For what its worth, I haven't gotten into "downvote wars" often, I could probably count most of them quite quick here and give you a description as to what the reasons were.
Some account called boosta who'd selfvote a ton on short meme content on main account and alts, this may have been way before downvote mana even existed. He was quite a big account, 400k+ SP back in the day I believe and went on to retaliate the initial downvotes for months on end.
Some accounts from Korean stakeholders, one initial downvote on a post simply asking a question at $60+ back then caused for months of retaliation of a trail of 20-40m SP.
A couple east European users who'd shitpost "poetry" and maximize the way they'd earn rewards by vote trading, selfvoting and the likes, think they were called something like dobartim and flysky, they remained on Steem I believe as they voted for Justin Sun witnesses before the fork.
One account who's still active today trying to milk the pool called kingscrown.
A lot of accounts still trying to sell votes even after the change in curation and introduction of downvote mana to bring curation back, some resistance there early on but eventually most opted for curation, though I'm sure a lot of resentment and grudges remained due to APR's decreasing.
The Project Hope community for orchestrating a long lasting kickback scheme where they'd ask their community to give them 50% of the author rewards in order to receive votes, caused a lot of comments and drama back and forth but eventually they stopped leasing HP since it wasn't profitable anymore and settled for Steem.
I'm sure a lot of individual users as well but most of the time many were short lasting.
These things are recorded on the blockchain, it's not meant to be a "triumph" or to boast about my recklessness or stubbornness or braveness or anything, I just did what I thought was right and what I believed the majority agreed to, whether or not they were open and public about it was another thing.
Downvotes are no ones friend but without them we can't make this place work, that's clear.
If you're pushed to have to downvote someone there's most of the time nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose. Time spent debating, arguing and trying to reason. Time spent researching and trying to understand how certain schemes are set up to cheat the rewardpool in favor of a few actors at the cost of all the others. Time spent making up for retaliation attempts on yourself, others involved with your projects or just others who dared to speak up - which is why many choose to remain silent instead, albeit not the only reason.
I've been called a lot of things over the years, I'm sure I've also called many different things as well, but being named a "downvoter" by people you respected is quite something. Many look at it and think I do it for the attention, many think I just like to argue and make the place worse for others and some think I just like driving people away to keep pretending to act important to a smaller crowd rather than letting the crowd get bigger. There's these weird theories that witnesses and other big stakeholders don't want others to come in, buy and earn hive and get into big and top positions to compete against them which is quite out there considering that'd mean a 10-100x re-evaluation of the price of hive.
This brings me to my next thing, the silence in many who decide to ignore and pretend they don't see these activities is because it may affect them in different ways. If I come to defend this downvoter the downvoted account may unvote my witness account or undelegate from my project or not vote for my posts in the future or etc, etc, etc. If I defend these actions I may be bundled in with the initial downvoter as "one of the downvoters" and "destroyers of hive". It's quite political in a way as a user I've been talking to lately has mentioned that a lot of things on Hive are, whether you're a witness or not it can still get quite political as most actions or lack thereof have consequences.
Wouldn't it be great not to have to downvote at all? Fuck yeah it would, hive would be fantastic if we all came to terms and used curation the way it was meant to be used. If autovoters shifted their votes a bit more often, included new people a bit more often, removed some doing much better a bit more often. If manual curators wided their horizons a bit more often, spent more time on not just new users but the older ones as well who may have been forgotten. If trailers spread out their vote follows a bit more, changed it up whenever they noticed some abuse may be occurring, etc. If authors who did really well cared about the users who commented on their posts, forfeited some rewards here and there if certain posts weren't as up to par as the ones before or the one coming after. If stakeholders took the time to support and bother to look into new projects, throw some delegations to get some skin in their ecosystem they're building on hive, offered tools, guidance and wisdom to newer ones starting out knowing that if they do well we all do well.
