Why is true symbiosis extremely rare in the sphere of human cooperation? What informs this claim?
Because humans are basically selfish babies.
If I raise chickens and my neighbor raises pigs, we might agree to trade some number of eggs for some number of strips of bacon.
This is a nearly symbiotic (purely voluntary) relationship (as long as bacon and eggs are not considered necessities).
However, if a third neighbor also raises chickens and undercuts my bacon price, I have to pay more eggs to get my bacon.
The cooperation between neighbor 2 and neighbor 3 comes at "my expense".
Perhaps anarchy already exists and "THE COMMUNITY" is merely the highest manifestation of organized crime. – special thanks to @thoughts-in-time
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Your scathing critique is requested.
I think the key is that from time to time, a chicken farmer will have to change careers and do something that is in more demand, once the profit margin gets squeezed too thin.
Unless they get trapped under a mountain of legal debt.
Like this (free to watch, no sign-up),
https://tubitv.com/movies/519508/super_size_me_2_holy_chicken?start=true
I guess 16 hours is too long a turn-around time for watching videos. They have already taken this down.
https://tubitv.com/movies/519508/super_size_me_2_holy_chicken?start=true
This still works for me.
Try going to tubitv.com and seaching for "Holy Chicken".
Or you can see some clips here,
The key point is that the chicken farmers themselves are forced into long-term contracts because of collusion between the small number of chicken processors and distributors.
This collusion allows the processors to set the price, because if a farmer does something they don't like, they basically can't sell their chickens to anyone, and they know this, and so they will do whatever it takes to keep in the favor of their CORPORATE OVERLORDS.
The race to the bottom is so vicious I would witness sellers on Amazon unwittingly set their pricing software to undercut to the point they had to be losing money to control the buy box. There were even strategies developed by some sellers to test such software competitors were using to see if they had manually set a bottom. Some didn't, and found themselves selling their items to their competitors well below cost.
Surprisingly, there are customers who don't use price as their main factor when making purchasing decisions. I was taught not to participate in those races, and my mentors were correct that other factors such as reputation and service were more important to some segments.
I don't believe all humans are selfish babies, but do believe it is an instinct to be one. I believe that religions were invented to be a tool one could use to overcome the natural instinct of selfishness. As are national propaganda etc. Even many altruistic actions are performed for selfish reasons. Including the beginning relationship in your above scenario with the introduction of the barter between two. Each coveting variety and coming to agreement to fulfill those wants.
The question this has pushed at me for many years is how to devise system(s) capable of appealing to this trait while benefiting all involved. As mentioned, all nations to some extent do this, however the larger their influence grows the more corruption is cultivated until the beneficial ruler is now a petty dictator seeking as much sweat as possible.
A great conversation starter, unfortunately one that more often than not has unhappy endings. Seems the best one can do is implement to a degree selfless random kindness without expectation of benefit and that such behavior may spark others to do the same.
why always build systems which try to overcome humans nature?
why not finally build a system in which humans can use their own selfishness to help others - just live their own nature instead of changing it (from above)? just be a decentralized being instead of a forced part of a collective..
I'm for libertarian free market economies.
when there are finally free markets, without taxes and fake money.. there won't be any need for anyone to behave bad.
as you said, it's not just about the price - there are many more factors and bad behaving market participants will digg their own grave.. that's with nature, a whole ecosystem which regulates itself through all decentralized participants.
and in free markets good money is a product out of them, with good money everything is easier, so even prices wont be as big of a problem.
do you know the austrian school?
Can you give a few examples where this has been implemented and is flourishing? I've heard much about them over the years (I was a huge Dr. Paul fan), however I haven't ever seen one in action. I seem to recall Dr. Paul was an advocate of the Austrian school. I don't put much research into economics anymore though I will admit. I studied what we have in the US with the Federal Reserve and seems like the experts all try to make it sound super complicated when it doesn't have to be.
