OK so I credit Peterson with opening my eyes to fallacies in general, I can't fault him there. But I believe any failings of true socialism have happened because anti-socialism factors have been very much in play. Especially from the US, with the sanctions and the undermining and the not minding our own business. No socialist country could possibly succeed with the US, and other world powers, making sure that they do not. It's all one unfortunately. And Peterson has done a lot of good in the world, despite his failings, if only to have opened my mind to possibilities I had never considered before.
And Peterson has done a lot of good in the world, despite his failings...
No doubt that's true, and I congratulate anyone who was able to dig themselves out of a personal hell-hole with Jordan's help. He is however one of the many gateways to unhealthy far right fascistoid ideologies and as such poses a severe threat to freedom and progression. In my opinion the scale tips to the side of the latter, that's all.
He considers himself to be a liberal I believe. So do I, but I appreciate much of conservative thought for the nuances it brings to my more liberal views. He is most definitely not far right, or fascist. I haven't read or watched much of his, but as I said, he opened my eyes to the rigidity of my ideas. Seems to me we could all do with a bit of challenging of our idealistic thought right now.
And so does Dave Rubin and a lot more "classical liberals" and "neoliberals"... I could rest my case here. Liberalism is based on liberty and equality under the law, so how come there's almost no liberal in sight fighting for these principles? Why do almost all of them, Peterson in particular, advocate for a strict hierarchy (the opposite of liberty) and why do they fight against progressives who actually try to correct the inequities so evidently present under the current socioeconomic paradigm? I really don't care what people call themselves; if Peterson has so many far right white nationalists in his follower-base (which he does), can't he see the obvious, which is that whatever he thinks he advocates for, in the end he's just another conservative not much different from the whole PragerU, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin etc. crew? He's intelligent enough to know that...
I don’t disagree that Peterson may be committing a logical fallacy. However, experience has taught me to distrust sound bites and pieced together videos. They are often misleading and lacking in context that would explain why a conversation took that turn. It is common to take people out of context to prove a point using their own words to mean something different or contrary.
I’d be more likely to agree if I watched the full interviews to see what came prior and after the assertions.
However, experience has taught me to distrust sound bites and pieced together videos.
And rightfully so; always inform yourself about people's convictions before blindly accepting the opinions expressed in these pieced together videos. However, I've seen hour after hour of Jordan's speeches, interviews and debates; the man is an inexcusable hack and grifter. His entire claim to fame, the ill-based criticism of the C-19 addendum to the Canadian Human Rights Act was a blatant lie to begin with...
I've watched many of the same videos and have come to see that he is often attacked by taking pieces of what he said or wrote in his book and twisting it to say something grotesquely different.
For example, the lobsters. His claim is that there is biological evidence that evolution has ingrained hierarchy in creatures further down the evolutionary ladder. It is reasonable to expect that people might have some of that ingrained hierarchical tendency too.
Interviewer: You're saying people aren't any smarter than lobsters?
Peterson: I said no such thing. blah blah blah
That's how most of his interviews go.
I do admit that I don't watch his (or most videos) with a logic filter in place. I took logic many years ago and am unpracticed in the art. It only led me to frustration and disappointment as the world generally operates on ego and confirmation bias.
However, I have learned not to take things at face value. I've been burned too many times by accepting what other people tell me without confirming. I've also burned myself several times by jumping to conclusions without verifying what I thought I saw.
Life is less frustrating and requires eating less crow. I haven't much fight left in me. I'm outnumbered and can't even count on what I thought I knew.
I really appreciate you responding in such a clear and honest way my friend :-) And I'm sorry that you seem to be kind of lost when you say:
Life is less frustrating and requires eating less crow. I haven't much fight left in me. I'm outnumbered and can't even count on what I thought I knew.
Don't get me wrong, this is not to diminish or denigrate yourself or your opinions in any way. It just saddens me to hear people are increasingly derailed by the nihilism, fake news and disinformation so prevalent in our age, and indeed don't know what or who to believe anymore. I myself have those spells as well, and as a real life Marxist / communist / socialist I know what it means to be outnumbered...
All I can say is I hope you find a way for yourself to hang on and not give up, whatever your convictions.
No, don’t worry about me. I really am happier. It’s the whole business of having the courage to change the things I can, accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I suppose it could be mistaken for nihilism not having fight left. It’s more along the lines of not fighting everything. There are things in my life that I can influence directly with some gumption and passion. I can make a bigger difference in my community and to the people I care about than I can to the world. It will be more meaningful too.
I once worked with a guy who had been married 5 times. His attitude was that he wasn’t going to get bent out of shape over a woman. “They make more every day.”
Mom would get frustrated with stupid people. She would say, “los hacen de montón “. That means, “they make them in bunches.”
Tangentially, I came to realize there’s not enough of me to go around. Most people don’t care. Many won’t change their minds. Many already agree. But, there’s a handful of people who can use a friend, a kind word, or even a friendly kick in the pants to get them going in the right direction. It’s just my focus that has changed. It’s more fulfilling.
this was a round about article, easy to read and somewhat confusing to my uneducated mind.
