The main thing I want to point out, amongst all the other things you got wrong, is you have the wrong attitude on powerdowns.
IF you are for more decentralization you would advocate whales power down and sell so that the resources are spread out.
Might you be confused on the concept and thats why you would criticize Kenny for powering down and selling?
Optimal conditions for decentralized proof of stake:
Does not need whales to function, ever.
Does not want whales, ever.
Wants staked resources spread out to as many people as possible to further decentralize.
Wants whales and early holders of large stake to sell so their large power hold over the entire chain as is eventually gone(75/25 rewards actually did that). Whales are a centralizing force, that control large amounts of power, all whales with excess staked resources are a potential threat vector to decentralization(block trades can unilaterally unvote top witnesses and drop them from top 20 right now, assuming nobody else counters with voting for said witnesses).
I wont touch the other parts, just find it curious people want whales to be forever leaders, for some reason you "seem" to believe might = right and like a small amount of whales having power to assert their views.
Yes and no. I sold a large part of the stake I once had, and then bought more using outside investment in the past couple of years. The current value of post rewards paid out is about $30 million per year. Without people buying in, with an inflationary system where people earn rewards that are often sold to cash out, the value of HIVE (and reward payouts) would crash, and no one would be happy.
Yes it is conceivably possible, without whales, to have a large number of small investors, say a million new investors per year each putting in $30 each, but I don't see that Hive or Steem has ever been successful in attracting that level of participation.
Would you be open to sell more? In your view on who is still a whale, what does Hive look like in 5 years?
I want to see a ton of smaller accounts with power using thier votes instead of 1 person with a lot of stake.
Vitalik has a great critique on DPOS and how POS is way better. I'm in the POS camp mostly, ethereum POS will be a huge step towards system wide decentralization at the whale or minnow level
I will probably sell again at some point. Right now I feel it is massively undevalued.
In any case, there is plenty of HIVE and HBD (which can be converted into HIVE) being sold from inflation/rewards every day. There is no shortage of HIVE to buy for new would-be stakeholders.
The only thing that it incentivized was self-votes and actually accelerated a lot of concentration of power for those who didn't sell. I guess short-term memories about Haejin and Traf is a thing.
If you want to get rid of your share in governance, then feel free to do so. Don't tell other people that they should give up theirs because you can't help but throwing yours out for a mess of pottage.
People don't necessarily want them for leaders, but you certainly don't help your position by throwing away your power while they opt to not do so.
Is when people prefer to hold than selling. Obviously, there's no incentive for the "average" Hiver to hold HP, thus they sell.
Bigger chains like ADA have over 70% of the circulating supply locked up in people's wallets whereas it's much less so on Hive. Ask yourself why.
75/25 bled out many whales overtime whereas 50/50 doesn't. Make an excel spreadsheet and compare it and you will see each year under 75 25 whales get diluted, 50 50 only does if they sell
There were a few examples of that that free downvotes already take care of now so, specific edge cases like haejin have been mostly dealt with now.
There is no defined technical spec you can point to that requires 20 people to hold over 50 percent of HP for Hive to function.
I do sometimes do that so I decentralize the chain further by allowing my small portion of liquid hive to be used by a new person powering up.
I can and will write what I want to, and advocate for what I want to. I'm not saying "tell" whales did x, I'm saying advocate they do. That's what witnesses and whales are, politicians wielding varying degrees of power, I'm sure you can appreciate people getting thier viice heard to thier representatives right? Who I vote as witness represents me after all, and who I dont vite for also does due to the power dynamics of hive governance.
Hive would be more decentralized without whales, we escaped Justin Sun but we clearly didnt learn our lesson if we r defending whales
And I bet you did meticulous digging to make sure they aren't voting on alts, etc. But hey, what do I know about various ways to game the system after all the years I've been here?
Witnesses don't have to represent your views. Advocating that is just one of your arbitrary, and personal, parameters.
They objectively secure the chain. That's it.
And funnily enough, there are plenty of people voting for @earn.hive because they are so desperately chasing that money.
Here's my criticism against the "truther" community on Hive:
In all the years of the "truthers" have wielded the massive free delegations from @jamesc and whale support from people like @xeldal, none of you could put together one product or service that entice people to funnel inflation/outside funds your way.
Nobody from the "truther" community was able to put something together like a Hive Engine. A cool community like LeoFinance. Or a valuable service like FRIDAY bot.
And you are blaming it on the "lack of decentralization"?
You willingly followed these "whales" into a new chain they forked. You didn't have to. There were other, much smaller voices, that tried to fork, but were all ignored. In fact, I remember @anthonyadavisii tried to make a fork, but was pretty much buried in the dust.