As for decentralization, I will admit I'm a sceptic that such a thing can exist outside of a theory. People will generally covet more, and those who don't mind utilizing violence will reach for more. This will always result in the majority seeking some sort of unified centrality to combat this. Which inevitably leads to the centralized machines being co-opted by those they were designed to protect the masses from.
african "system d"
all black markets and countereconomies..
Not sure that black markets qualify as a free market. They are created usually due to centralized forces targeting the goods with violence, which creates an artificial value on the goods as customers pay premiums to circumvent the central thugs. I often think much of what is illegal is made so to create these markets so the central powers can themselves profit immensely as they can move in and out of them at will without worry of being caught up in their own punishment systems.
Not familiar with african "system d" what is it?
sadly no - we're way too deep into devil's spiral right now.
there were true and good anarchy experiments, which also implemented useful economy.. but were struck down and brought "peace"
.. or regulated to economic death..
Do you know of HOLACRACY?
holacracy seem pretty centralized and therefore has central attack vectors.. would be a matter of time until it's undermined again..
(same what happened with western free market economy and democracy..)
Holacracy is a more-decentralized organizational framework that aims to empower each individual to effect change based on logical argument (CIVIL DEBATE).
There is no military FEUDAL HIERARCHY where the "leaders" can "force" their "underlings" to abide by their whim (like most modern CORPORATIONS).
It may not be "perfect", but it is dynamic, and has been successfully implemented in over 1000 companies so far.
Years ago I worked at a computer chip manufacturer who implemented a program called Zapp that sounds similar in nature. Only had one other job before that which had a similar structure. Actually enjoyed both jobs.
https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uploads/725d71134bb744a51b63e2bc9157e8f4_Zapp.pdf
Thanks for the link!
The Story: An Employee named Ralph developed a machine called the
Ralpholator which took him and his boss Joe to the 12th dimension where
they could see things they couldn’t normally see in their workplace like how
people feel, what’s going on in t heir minds, what it’s like for them on the
inside. Joe had no idea people were this unhappy by their work. Ralph
explained to his boss, Joe, that it was dark in the 12th dimension because all
of the light comes from within people and they were dim and dull. Some
employees had light, but it didn’t shine very far beyond themselves. Before
leaving the 12th dimension, Ralph took Joe to a different department in their
company Dept. Z. These people radiated energy that lit up the place. Some
were brighter than others, but the collective brilliance of all of them was like
a small, warm sun. Some worked alone, some in groups, but the light
connected them in a common purpose. They called Lucy the manager the
“wizard” and she ZAPPed people to help solve difficult problems – all they
needed was a ZAPP of lightning and they talked between each other with
their little flickers of lightning passing among them. Together, they could
do amazing things. **
what if participants don't care about logic?
just wanna follow their ideology?
Constitutional Holacracy has logic built into the framework itself.
It's designed from the ground-up to mitigate mob rule as well as preventing power accumulation by a single member.
Total cost of ownership and the expected supply of replacement parts are two key factors I try to keep in mind.
Also, the origin of goods.
Do you believe it's wrong for children to work like slaves and for farmers to work their land for $1 a day?
Well then, perhaps you shouldn't buy chocolate.
Do you believe it's wrong for prisoner's to be forced to work for next to no pay and for people to be coerced into working in sweat-shops?
Well then, perhaps you shouldn't buy products made in China.
Do you believe that CORPORATIONS are making a mockery of our system of government?
Well then, perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to give them all your money.
HOLACRACY FTW!
just become an egoist an you wont have problems :)
COOPERATION =/= RISK AVOIDANCE
RISK AVOIDANCE = COERCION
COERCION is COERCION whether it is EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT.
True cooperation "should be" based on mutual benefit (usually at a third party's expense).
However, both parties are rarely "equals" and if one side (or both) fears consequences (withholding of resources or violence) then they are being coerced.
The threat doesn't need to be stated plainly. Passive intimidation is the most effective form of persuasion.