Hence the upvote.
you anarchist you.
Thanks for the response; like the finger-wagging baby a lot :-)
OK so I credit Peterson with opening my eyes to fallacies in general, I can't fault him there. But I believe any failings of true socialism have happened because anti-socialism factors have been very much in play. Especially from the US, with the sanctions and the undermining and the not minding our own business. No socialist country could possibly succeed with the US, and other world powers, making sure that they do not. It's all one unfortunately. And Peterson has done a lot of good in the world, despite his failings, if only to have opened my mind to possibilities I had never considered before.
No doubt that's true, and I congratulate anyone who was able to dig themselves out of a personal hell-hole with Jordan's help. He is however one of the many gateways to unhealthy far right fascistoid ideologies and as such poses a severe threat to freedom and progression. In my opinion the scale tips to the side of the latter, that's all.
He considers himself to be a liberal I believe. So do I, but I appreciate much of conservative thought for the nuances it brings to my more liberal views. He is most definitely not far right, or fascist. I haven't read or watched much of his, but as I said, he opened my eyes to the rigidity of my ideas. Seems to me we could all do with a bit of challenging of our idealistic thought right now.
And so does Dave Rubin and a lot more "classical liberals" and "neoliberals"... I could rest my case here. Liberalism is based on liberty and equality under the law, so how come there's almost no liberal in sight fighting for these principles? Why do almost all of them, Peterson in particular, advocate for a strict hierarchy (the opposite of liberty) and why do they fight against progressives who actually try to correct the inequities so evidently present under the current socioeconomic paradigm? I really don't care what people call themselves; if Peterson has so many far right white nationalists in his follower-base (which he does), can't he see the obvious, which is that whatever he thinks he advocates for, in the end he's just another conservative not much different from the whole PragerU, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin etc. crew? He's intelligent enough to know that...
I have done this in the past.
I don’t disagree that Peterson may be committing a logical fallacy. However, experience has taught me to distrust sound bites and pieced together videos. They are often misleading and lacking in context that would explain why a conversation took that turn. It is common to take people out of context to prove a point using their own words to mean something different or contrary.
I’d be more likely to agree if I watched the full interviews to see what came prior and after the assertions.
And rightfully so; always inform yourself about people's convictions before blindly accepting the opinions expressed in these pieced together videos. However, I've seen hour after hour of Jordan's speeches, interviews and debates; the man is an inexcusable hack and grifter. His entire claim to fame, the ill-based criticism of the C-19 addendum to the Canadian Human Rights Act was a blatant lie to begin with...
I've watched many of the same videos and have come to see that he is often attacked by taking pieces of what he said or wrote in his book and twisting it to say something grotesquely different.
For example, the lobsters. His claim is that there is biological evidence that evolution has ingrained hierarchy in creatures further down the evolutionary ladder. It is reasonable to expect that people might have some of that ingrained hierarchical tendency too.
Interviewer: You're saying people aren't any smarter than lobsters?
Peterson: I said no such thing. blah blah blah
That's how most of his interviews go.
I do admit that I don't watch his (or most videos) with a logic filter in place. I took logic many years ago and am unpracticed in the art. It only led me to frustration and disappointment as the world generally operates on ego and confirmation bias.
However, I have learned not to take things at face value. I've been burned too many times by accepting what other people tell me without confirming. I've also burned myself several times by jumping to conclusions without verifying what I thought I saw.
Life is less frustrating and requires eating less crow. I haven't much fight left in me. I'm outnumbered and can't even count on what I thought I knew.
I really appreciate you responding in such a clear and honest way my friend :-) And I'm sorry that you seem to be kind of lost when you say:
Don't get me wrong, this is not to diminish or denigrate yourself or your opinions in any way. It just saddens me to hear people are increasingly derailed by the nihilism, fake news and disinformation so prevalent in our age, and indeed don't know what or who to believe anymore. I myself have those spells as well, and as a real life Marxist / communist / socialist I know what it means to be outnumbered...
All I can say is I hope you find a way for yourself to hang on and not give up, whatever your convictions.
Stay well!
No, don’t worry about me. I really am happier. It’s the whole business of having the courage to change the things I can, accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I suppose it could be mistaken for nihilism not having fight left. It’s more along the lines of not fighting everything. There are things in my life that I can influence directly with some gumption and passion. I can make a bigger difference in my community and to the people I care about than I can to the world. It will be more meaningful too.
I once worked with a guy who had been married 5 times. His attitude was that he wasn’t going to get bent out of shape over a woman. “They make more every day.”
Mom would get frustrated with stupid people. She would say, “los hacen de montón “. That means, “they make them in bunches.”
Tangentially, I came to realize there’s not enough of me to go around. Most people don’t care. Many won’t change their minds. Many already agree. But, there’s a handful of people who can use a friend, a kind word, or even a friendly kick in the pants to get them going in the right direction. It’s just my focus that has changed. It’s more fulfilling.
That's a beautiful attitude you display here, I respect that a bunch. And I'm glad pessimistic little me had it all wrong :-)