KE Update
I first wrote about KE Ratio in August 2024, till date that is probably the most useful thing I have written at hive and about hive. Over time I have written multiple posts about KE and they are summarized and back-linked here. A largest synthesis of data can be seen in the Governing Dynamics Post. Again simple definition never hurt:
KE = (Author Rewards + Curation Rewards)/Held HP
KE = 1.0, you hold exactly as you earn (approximately!)
KE > 1.0, you hold less than you earn
KE < 1.0, you hold more than you earn
Typically as a responsible hive stakeholder I like to see people hold more than they earn. Especially if I consider the time factor, I like people to have a low KE for majority of the time. You can look at the Governing Dynamics Post and observe that 'whales' do not have High KE. They are typically invested deeply in the ecosystem and they do not have extractor mindset.
Also it can be easier seen that Curation programs show high KE because they return the curation rewards to their delegators, this is perfectly acceptable behavior. So notice, that we are setting some boundary conditions and NOT taking KE in isolation.
Boundary conditions of KE
- Do Not USE KE ratio in isolation
- High KE or Low KE is relative. Reality in a continuum, any boundaries will create edge effects
- People have suggested greater than KE < 1.0 as excellent, KE = 1-3 as moderate, KE > 3 or 5 as un-acceptable, these are opinions, and I am not responsible for these boundaries
- Curation programs have very high KE and that is okay
- Someone with a High Hive Reputation (above 70) and High KE is far worse than someone with a lower hive reputation (less than 70) and low KE
- An inactive account with high or very high KE is water under the bridge; nothing can be done there. However, an active (currently making posts) account with high KE requires actions from the community
Actions
- Consider making the user aware of their high KE by writing a comment
- Have a social conversation and discussion about their personal life situation (this is a social network)
- Observe how the user is responding, was it ignorance or it was deliberate
- Consider the length of the account, a 6 month old account can make a mistake, a 6 year old account doesn't have that excuse
- See if the user is making positive changes
- Easy way to improve KE is powering up hive
What is new: The Marky Edition
@themarkymark recently published a number of posts, the most recent being this one, where he is providing a new data analytics table of various hive related data. It is called Hive Analytics. It has a number of different elements and tabs that leads to various tables of data that can be filtered in a variety of different ways. I especially liked the recent addition to KE- Leaderboard. The link is below:
https://hiveanalytics.usehive.com/ke-leaderboard
Marky also introduced a new matrix called KE+. It is defined as follows:
KE+ = (Author + Curation + Witness + DHF)rewards/Held HP
Generated using Napkin
For most common hive users the two new terms, witness rewards and DHF rewards are ZERO. For example it is zero for me. So in my case KE = KE+. For me both numbers are 0.259.
Above is a table of hive accounts with > 1M held HP. For Pharesim, who is a witness or block producer, his KE = 0.167, but KE+ = 1.761. It is still green, or below 3.0. However, this is another way to look at people's behavior at hive. An interesting note: all KE and KE+ values for 1M HP club users are not only below 3.0, they are below 2.0. In fact 1.761 is the highest KE+ value for the large stakeholders. We can look at the large stakeholders more at a later time, but they are not very interesting fortunately! :)
Let's Focus on High KE Active Users
In order to do this filter, I simply put 3000 in the HP box and hit enter. I used that as a random HP cut-off for user with some kind of history at hive (don't want to pick up a bunch of new users). The default sort in the tool is sort by highest KE to lowest KE.
This is what I got. At the bottom you can set the display to a max of 500 rows on a page. That gave the lowest KE at the bottom with a value of 1.789! I thought that is plenty good and deep into the green for me to care. Let us plot this up. I explained this so that you know where I got the KE=1.789!
Here is the familiar plot if you guys are used to my style of cross plots. X-Axis is HP in log-scale, and Y-axis is KE also in log scale. It is necessary to use log-scale for visibility and correlation, as we are plotting data that varies several orders of magnitude. The size of the circle is proportional to the author rewards.
We immediately see the crowded and less crowded part of the area. If we are looking for bad boys and girls, pardon my French, we should be looking in the outlier areas. However, mind my boundary conditions! We have an activity filter here!
Now Only Active and Very Active
Notice the data size dropped to 349. Inactive accounts doesn't interest me at the moment. Those people have sold and left, I don't care about them until they come back and start posting.
Well, I see some familiar names! Now let us clip the vertical axis to 3.0. I think that is generous! Now it is 166 data points or accounts with KE > 3.0. Again look into the outlier area, and ignore the curation projects.
Let us take one active account that sticks out like a sore thumb! Mind you, I mentioned now we also have the time component to this, so we can see how an individual behaved with time at hive blockchain. That is @beaker007 's tool https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/balance_history_page
Blue line is the held HP through time for khaleelkazi account! With a KE of 34 and very active, I would classify that account as a hive reward pool extractor.
There you have it. I am just presenting the data with some broad guidelines and boundary conditions. What you want to do with it is entirely up to you!
Oh, there you go stirring up things again with data! 😀
Absolutely! That has always been my intent.
You see, I don’t want money and I have nothing to lose.
People should always be afraid of an enemy who has nothing to lose.
