I was reading an article and then did a little more reading on Chinese "Fat Prisons" where people can sign up to be locked away for two to four weeks, spending four hours a day in exercise classes, being fed controlled diets, and not being able to leave - for about 1000 dollars. Damn - that is a cheap, all-inclusive holiday!! I am considering it.
It sounds awesome.
Okay, I am not seriously considering it in the sense that I will go, but given the opportunity, I would. Rather, I am considering it because perhaps it is not such bad idea to have these kinds of places available for those who want to do something about their weight, or other issues they might have.
In the US:
- 74% are considered overweight
- 40% are considered obese
- 10% are considered severely obese
Put all of the problems with using BMI calculations aside, because unless everyone in the US is walking around with bulging muscles, it is likely that the room for error still leaves a lot of fat people. I am not fat-shaming here, because I want to lose fat myself, as I struggle with eating too much "good food" with the irony being that it is not good for me at all.
However, I think that all the money spent on military or even health issues like Covid, would be better used tackling daily health issues, like obesity. Instead of sending troops into cities to round up illegal immigrants, there should be an army of nutritionists, personal trainers, and mental health experts working on the ground within local communities, improving health outcomes at all levels - physical, mental, and social. Mental health includes emotional health.
As I have mentioned before, I think it would be beneficial for society if neighbourhoods had "health centres" that work directly with preventative healthcare, rather than treating symptoms. Nutritionists and trainers could be assigned a neighbourhood and families to visit regularly, evaluate personally and work with to create tailormade packages and support positive change, free of charge. These professionals would change the approach (or change the professional) depending on the customer, where a young family would get a different support process than an elderly couple, or someone living alone.
In the US, only 3% of healthcare expenditure is spent on preventative healthcare. Finland spends over double that, and it is still not enough. The cost of acute healthcare is enormous and is only getting larger, as people get unhealthier on average. What this means is that the flow increases, taking up more resources, so that preventative measures are less likely to get funding and attention. It all goes to the acute problems of now, rather than dealing with upstream problems that would reduce the flow and decrease the pressure on acute treatment.
While Fat Prisons might be one small way to tackle the issues we have created today, what we should be aiming toward is not requiring prison of any sort in the future. That means reducing the flow of people who require "incarceration" - even if they are locking themselves up voluntarily.
Using the term "prison" is also somewhat problematic for many perhaps, because it assumes that the person has done something wrong. And technically, yes, they have done something wrong for their health, but it might be more of an "entrapment" situation, where they have been conditioned and primed by upbringing, culture and society to have the outcomes they have. This isn't to shift blame from the individual to create an excuse though, rather that individuals need to acknowledge the "trauma of their past" and do something about it in the present, so they can stop living a traumatised life.
Trauma is almost universal in prisons, with estimations based on studies that it could be as high as 97% of those incarcerated having experienced past trauma, with most experiencing what is called "Adverse Childhood Experiences" (ACEs) like abuse, neglect, or witnessing violence. Not only that, it is estimated that over 75% of substance abusers have experienced psychological trauma. .
If we look at factors leading to obesity from the same perspective as crime or substance use, rather than looking at it as a personal problem, it becomes a societal problem. Locking people up isn't going to help, if society keeps traumatising children to lead them into the conditions requiring incarceration. Treating fat people today is good, but what we should be doing as a society is slowing down the flow of fat people tomorrow.
Is this a keystone situation?
A keystone is the large stone at the top of the arch that puts pressure on all the other stones to keep the arch from collapsing inward. In terms of a keystone habit, it is one that when performed puts pressure on other habits to have a knock-on effect, improving (or degrading) other aspects. For instance, consistent exercise is a keystone habit that affects things like diet and work ethic, which also has effects on things like attitude and emotional wellbeing.