The reason: it's always about the rewards and the money. NO EXCEPTIONS. 99.5% that say it's not about them are dishonest, at best.
It's actually hilarious to read posts like this. It's like some of you guys would jump on the "Soros is bad" train, but fail to learn from how he managed to build up an empire and then gained influence to push out his propaganda. You don't have to be scummy like him, but the principles apply.
Instead of having something to offer, you guys did the exact same thing that we made fun of the so-called businesses on Hive/Steem back in the days. Your sole revenue stream and value proposition is THE REWARD POOL.
Your only product, if you could even call them that, is supposed pieces of "journalism". Okay, that's fine, but where are your sponsors? Why is it that the entire community subsists on the generosity of Hive natives? What happened to all the similar-minded folks outside of Hive? Last time I checked, Hive isn't the last bastion of their existence.
Imagine if Splinterlands based its business model solely on the reward pool. Imagine if LeoFinance only used the reward pool. They wouldn't be where they are today. Do you think @aggroed amassed his power from witness rewards alone? Do you think @khaleelkazi got where he is today by posting like a mad mofo?
Instead of wondering what you could do to push governance in your favor, I've only seen unproductive complaints.
It's absolutely hysterical to me that the last resort is to behave like the crypto versions of Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders.
At the end of the day, I'm tired of seeing stuff like this.
I think the point about people not bringing discernably more value to HIVE than from HIVE is a legit point. I just hope that we would try to be consistent in the application because even giving the hint of ideological or political motives works against one of the main selling points of Hive being censorship resistance. (Yes. I understand the content is not censored in a strictly technical sense.)
It is true we all have different views and preferences but we don't have to downvote things we disagree with ideologically nor do I think we should. If we want to win in the marketplace of ideas, one of the best ways to do that is civil discourse but not all ideas are able to be definitively settled. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't be points of contention today.
Wow bro this could be a great post. Lots of great points in here about building a product.
Also, I dont accept generalized copy and pasted critiques sent to me as valid if that is supposed to be about me.
Most people still think bitcoin is decentralized, it hasnt been for over 5 years(check out some posts I wrote this year detailing that).
Hive in it's current state is less vulnerable to a Justin Sun, but it still is unless switched to POS. DPOS has been thourlgy trashed for years and its flaws exposed by top minds like Vitalik.
Nobody in the space advocates for having more DPOS systems.
I know reading is not your strong point.
You need to stop worshipping personalities.
Good day.
I worship nothing. No gods and no humans.
I have 0 idea why you continue to put words in my mouth, especially when I believe in the opposite.
I am part of the "truther" movement, if you would simply look at what my name is and then read this https://www.gandhiashramsevagram.org/gandhi-articles/truth-about-truth-force.php that talks about the importance of people telling the truth peacefully.
You have some sort of pre-conceived notion of who I am, despite likely never reading any of my posts.
You do realize the people who created hive engine are truthers, right? Aggroed ausbitbank and some others have posted truther stuff for years... theycallmedan might label himself a truther also
Informationwar has been organic for over 4 years. No huge delegations and never really tried to grow it much.
I've been in crypto since 2014 and coding things here and there that arent on hive.
My major is comp sci with information systems.
I understand all of this at an extreme level and all I do is learn more each day about systems.
POS is superior
You are arguing with me and not correct on basic facts, that's fine, but please dont then go on to attack my character with a copy and pasted truther comment that largely doesnt apply to me at all. Throwing S at a wall until it sticks isnt a valid way of arguing if you want people to agree with you.
I'm always transparent and up for debating anything anywhere any time.
Specific criticisms always welcome
I can stand corrected on that point if that's how they label themselvs.
At the end of the day, I don't see them as proponents of your cause. Anyone can post anything you agree with it, but that doesn't mean they are your supporters.
No need to pull the OG bs on me. I've been in crypto technically since 2012. So what? Is that a badge of validation?
Just because I haven't said a thing to you for 4 years doesn't mean I haven't been silently watching the clown show play out.
And you can drop the ETH2 copy/pasta as if it had already happened. It's been in transit for years. I'll believe it when they ship it. Many other chains are already doing POS...LIVE.
The POS chain is live and people are staking in it, the transition will happen.
Specific criticism is always welcome, evaluated, and if action is warranted acted upon. Feel free to give me any feedback you have regarding @informationwar and I'll read it and think on it.
We need a product, criticisms are valid. Podcasting 2.0 integration by @brianoflondon is in the right vein. InformationWar brainstorming session?
Whales are not 'leaders' they are influential in managing the platform and that's a huge difference. They do not directly effect my behaviour.
