This is a very interesting post. I have so much to say but i don't want to clog up your comments! hahaha (looks like i did anyways)
There really is so much to unpack here that I am not sure where to start. Being from the Deep South here in the Bible Belt of the States we have a long history with religion. When anyone asked where i hailed from when i was in Sweden i usually told folks that i was TEXAN (the greatest country in the world imho hahaha) I did that for the exact reason you mentioned about the American stereotypes. They seemed to dislike America but love everything AmeriCAN to the point they mimicked much of the worst of what our culture had to export.
Being a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ is a far cry from what it is considered to be Christian in 'Christendom.' (i promise not to throw a lot of scripture at you!) Most of the organized religions and 'groups' of self-proclaimed Christians are loyal to the system or 'church body politic.' I don't like to paint the picture with too broad of a stroke, because there are good people in the mix all over, but it's hard not to. A believer's views, when truly practiced rightly, are centered on Jesus and the scriptures. Unfortunately, most of these divisions in the body of believers is contrived on purpose with an agenda of control. Many un and non-believing folks in the world have fairly accurate portrayals of the corruption and divisions among Christians even coming from an ignorant outsider's view. I don't mean the word ignorant there to be rude... but most believers don't even know what or why they believe... how could un/non believers? Of course, there are always exceptions.
The scripture tells us that we as believers in Jesus are part of the body and He is the head. Most of the organized Christian religions have their own head in direct opposition to what Jesus Himself tells us. I won't go too deep into it all since i know most of it wouldn't interest you (as best as i could tell from what you have shared about your beliefs) but as much as there is a value in tradition, ceremony, and history many of the practices are more sanctimonious pageantry than anything else. The confirmation, holy communion, and many other activities are more or less brought about by folks like the kind you mentioned and rightly pointed out ...
differentiators used to classify and segment and based on grouping, judgments are made.
It truly makes me sad that practices like these and experiences that Confirm Conflict do not represent the Truth but rather the vast numbers of groups within the divided billions. There are true believers in most pockets of these corrupt systems of control in dogmatic adherence to what is skewed from clear and plain Biblical teaching and principles. I feel sorry for the un and non-believers the most in that we are called to Love as Christ Loves and more often than not they will not find that in these megachurches or the mainline organized churches. On the other hand, my heart breaks for all those that have blind faith in that they are unaware that anything is even wrong in their practice of what the scriptures tell us. Most don't know the scriptures and put their trust, wrongfully in fallible people misrepresenting. I see a lot of this as a spiritual microcosm to most of the world's macrocosmic truths that you accentuated already.
True Christianity (or Truly following Jesus) is so much the opposite really of what most people are fed that it is... even from their own mother church's teat. I want to say more but i feel it would be potentially unwarranted and just me going on a diatribe. Btw... i looked up the word heathen from the Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek and was pretty shocked to find that it mostly meant people groups, nationalities, and the English word gentile is interchangeable in the Greek. Gentile is just a non-Jew or non-Hebrew. It wasn't used in a derogatory manner in the fashion it most commonly is. That's another misconception due to pop-culture and bad church experience or the Latinization of proto-Germanic and Old English etymologies being extremely biased in the contextual applications during the Dark Ages. ETHNOS is the Greek root that we get the English word Heathen and Ethnic from. It tripped me out considering all that you wrote in the post and how it aligned with my word study on that.
Did i overshare?
It is the same in Finland - mock America for the foolery - like to claim to be "the most American" :D
Organized religion is all based on control - even if in some instances it is to control for better behavior. The scriptures are just that too, an authority saying "this is right" and there is no issue in that, like a YouTube diy, but uninvestigated and blindly followed, everything can be harmful.
It depends on the path of the non-believer, doesn't it? Often the assumption is that a non-believer was raised so, when in most instances, they have chosen to relearn what has been conditioned from birth. Religion is rarely opt-in and even when those who switch religions make that choice, they are still conditioned to believe first. For many atheists, it is an opt-in choice through thought and experience.
Tradition serves a purpose, until it doesn't. The problem is holding onto traditions that have lost purpose, something that a lot of religious traditions do - including their views about humans, even though the knowledge of the world has changed. Most of these traditional views have been created to segment for profit and fear of losing control and they have endured for thousands of years - replicated and taught over and over, and then people wonder why there is so much conflict.
One day when i come back to Scandanavia maybe we could get together at some point and have Fika. It's hard to explain in a text thread without writing a novel like i do everytime. I have always appreciated your perspectives when it comes to spirituality, morals, and values. You sprinkle it in on occasion. I read most of the comments here and could ascertain more context from everyone's discussions. You mentioned below about the concept of being punished for being a non-believer even though being a good person as the parameter of not wanting to serve a God like that if it were to be the case. I can totally understand that point of view because i wrestled with that exact conflict of interests.