I suspect that if as a society we were to focus on something like obesity as a problem to tackle directly, in so doing we would also improve many other aspects of our collective lives, including mental health outcomes. This is because the process to improve physical health, tends to have positive effects on mental health (including emotional) and social health too. And no, it isn't creating a society of people who are hellbent on getting a sixpack, because that doesn't mean healthy either, which is why Ozempic and similar aren't going to improve people's mental wellbeing and if anything, might make many people worse off than when they had extra weight. It is another symptom approach, rather than dealing with causes.
To be healthy as a society, the approach needs to be holistic in nature, meaning that all contributing factors need to be considered and dealt with, rather than just treating the symptom. For instance in my case, I require a lot of willpower not to eat certain foods, and this becomes easier when I am exercising consistently, because it affects my feelings about what I am doing and eating. However, what I should be working on is understanding why I have the issue in the first place, and then finding ways to disconnect the circuitry so that I am no longer a victim of my own past wiring.
I suspect that for me, it has to do with trauma in my own childhood, where I was forced to look after myself from a young age in many ways, and make my own decisions. My life wasn't rosy, so "sweet food" become one of the few "feel good" highlights in my life. Something I could rely on to provide a temporary escape from the reality of my existence. However, while this was controlled in childhood through access and affordability, as I got older the access shackles came off, and even though not in the same life conditions, eating sweets became a habit for escape and reward.
I am imprisoned.
Our habits imprison us all. We are products of what we have experienced, but also products of what we continually do. Each action is a vote as to what kind of person we are going to be in the next moment, and most of our actions are default, thoughtless, conditioned behaviours that feel like they are part of us, even though they are learned. We are then forced to suffer ourselves, as we create a reality that we never intended and don't want to live.
I suspect that very few people aim to become fat. just like very few people intend to become a criminal, or a drug addict. It happens through a process of many steps that go all the way back to childhood, and conditions and situations that we never got to choose, but were subjected to. These then lead into the next set of conditions and the next, shaping our beliefs, our behaviours, and our feelings to drive our behaviours.
For me at least, it is strange to think that when I go to the fridge, I have to make a conscious decision to eat healthily, even though I intend and want to have the outcomes of healthy eating. Yet, I don't have to convince myself to eat junk food, I have to talk my way out of it. It is an ethical dilemma, isn't it? And I assume I am not alone in this, where at least statistically speaking, a high percentage of people reading are overweight themselves, and I assume that very few aimed to be overweight prior to becoming it. That means that no matter whether they accept themselves as overweight today, it happened through an unintentional process. And yes, while they might be happy now as overweight, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been happy if they had never got overweight in the first place.
I don't think there are many people who enjoy being in prison, or being an addict, or being obese. I don't think there are many people who like the feeling of not being able to control their own behaviours in areas they want to change. I don't think there are many people who are happy with having the symptoms of an unhealthy life, even if it wasn't their initial fault.
I think most people want to be healthier than they are.
So, if this is the case and people do indeed want to have better health outcomes, shouldn't this be where we direct a lot of our attention and resources as a society? Shouldn't we demand that the mechanisms that create our environment start making the changes necessary to improve our health outcomes? Wouldn't we want the tax money we spend to make our lives healthier, rather than corporations wealthier?
You'd think.
But we don't think or act.
So we remain in prisons of our own making.
Taraz
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I don't live in the US so can't speak for it, but as for having better health (weight/fitness)...I see it as a choice the individual has completely and totally within their control.
I mean, sure the government should be regulating some of the main corporate offenders and what they put in their food, but instead of going to McDonalds, a fat cunt could go to Woolworths and get a pre-made healthy option from the fresh produce department. It's easy, I mean I do it so it must be quite simplistic.
Just my super simplistic thinking here. A bit of discipline and ownership goes a long way.
A lot of research around weight management suggests that it has more to do with internal system regulation - interaction between hormones for example - than with willpower. So more to do with understanding how internal systems work and working with them to improve regulation and less about external willed control. I agree, though, you have to be engaged and wanting a change, so I guess to that extent will is involved.