As for my mentioning his powerdown, you're right. He can do whatever he wishes with his stake but its hypocritical to then turn round and criticise others for doing whatever they wish with theirs.
I try to come with an attitude of gratitude for what I have been given as opposed to whinging about what I don't have or even worse, jealous of what others have. Unless you wrote the code, you're always a guest at someone else's party and if you don't like the music, you either ask for some new tunes or you go find another party.
Whales who vote for witnesses are "forever leaders" as long as they have their stake, they are King Makers and that is actually more powerful in many ways than being a "leader" which is why I called it "forever leaders". They make the Kings that others have to follow(block chain rules/upgrades/updates/etc).
Exactly, while here I will advocate for a far better model, POS Ethereum will change the entire way people see decentralization, Justin Sun could not have done what he did on Steem, on Etheruem POS his stunt he pulled would have lost him all of his stake automatically.
Sounds way more centralized than on Hive, mate. It's pure POS, so the rich will literally just get richer. Here 15% goes to HP holders and 10% to witnesses while the majority goes to authors and curators, do you think the orcas and whales we have here today who most likely didn't buy in or use hardware to mine would exist on ETH? Not saying whales who hold their HP don't grow nicely alongside everyone else but anyone has a chance here earning their way up. Look at aggroed, marky, tarazkp, etc. Hell even I didn't buy any stake until after the 2018 bull run. None of that would've been possible on any other chain, going POS won't help that so it's really annoying when people bring these propositions in their arguments against Hive when there's literally no other blockchain out there offering the same opportunities to "non-whales".
I don't think you have ever read what Ethereum POS is, otherwise you wouldn't have responded this way. It's orders of magnitude more decentralized.
Validators also get ETH for validating(mining is removed and validators get the new ETH that comes into existence).
https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/consensus-mechanisms/pos/
In POS everyone gets the same amount of rewards because validators are chosen randomly for every block, unlike on Hive where the Top 20 get voted on by the rich and continually get richer. Witnesses below like the top 50 cannot break even on Hive, EVERY validator on Ethereum POS will and break even.
Tbf, if the barrier to entry is 32 ETH (over $120,000 USD), then I don't really see how that can enhance decentralisation.
You've got some reading to catch up on :)
There is also "pooled validators", where people can form their own pool and get others to put ETH into that pool, splitting the rewards.
So you could throw your .1 ETH into it(400 usd) and you will earn the % APR that goes with it(I think 15%).
There are over a hundred million Ethereum wallets, with the potential for millions of people to get into pooled validating.
Not to mention, there are tens of thousands of people with 32ETH + so that already right there is more decentralized than Hive's top 20 by a factor of 1,000x alone.
Oh for sure, yes, but I was referring to your comments about preferring that no whales are involved in Hive in order to maximise decentralisation. You would really need to be a whale or similar to invest the full 32ETH. If the actual cost is split down to fractions via pooling then maybe it's an irrelevant point.
I agree there is a real chance that ETH or other similar chains provide an environment where running an entire Hive-like chain is as simple as it currently is to create a layer 2 token on Hive Engine. Once transaction costs are lowered on the big networks it is only a logical progression for such dApps to emerge.
Chosen randomly? Isn't it depending on staked eth?
Not in Ethereum POS. Every block is randomly chosen.
The requirement is 32 ETH to be a validator, but there are also validator pools where anyone can put the amount of ETH they have into it and be a pooled validator also.
How does that change anything? People will just create multi 32 eth validators to get a higher chance at more blocks, pools would also create more and limit at 32 eth for each validator and have several low eth in each pool to increase their chances of getting a block reward which in turn is distributed depending on how much stake is in the pool so in the end the rich still just get richer. Or did they come up with a new innovation in that regard?
Stop using logical arguments for a decentralization and a wealth distribution project .
"..you're not the kind of droids that the large hive accounts are looking for..."
Small clubs who ethos is 'mooooar' , only want very obedient and non thinking droids - got it?
I am quite aware of that, however, the people reading my exchanges with others is who I am looking to convince of the merits of my arguments(not the particular person I am arguing with).
....this is my reasoning to, with mostly all the comments I make....
And by the way, I got confirmation from v4vapid that Deepdives is a go for Jan 2022.
@regenette why are you downvoting me? I see you are friendly towards lucylin, so am I...And also sympathetic with his issues and have upvoted him many times.
@lucylin any idea why hes dving me?
lololol...she downvoted me to !...you can't fix stupid...I'll let it sink in one day, and stop being such an optimist ! lolol
HEADLINES : Man supports free speech , and against down voting - even on account they disagree with.
The account being supported - downvotes !
....this is what happens when your IQ score, matches your age....