difference?
- This makes a big difference and now allows the rest of scripture to be in harmony with Jesus not yet ascending to heaven. Clearly, Jesus was making a statement that the thief would be with him in paradise, just not that day. He would sleep as the rest of the saints and rise at the trumpet sound.
Let’s summarize what we have learned
Jesus died on Friday.
Jesus was rose on Sunday.
On Sunday, Jesus Stated to Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father.
Jesus remained on earth for 40 days before ascending to heaven.
Jesus was seen by 500 people at once, again, before ascending to heaven.
The Greek manuscripts never used commas, periods, quotations or spaces.
Logically, the comma is in the wrong place. Otherwise, it would contradict the rest of scripture. The easy mistake in translation.
In summary, it's literally impossible that Jesus meant that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day because Jesus didn't go to heaven that day. Jesus says that himself many times, therefore, there's no room for error in understanding this. Jesus ascended after 40 days and the thief is dead, "sleeping", awaiting the trumpet sound. Clearly, and without any hesitation, I can say it's nothing more than a simple error in translation from not understanding where to put the comma. That simple.
Special mentions to: @barncat
Source:
- Image: Thief on the cross
- Image: Confused Face
- All other images are of my own creation.
Good work!
Thanks!
219 votes wow 😍
Thanks, it's getting there. It's an interesting subject...or at least I think so, lol!
You refuse to believe the truth.
The thief on the cross went to heaven with Jesus the day they both died. The only way to deny it is to say that Jesus lied.
Moses appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. To say otherwise is to say that the Bible is lying.
As always, you pick and choose the verses you want to believe in order to get the result that you want.
The rich man in hell is the most detailed picture of the afterlife that there is. Lazarus is in a good place and the rich man is in a bad place. Both are alive. It's obvious that it couldn't be a future event because the rich man wants to visit his brothers so they don't end up in hell.
And in Revelation that are the souls in Heaven of the people that had died during the Great Tribulation. They didn't have bodies then but they will at the resurrection.
So obviously when you die you go immediately to heaven or hell where you will remain until the resurrection, the final judgment, and your final placement in your final destination. It really isn't that hard to understand.
@barncat, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'm clearly missing something that you see, so perhaps let's take this one thing at a time.
Sticking with just the thief on the on the cross, what do I do with the scripture where Jesus says he has not yet ascended to heaven?
Also, you have two scenarios where Jesus is lying, if you stick to your theory:
...or...
In either scenario, Jesus would be reduced to a liar. There's no harmony in scripture in this case. So what do we do now?
As Bible students, we need to have an answer to these questions (1 Peter 3:15).
@barncat, also, you said...
For the story of the thief on the cross, which verses did I ignore?
Its ironic that he claims you picked verses that only support your view, when in fact, he didn't offer any verses to back his claims.
Right. I was hoping for a real and honest discussion about what we believe vs what the Bible actually teaches. If he has truth that I am not seeing, then it’s his Christian duty to help me understand.
Don’t care much for the type of responses like, “well you’re wrong I’m right and you refuse the truth.” I’m a Bible student, show me with scripture how you can prove your truth while staying in harmony with all of scripture. And I will do the same, as I am doing with my objections posts.
I took on his challenge.