With some friends tonight, we were briefly discussing some cultural identity issues, where for example the Romani people in Finland have a pretty bad reputation for being thieves and a fair amount of violence. However, this isn't a genetic trait for them, it is through their habits, their cultural behaviours, and their socialisation. I have some friends with Romani background who weren't raised in the culture, and they are good people. Yet, I have had enough dealings with people who were raised in the culture, to know to be very wary of doing any type of trade with them. I find that sad.
But at the same time, a reputation is generally earned through experience, and while there can be a lot of bigotry involved, if the Romani people objectively reflected on their behaviours, they would quickly see why the generalised reputation exists. But people aren't very good at objective self-reflection.
As an example of this, I brought up something I read the other day where Paris Hilton believes that she is self-made. And even if we give her some leeway in the later years, in what world can she possibly consider herself self-made when the thing that made her famous, was only famous because of the family she comes from. Plenty of women have made sextapes and not become famous. If she wasn't a Hilton heir, would anyone have cared? Kim Kardashian goes into that same category, for she is a Kardashian - and she was Paris Hilton's personal assistant.
Accidental sextape....
But this isn't about the Romani people or rich girls making sextapes, it is just how depending on our surroundings, we become blind to certain aspects of life. Most people would say plenty of things like "I would never be a terrorist" without considering if that is true if they had been raised in a radicalised family and social surrounding. Similarly, people will claim all kinds of various virtues without recognising that the only reason that they can hold those kinds of opinions, is because of their environment.
And this goes for negative traits too.
Everyone loves a rags to riches story, but the fact is that most people born into rags, will die in rags. Very, very few will make it into the riches categories. Similarly, if a person is born into a family that sits in front of the TV eating microwave dinners and junk food, they are unlikely to become a renowned athlete with peak physical fitness.
Our surroundings shape us, and provide us opportunity to learn, including things we might not want to learn. And while this happens to us as individuals, we don't seem to do a very good job of recognising that other people are shaped by their various backgrounds too, from family, culture, friends and whatever else. Yet, while we are blind to ourselves, we are very aware of all the differences in others. Especially the ones that we don't like.
If you want to be respected by others, act in a way that they respect.
It is funny today, because people say they don't care what others think of them, but expect to be accepted by the same people. It is nonsensical. Similarly, they demand respect, even if they act in ways that are not worthy of respect by those they are making demands from. If you want respect from me, it is pretty easy. Treat people well and put in some effort to make the world a better place. If you want to lose my respect. Be a dick. It doesn't matter what the reason is,
Acting like a dick, makes you a dick.
We are all dicks sometimes, where for whatever reason we are unable to control ourselves, we might be angry or getting frustrated. But, for more and more people these days, dickish behaviour s the baseline, yet the same people still expect to be treated as if they are not dicks. And what I find is that a lot of cultural behaviours that people expect to be accepted because it is "culture" is actually pretty dickish behaviour - Like having dress codes, or treating some people or groups as inferior, or harming children, or telling people who they are allowed to love.
Rules by dicks, for dicks.
And there are plenty more.
Let's say there was one overarching rule, a super rule, and that is
to maximise human wellbeing.
If all the subrules have to serve the core tenet, how many of those rules should limit one person so that another person doesn't feel something negative? If it is culturally acceptable to cover women up from head to toe so as not to tempt men, is that a rule that serves the maximisation of human wellbeing? Or should the rule be that all people have to control their emotions and behaviours so as not to encroach on the generally accepted freedoms of others.
Men and women should be treated equally, but not the same.
If I go into the doctor with a problem, I don't want them to waste time and resources looking for a womb I do not have. And I am pretty sure my wife doesn't want her gynaecologist spending time looking for testicles. Being treated equally, is doing what is right for the individual. But the problem comes because a lot of what we consider "fair treatment" is actually cultural opinion that is by the very nature of it, unfair. Culture is exclusionary. And it is even more so when people go on about cultural appropriation bullshit, like how someone can or can't wear their hair, or what music they can or can't listen to. Because if cultural appropriation is a problem, then how are all the women born into cultures that oppress women, able to change their outcomes? They are oppressed by culture, and they are not allowed to "appropriate" any other culture? And those that oppress them must stick to their cultural programming too - fight for it even, right?
That is fucking inappropriate.