Willpower is fickle, especially today. If tired and depressed, what are the chances of having enough willpower? Not impossible, but very hard. It is better to set the environment up for health, so that willpower is not needed.
👍
I'm not a scientist, just a dude who makes healthy eating and exercising choices because my life depends on it, like everyone's does.
Those that want to eat shit food will get shit results from it. Those who want to lead sedentary lives will find that they'll have to pay the boatman probably much early than they would like. (Die)
If people want to do that then ok, they'll pay for it ultimately. I think I'd rather have ownership, discipline and responsibility.
Yes and no perhaps. Yes because we all have responsibility for our actions. No because depending on conditioning and availability, the hurdles might be too great to overcome.
Would you say no to having a personal trainer and nutritionist visit once a month for free?
Well, if a person is a fat bastard and makes the choice to go to McDonalds which is widely advertised as unhealthy they're designing their own demise. Good on them, too many cunts on the planet as it is. Best they check out.
Anyway, not everything can be free, that's a fact. It's a great concept but even freedom comes with a cost. So, some more ownership and discipline would go a long way, responsibility too. Celery. Cucumbers. Cheese. Wholegrain bread, lettuce, roast chicken, non-seed oils...I could buy two days worth of that for what one easily purchased McDonalds or KFC meal delivered to my door costs. I don't eat that crap though. That's my choice.
Also, opening the fridge and having to make a choice between good and bad becomes easy when there's no bad in there.
You have such a way with words.., no fucking around.., just out with it! 😀..
Thanks, I'm somewhat (way) more diplomatic in my job and general real life but here I add an element of rawness because it's a place so sanitised by users looking only to earn a few cents and not to rock the boat in any way, float through the middle. I see that as a negative that has the tendency to make it somewhat bland.
So, I add some personality - might not suit everyone's taste and that's ok - and walk away from my effort feeling like I've done the right thing.
More than once.. this approach has made me laugh, and that's good for me, and everyone else. I have to be more diplomatic at work, though in the past I have been told to leave or be fired due to my bluntness, as well as frog-marched out of another.
I don't regret what I did, it led to greater things in my life, in both instances.
There's too much beating around the bush, circumlocution, with people trying not to offend anyone else but it's so hard not to due to their being a lot of snowflake, fragile little bitchaz and so many things people seem as worthy of getting offended about.
I just want to see people on Hive be their true self, not some fake asshole just to harvest a few cents. In real life too, give it to me straight, not some waterered down, sanitised shite.
As for work ending in redundancy or walked out, yeah it's often a bad feeling initially but later it seems usually to feel like the best thing ever. Sometimes people get so entrenched in their situation they fail to see it's not the best one and there's better elsewhere.
Maybe, but the problem is they live almost as long as healthy people - just at far more cost to society.
That's true. Remember the sci-fi Logan's Run? Mandatory end of life at 21 I think it was.
Hmm...
I don't remember it, but was talking to someone the other day about how life ending at 70 might not be too bad. Very little brain issues, and still physically fit enough to be of use.
A good book and decent movie, old as the hills though.
Ultimately, it always comes down to time and money. Okay, time, money, and motivation. The health provider that I have has a nutritionist on staff and my wife has met with them before. They basically told her they wished that all of their clients ate the way she does. Since I pretty much eat the same stuff as her, I didn't really feel I needed to go when they offered it to me. We have decent health insurance though and not everyone does, so services like that aren't as accessible to them. As I said, time is a huge factor too. If people weren't working multiple jobs just to get by, they would likely have more time to spend getting in shape. Whether they would or not is a different story... I know I would. My wife would as well. She actually threw in another workout yesterday after she found out school was cancelled. It's hard because I think a lot of people who have the motivation to do it just don't have the time or money. Then those that do don't have the motivation.
And I think this also effects other aspects, like willpower and motivation. As said, the system is broken, not just at one point, but at many. We have set up an environment that creates unhealthy people, but we keep treating symptoms of ill-health, rather than raising conditions that promote health.