I think the difficult part is to define what good is. As you pointed out, there is always an authority to bring about the desired behavior said authority requires. The spiritual model goes south when a relative morality is decided on an individual level. What is moral and good in one culture or (i use the term loosely) religious view can be vastly different.
The scripture tells us that God is Love. In fact, the scripture points out that Love is one of the qualities exhibited by true believers. Unconditional Love at that. Love the Lord your God, Love your neighbor AS yourself (golden rule) and Love your enemy even. This is really quite radical and fosters better behavior overall because it puts the self behind the cause of embodying the qualities that the world lacks for the most part. This instruction is not for overcontrol and domineering authoritarian mandates but with the greater good of everyone in mind... believer and nonbeliever alike.
I have become in a position of spiritual leadership of sorts to a fairly large group of people scattered all over the world. I have always said that I have one hand out to the un and nonbelievers and one hand out to the fellow believers and have an open invitation to walk together in Truth and Love. It has been difficult to counsel and minister peace in people's lives but the best reward is being able to be used by God to serve others. I don't really look for my own benefit or reward beyond being happy to serve anyone that will allow me to.
I don't think we often know when God is at work behind the scenes manifesting in our daily lives and happenings. Faith is the more interesting aspect most folks seem to reject or struggle over the possibilities for seeking facts or proofs instead. I tend to take the Bruce Lee approach to the philosophy behind my faith cutting away the classical mess if it's not the purest form of what Jesus indicates in the scripture. There are many hard scriptures that seem counter-intuitive to what we all believe about how God should be. Every time i thought i found a contradiction that was a deal breaker i dug deeper in studying to find the Truth of the application and it truly brought more understanding building faith rather than tearing it down as i often hoped it would.
I didn't blockquote here but i did reference many of the things you expressed and tried to speak in brief as best i could to address a lot of it, not that you asked me to. It's always touchy talking about these topics because there is usually all the elements you mentioned that it took for each individual to get on the path they are on at this moment in time. I don't have all the answers but i have spent a lifetime seeking them and i wasn't conditioned in the church as a kid. I was fortunate to always have the choice to choose my own way through thought and experience and opt-in myself as you mentioned about atheists.
I will finish with a scripture since i promised not to throw a bunch around. Jesus at one point is being asked which of the commandments of God was the most important one. Jesus replied...
and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these. - Mark 12:29-31
If this was properly allocated and optimized we wouldn't see much of the ills that have been wrought by 'religion.' This is really a personal journey that spreads Love as the vector from inside to out and back again. I will stop now because i know you are a busy dude and very generous with your time and attention. Thank you for being a good dude without doing it for some afterlife golden ticket. I respect that come Hell or High-Water you have that code of honor within yourself to do right as you see it in accordance with leaving a legacy or vanishing into nothing having done your best to live a good life. That my friend is one of those two principles mentioned by Jesus. I wish more believers could at least follow your example in embodying Christ in that fashion. Love you bro! Hope you have a great week.
But, it is all "user defined" as while you (probably) believe the word of God/Jesus, I see it as words crafted/twisted to control. It isn't that it is all bad, but it also isn't all good and one rule in one hand will get a different outcome than the same in another.
And then there is this: God loves unconditionally, but punishes for not meeting its conditions.
A student of Jiddu Krishnamurthi's thoughts, I think :)
I think that it is always taboo to talk about things that effect us - don't talk about politics, religion, money--- what do people go to war over again?
My dad minored in theology - and wasn't a Christian :D
If there was a God and I met it and was able to ask a question, I would ask "How does it know it is the only God, and not inside a larger system than itself, controlled by a greater God? But I am an ass ;)
I like the chats, but I don't always have time to answer as thoroughly as you - so hopefully you are content with what I present :)
Have a great week!
Yes, i appreciate your time that you allocate to engaging EVERYONE! So, i feel you on not being able to answer as thoroughly as one would like. In getting my feet wet I mostly engage here so far... but i am branching out. I just know it's always fun sharing and discussing with you man. I would continue to further this conversation but i know there so many posts and comments... so little time. I have perspective to share on your positions as far as 'IT' is concerned. It would be interesting to have a realtime discussion at some point in the future, time permitted of course. Sorry i always write a book even on my quick response. I find that more can be accomplished verbally in my case. I am sure we could go back and forth in writing and verbally on these topics, religion and spirituality in particular, for days! I do totally agree though that not talking about these issues (money, religion, & politics) has helped form the apathy and the radicalism in that there hasn't been any ground to discuss in the middle. The divide has only grown wider, unfortunately. Take care Taraz! and yes I will be content, for now! hahaha
Hopefully at some point you will get back to Sweden and then we can do a meetup. I reckon that it would be an interesting conversation - but as you might suspect, I argue and I am more than happy to play advocate for the devil :)
The conversation through words is great here and I am very lucky to get the engagement I do with so many great people. I appreciate the time and effort people put in and am grateful for the investment into the discussions.
Enjoy your evening.
!ENGAGE 50
ENGAGEtokens.!ENGAGE 25
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