But you see? If we don't accept that culture can change, because people can and will change, then we are going to keep promoting the maintenance and even strengthening of all the negatives of culture too. But, if we accept that people change and therefore culture changes, we are able to take on the best parts of what we like from any culture, and promote the best. The kinds of customs and behaviours that are worthy of promotion. The ones that empower people to be their best, and to maximise their wellbeing.
I am yet to come across a healthy culture.
That sounds like a bold statement, but it is not, as it should be pretty bloody obvious to everyone with half a brain - which is about all I have. There is no healthy culture in the way people talk about culture, because a culture is a group of collective behaviours that were designed for a specific set of conditions over time. And over time, those conditions change, so the culture changes. Yet, what people seem to hold onto in culture are things that have often become irrelevant, just so that they can identify themselves as something different from the rest of the group. This means that the cultural trait is no longer practical, but ideological, and divorced from the reality of the current conditions.
Living as if the conditions of the past, are the same as the present.
You might say you love your culture, but I posit that if you were actually to look at it objectively, you would find a whole lot of things you would happily let go of and a whole lot of things that were not part of the culture originally. And what that means is, the thing you consider "your culture" is not actually what you act it is. It is something that is always changing and should always change because the conditions we live in change. We are in a global world, influenced by thousands of people we have never met, millions of advertisements, billions of interactions daily - but we think we shouldn't change?
Does your culture have a bad reputation?
I think all cultures should have a bad reputation, if the behaviours are enacted blindly. Instead, we should be looking to build the conditions that support the behaviours that assist us in being our best, which means improving our current conditions. This means, a culture of constant improvement, where the conditions are improving, as are our cultural habits.
Don't be the best of a culture.
Always strive to be better.
Taraz
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In our part of the world, how often, rules are shaped less by wellbeing and more by power, feaar or the need to control. We wrap these rules in the covering of 'culture' or 'honour', but at the end of the day, they rarely serve human happiness. They serve the insecurities of those who make them.
If there really was one super rule, to maximise human wellbeing, so many of our cultural expectations would collapse instantly. In my part of the world, culture decides the women's dress-code and then, the patriarchal, even the women themselves, resides behind religious doctrine. Talk of equality? It is a shame here, even the Prime Minister of the country has the aducity to say, "Girls are not following the right code-of-conduct that is why they are getting rapd", or the dictator once said, " They (women) get rapd to get a visa for Canada (developed country)". What can one expect from a layman?
I have great love for my culture, but I believe, if there is something wrong then one should have the courage to accept the wrongness and try to change it. Recently, there was a surge of love for 'Hitler', why? Just because, he was anti-semitic. Whenever, we had the debate about the genocide or world politics, I always tried to convince them to hate the ideology of the person and not the whole. But, in the end, cultural nuances and emotionally retarded people wins because of popular support. I can guarantee that 90% of the folks here (my country) do not even know what devilish (why blame the devil thought) work he has done, but just because there is a narrative going on in his support, let's just follow the 'flock' blindly.
And yes, culture/society shapes us, and it is really hard to deconstruct the already constructed ideas. These ideas are just like the air we breathe, so familiar we rarely notice how deeply it shapes us.
In the end, I believe, a society becomes humane only when its rules are designed for humans, not for pride, control or tradition for tradition’s sake. If someone has utter love for ones culture, let there be no compulsion.
In every culture, there is light and there is shadow, it is humans who decide to which one to dominate.
Exactly.
Which speaks to the people who follow and support them. The majority are not intelligent, and 50% are less than average. But average doesn't mean "smart enough# either. We aren't very advanced as a species, but we can make some pretty clever tools.
Instead, culture is filled with obsessive compulsives.
I really dislike when people use culture as an excuse to act a certain way. Cultural beliefs have led to so much war and oppression, it's feckin crazy. I also think it's sad that so many follow their cultural beliefs when clearly they are causing harm.
And on top of it now people are tip toeing around, afraid to speak out in case they are labelled a certain way. Crazy times.
Coming from Ireland, we do have a bit of a reputation as being heavy drinkers, I don't really drink myself, but there really are more pubs in a town than shops. ( well most towns).
Yeah here's to striving to be better.
And then in the next breath, are talking about equality...