Yes, what's the outcomes of the fat prisons, including longitudinal outcomes over five years? Unless that regime helps people develop sustainable lifestyle habits that they take with them, and sustainable habits are those that are good enough rather than perfect, they might just as well send their 1,000 dollars to me.
One of those sustainable habits is changing your environment: stock your fridge and pantry with only healthy food and lose the cognitive overload you have every time you open the fridge. That's ten dollars, please 😁
I'd spend it on chocolate.
This is what I try to do. I have two people in the house that don't have the same issue as me though :D
I should live alone.
I think there may other health consequences of living alone 🙂.
But I understand what you're saying, it's not easy when there are others around.
I reckon Puusti will have the greatest impact healthwise 😁.
Instead of just addressing the symptoms, why not focus on preventative strategies that can really have an impact? I think this was a topic in my country last year.
Did anything change?
If only it becomes mandotary
I think this plays bigger role in deciding what a person wants. The other factor could be "self-realization". If a person could well take care of everything, like finances, their vehicles, their relationships then taking out time for health is not a big deal. People need to realize and power it strongly to achieve good result.
Will power is a hard one, because some have more than others, and it is affected by many other factors, like tiredness and mood. If our general condition and environment leaves us tired and depressed, our willpower is also likely to be very low.
That sounds like reverse idea of gamblers and alcoholics who asks not to be let in a casino/ bar:
I think it is pretty easy to lose weight or stop smoking - just be locked away somewhere there is no access.
It is true that many people want to be fat, and even I tried my best to be fat at one time. But now I think that I need a healthy body rather than being fat. For that, of course, healthy food is needed. That is why every region of the world should emphasize on producing healthy food.
You tried to be fat?
At one time, I thought that drinking soft drinks would make me fat and sometimes I would eat junk food along with fatty foods to gain weight. But later I moved away from these and came to know their harmfulness.
I do not know about over there, but here it is more expensive to buy healthy food at the grocery store than processed shit food. It is also comes down to this fast paced want it now society where they lack the patience and sometimes know-how to make their own meal. So they nuke something instead. Of course the stuff you nuke is most times not good for you at all.
That said, I am considered fat, and will take ownership of it even though some if it was created by treatment with high dose steroids, but most was me not pushing away from the table when the time came to do so and excuses for not exercising. Luckily I have taken ownership of this again and losing and getting what health I can attain back.
Cost is a factor sometimes, but what's the cost of not finding more healthy ways? Quite probably an early death.
A person with no discipline will not show discipline and a person without the right "why" will not take the right actions.
My ethos is to have and do both as often as I can and to own the results one way or the other. Fortunately, the right actions and discipline mean I'm usually very happy with the results.
It costs nothing to walk. It costs nothing to do some calisthenics. It costs nothing to do a chair routine and lift some weight, take the stairs, part farther from the door of the mall and so on. I'd say, for those not doing that, there's a good start.
A big Mac meal here costs $18 and has about 200g of carbs in it. A pre-made salad pack from the supermarket complete with a dressing plus a bottle of water costs about $9 to $10. - carbs, maybe 18-22g including the dressing.
Carbs required daily? No more than about 200-220 across the entire day.
Seems a cheaper option to eat the salad to me and infinitely more healthy.
I think the biggest factor is not cost but laziness, ease of use, the inability to say no to what we find as enjoyable to eat and our bad habits, comfort eating and so on. Lack of discipline, effort, a solid "why", ownership and honesty about the path forward, planning and responsibility to self and family.
Don't disagree with you at all. It also costs more in health care as well before you kick the bucket. Either out of personal funds or taxpayer dollars.
Again, no disagreement. In fact there are many programs available out there that are free that people can take advantage of that provide group functions for support and coaching even.
For me, it was just a matter of regaining my discipline to saying no to food when I didn't need it. Especially shit food like pizza and cheeseburgers. Shopping more sharply. The discipline to get up from behind the desk and computer and start walking when my body allowed along with other exercises and stuff throughout the week.