Yes, those are good points! I'm a bit more concerned about the money. I don't need it, but it would be nice. I have to toe the line a little more because of that.
you may not need to do the scatterplots manually.
There are many other views planned, but some of them are fairly complex to implement.
Much obliged!
Words of Nakata in Kafka on the Shore..
Ash is in the wall of
shamefame!!Brofi, riding high too. This is alarmingly informative
We know about Ash. That is a life event. We know and we appreciate life events.
Brofi I am not sure, is it curation program. If it is then it’s fine
Yeah indeed, I just hate seeing a familiar face in the numbers, lol
Yeah, they did curation. Phew!
I agree with the last paragraph but if you look at him in the plot, you see two another users close by, one is a community which we can discard but also a real user who surprised me a bit since is a famous curator around.
I have downvoted her recent over-rewarded post which I had upvoted because I follow curangel, to draw her attention and tagged her below.
Being an outlier can be challenging. You need to be prepared to be noticed…
Not famous :)
She has that behavior problem since ages and we should make sure she fixes it.
@anggreklestari please consider powering up some hive.
As you will probably guess from this question, I don't understand too much about Hive financial structure. Doesn't it benefit Hive to have a greater number of active users, even if they extract? Isn't it good for our profile, as a community, to have more active users?
If we discourage users with high KE, and we chase them away, does that benefit Hive?
There are people who use Hive to cover small daily expenses. Do we discourage these people, even though they have a high KE?
This is a loaded question/comment.
Let me try and answer it and I will try not to impose too much of my personal bias.
First, to answer the last bit. I am an aware of those individuals and I support a few myself. However, there should be some semblance of sanity somewhere. I know a Venezuelan couple who struggles to make their ends meet and yet they manage to keep a reasonably good KE. It takes immense mental strength to achieve that when your kids are hungry! They said something to me, "it is after all our rainy-day funds too!"
I rest my case.
Second, yes we do want people to use hive. But at the same time if we only have extractors and no contributors then we have failed.
Let me know if I have addressed your questions.
Yes, you have. As for the Venezuelan couple... they are correct. Hive is a way for them not only to earn money for the day-to-day, but also to salt some away in an economy where there is little opportunity to save money that has value. They remind me of my mother. We were poor, very very poor. Yet, somehow she saved. She would have held onto Hive also, if she had a chance :)
I grew up poor. In a family of refugees:)
I know and recognize the concept. :)
🌈🌷
Maybe I don't fully grok the underlying metric, but it seems to me there's an additional "wrinkle" to KE that doesn't get mentioned a lot: That of "old timers" who have low KEs for no reason other than they exchanged all their Steem for Hive around the time of the Hive fork... which is a little different from going on an exchange an actually putting, let's say, $1,000 worth of your own skin into the game.
It is a very interesting tool, though... and I appreciate you adding this part, too:
=^..^=
Just a glance on the name will tell me the details. We can look at the full history of all accounts now.......here is yours for example
A very nice looking and simple chart, by the way.
I like simple.
Thanks for the further explanation. I didn't realize the KE calculations extended back past March 2020.
I like simple, as well. Slow and steady, and all that stuff... although that graph is also a monument to my failed attempts at building an HBD savings balance. Invariably it comes out every year for taxes. But that still beats powering down...
=^..^=
I love data, and I am exceptionally good in plotting the data so that it is easily consumable for even a 5 year old.
I strongly believe we are the net sum of our biases and our actions reveals our behaviors and they are recorded in the blockchain. So all we must do is look in the right direction and with correct lighting!
Thank you for your comment and visit! I appreciate!
My KE is pretty good. I need to find the perfect time to buy 1 million HIVE, and then it will get even better. In a bull market, I can't afford to buy a lot of HIVE.
Interesting that the high KE active users almost always had a very similar KE and KE+ score whereas the accounts with more than 1M HP the two metrics are often different.
I'm pretty boring through, 0.906 for both.
Hive tools for viewing what is going on on Hive have really improved recently with these statistics from Marky and charts from beaker...
One thing I like about hive is how open it is😂😂
You really can't get away with anything nowadays... It brings that sense of security...
After maintaining a high KE for a long time, I am powering down to take advantage of any price movement, that may happen in a month or two. I will convert to HBD and go for HBD interest if that happens, may be we should consider HBD investment in KE ?
Great post, very good to keep repeating "Boundary conditions of KE" as with many indicators.
Also thanks for pointing me to site of @themarkymark, really interesting site (upvoted the proposal), professional site it is 👏 with loads of data 😁.
Something I noticed is that beneficiary rewards aren't counted towards your author rewards, so someone might "cheat" their KE ratio by setting a secondary account as beneficiary (or a service like rewards.app) and then powering up a small amount of HIVE on their main account, thus decreasing their KE while extracting rewards. It would be useful to (somehow) take this into account when calculating the KE ratio (or its more advanced versions, like the KE+). Not a big deal right now, but in the long run more people might find it out and make this value less and less useful to help evaluate someone's behavior on Hive.
It's simply amazing to see such progress in the metrics here! I hope to soon be one of those who contributes more than they extract value! My eyes always light up when I think that I never spent a penny to get started on hive/pob/etc. and have literally made a few hundred dollars with my texts already. Here's to more, for the community and for me too :)