If living in Finland, the Irish would fit right in ;)
It reminds me of where I grew up in Australia. The town was about 150 years old, and had 6 almost 150 year old pubs in the only street. :D
I live by, do all that you could with the day.
Of course our surroundings or environment helps shape our behaviors. More especially our interactions with people. But not many people realise this. So they leave themselves to negative influences from the environment that makes them develop negative traits.
Parents who have kids to raise need to understand this and shield their kids from any negative influence that might inculcate bad behaviors in them.
An interesting thought here: Could it be that the violence and thievery the Romani people in Finland display is a genetic trait and the environment enhanced it and those Romani friends you have, have the same deviant traits, but the environment they were raised in suppressed it?
That would mean that a genetic trait can be there and would need to be triggered or suppressed by environmental influences?
I think I am kind of lucky to be as uncultured as I am. It has meant at least that I tend to treat people of all kinds pretty well, judging the person, rather than their culture. However, a lot of the cultural generalisations exist for a reason too.
Possible, but I don't think it is the case. More likely, if anyone was raised in that particular set of situations, they would be similar. And similarly, anyone raised in a different set would be different. My Romani friends are more like my other friends, because they have been raised similarly. And, there are people who are not Romani but spend a lot of time with them, and end up similar to them.
We are what we eat.
I'm not sure if self-reflection of the Romani people would actually change things. I imagine they are denied opportunities all the time because they have such dramatically different lifestyles to the locals.
I'm of the mindset that people (with very few exceptions) don't want to break the law or hurt others, but get forced into it when no other opportunities are available. Data shows again and again that poverty levels are the biggest cause of crime... and I imagine that if the Romani people could earn good money and sustain their nomadic lifestyle that reputation would disappear.
That's assuming that there is any data that proves that Romani people are involved in more crime than locals anyway. I personally think that gossip and rumours have a much bigger impact on reputation than behavior; and who profits from giving the Romani people a bad name? Politicians, traders, religious leaders and police chiefs to name a few.
They are locals. Born and raised locally.
These aren't the "nomads" you see in movies. These aren't the parkies from Snatch. These are people who live locally, some work, but most don't. They aren't necessarily poor either, but the way they spend their money is different to others. They have many opportunities to do different, but many don't.
I used to think much like you on these things, but I have also watched these particular people closely over the years and had several direct experiences with them too. They have a reputation for a reason and the culture is not a healthy one, with a massive amount of domestic violence.
It really is sad. The ones I know who are not in the culture (some never in, some got out) are not very forgiving on their "own people".
I believe that people can always choose regardless of their environment. Of course, the environment always influences, and most of the time it is difficult to change all the habits that one brings from there, especially if they are the negative aspects. Despite I think that in general,people have no cure, I also understand that there are exceptions out there. I'm sorry, to be so unoptimistic
Most people's intuition says the same, but it isn't quite the full story. If we someone is conditioned to feel and behave a certain way, making the choice is not very easy and even if the choice is made, changing the behaviour is even harder. So many of us carry so much baggage, and a lot of us think that baggage is good to carry...
There are few still alive more pessimistic than me :)
Some people's tendency to steal is not genetic but they get it from the society they grow up in. There is a village near us where the maximum number of people are thieves. Even whenever there is a theft or robbery incident, people from that village are involved but not everyone there is a thief. Especially those who live outside that village grow up fairly well but 90 percent of the people living in that village were involved in the profession of theft. I really liked another thing you said. If we want to get respect then we must create such an environment that people are obliged to give respect. Respect has to be earned, it does not come automatically.
Well, I am half Russian and half Ukrainian, similar cultures. Russian culture has a really bad reputation right now and in the past. Just look at the Hollywood movies, in almost every movie from the last 40 years the bad guys are Russians :)
Both me and my wife pretty much shed out cultures and became American with small remnants of the Russian/Ukrainian/Kazakhstan cultural influences.
I think culture definitely needs to be fluid. You can repeat your culture without going overboard. There are likely many pieces of each culture that if taken at its purest form are pretty bad. Honestly though, I can't really say Americans have a single culture since we pull so much from everywhere else.
I thinl that our backgrounds play a huge role in shaping who we are, thus it is important to treat others with understanding instead of making quick judgments.
I guess understanding cultural differences is crucial in today's interconnected world. It can lead to surprising variations, for instance in language. However, by embracing differences, we can foster strong relationships and collaboration.