It can be done!
With you I get it, totally, I was speaking generally of course. Knowing some of your background as I do, it can't be said that you don't know what discipline is or how to use it and I understand the issues around redeploying it. Th benefits though, or making it happen...life.
I find that starting small is the way to go, make a single choice to say no to something in preference to a better option then take a 20 walk the same day. Strong little things together and they start to touch at the sides and become larger.
The definition of a great year is simply 365 great days in a row and great days start with one small thing that's positive, willfully done and then replicated.
That’s it and that’s all it takes. Glad I started already last year and bringing it into the new year. One foot in front of the other!
You've made some big steps forward which speaks highly of your quality as a person. Keep it up.
These fat prisons exist because it is really hard to maintain discipline to eat healthy and excercise.
I don't have a problem getting enough excercise, but not eating sugar and good food is a real challenge even for someone as disciplined as me.
I have halved my sugar intake in the last week and I dropped gradually over six pounds. But still at 6' 1" and 214 pounds I don't see my six pack at all like I used to despite the bulging muscles as you say...
Need to drop another 14 pounds of fat. So I am gradually going to reduce my sugar as right now I have tea 3-4 times a day with 2-3 pieces of candy each time so that is at least 6 candy per day, need to half it again to 3 pieces per day.
Is 2-4 weeks long enough to make whatever they're doing in there a habit?
Diamond hard agree. Though seeing as squeaky wheels get the grease I think there's this delusion that preventative isn't important because there's no problems (and somehow a complete failure to connect the fact that there's no problem because it was PREVENTED from happening in the first place).
Is not having the problem foods in the house at all an option?
On your last paragraph I sometimes feel that a lot of people don't actually know what's needed for better health outcomes at an individual level never mind a societal one so they wouldn't know what to push for, and also even if they know the absolute bare bones basics of eat less move more that's way too much hard work and what a lot of people want is to enjoy all of the benefits with absolutely none of the work otherwise it's not worth their time (I don't understand).
Not sure hat the numbers are for preventieve healthcare costs in my country. Somewhere I was reading the increase in spending in preventive healthcare in 2024 over 2023 was 1%, while other healthcare costs increased between 5 and 12%. A figure for 2019 says we spend around 2% on preventive healthcare. Super low. Much of preventive healthcare is part of our base healthcare insurrance, which each citizen has, including the support to deal with being overweight. All voluntary. But I suspect not many make use of these facilities.
I do agree with youl not many chose to be overweight. I also agree with you - and I know from own experience - when in the process of reducing weight, one is more focussed and it becomes easier to not eat/drink the things that are not good for our weight. When I am in the zone, I combine intermittent fasting + law carbs. When starting a new cicle, and after the holidays Xmas NYE etc I NEED to start again a cicle (hoping it'll not be a cycle anymore, but continous way of living), that is for sure. I'm not looking forward to it, but I know I will feel better in a few weeks after start. Less belly fat means better movements are possible without, fewer barriers and all that. At the same time, I'll be getting more energy due to the low carbs. Two positives in one go! And all without the help of others, just my own mind. But I also know, it'll be a cycle again, since at some point in time I'll be going to start eating bread, which I love soooo much, and then the low carbs cycle is broken and with that I also break the intermittent fasting cycle since carbs make hungry feeling, much more than protein.
Sometimes I wonder how to help others, encourage others to try the same as I do. Or something different, but at least to do something. Normally I talk about the energy part, but so far I don't think I got people IRL to try. Most arguments I hear is: I cannot live without my cookie, my bread, my chocolate with my coffee. Perhaps we have to make things a bit less voluntary. Perhaps a month or two state enforced training is required, like we used to have forced military training for all men. Though I am against force, I do know when experiencing the positives of lower body weight by removing the bad fat, we will be more positive overall. The results is something nobody will hate, but will love. Tough 'problem' we are dealing with for sure.
Thanks