Maybe it's the long winter or maybe it's the hopium being low and people generally being tired and exhausted, maybe things would swiftly change as quick as certain altcoins pump in the markets, but things aren't easy for many around here these days. Many are in survival mode or delayed mode, many may be tempted to ignore their morals to make sure whatever baseline they had in mind from their investment here to see the light of day at any cost. Many may already have stepped over a few lines and are living in fear someone might notice, while others just keep at it patiently but don't realize they're getting robbed silently day and night.
I'm not really sure where this post headed at the end, or what I was originally going to talk about regarding the title. It was a clever mix of victim mentality and I am the main character syndrome but I feel like I didn't really talk about that at all and instead about something completely different. Now it instead translates like I'm making it sound like I'm the victim when I'm not.
Hive is cool because Hive is unique, if you try to game and scheme that uniqueness in your favor then Hive may not be what you're after. I don't like it when some people use their proof of brain to game the system for easy rewards at the cost of others, and neither should you. Things aren't perfect and will improve over time, as long as we keep fairly distributing stake wide and hope many of them keep some of it so they can use it to do the same over time.
I'm worried there's been a weird shift of getting votes for giving something away that's not effort, quality and attention, but hopefully it's not that big to become a problem in terms of stake distribution and mentality of how curation should be used.
Thanks for reading.
image created with Sora
The quality of many of the posts seems to have dropped, but they are still getting curated. I have talked to quite a few who struggle to find decent things to vote, that aren't people who are only taking out all of their earnings. I want Hive to succeed and I want to support people who ware powering up some of their earnings and supporting others who are in turn doing the same. It is about building the economy, not using the economy as it stands today to get the maximum immediate earnings from it.
As for the "wouldn't it be great without having to downvote" - yeah it would - but unfortunately, people are people and many in crypto are maximizers and care about nothing but themselves now - even if it costs them tomorrow.
Looking at my feed it seems many do get voted on quite consistently which is nice to see. Looking at the community feed may be a bit of a different story. I still find people who just know about their own feed, often forget to use the follow function and don't spend much time other than their feed and trending. I wish people would bother looking further now and then as there's definitely more to find even if as you say the quality of content isn't that high at times like these.
Another thing I'd like to mention which was a point I wanted to make way back, if you feel certain posts are overrewarded it should be perfectly fine to downvote them for that. Even if it's from a user that constantly sells it's okay imo to "bother to downvote" those overrewarded posts while ignoring some overrewarded ones of users who stay staked. What I don't like seeing personally is if the main reason becomes what they do with the rewards instead of how they've earned them. That's a slippery slope cause we can't know what they're doing with the rewards and those staying staked does not mean they're "better people" necessarily or providing more value to the chain. We've seen in the past how one downvote can cause some folks to lose it and ruin years of progress in one sitting.
I have a few communities I follow, and I know others do the same. It isn't always easy to find decent stuff, and then spend the time researching to see if it is indeed "real" content.
I get the not focusing on what they do with their rewards, but if they are earning them through content, but aren't commenting well, aren't supporting others, are just financing whatever else they do with the rewards, they probably aren't going to stick around past the post rewards anyway.
I think it is similar for witnesses - at least the top 20 should be putting in the effort to make it clear what is happening and what is being developed. I miss the time when there was talk about development and hardforks on the chain that included the community. It is hard to know what is going on at all these days it seems, and that makes it hard for people to get excited about being on Hive and being part of a movement in a community.
Yeah, I know I'm really bad at this, although I'm trying to increase my posting frequency and include some content to lure normies ;-)
❤️
As someone still relatively new to the blogging aspect of Hive, I appreciate the 'rant' posts you do. Not just because they can be entertaining but also because you bring to light sometimes things that those of us like me who don't really ever think about these topics.
I know upvoting and downvoting are both actions 1 can take on a post. But I personally have never downvoted a post (well not that I can remember). I have had some comments on posts I make that are already automatically hidden because the account got downvoted so much. But that is the extent of my exposure to downvoting.
So reading this and seeing what some bad actors have done just opens my eyes to be not as 'naive' I guess and to pay attention to the ecosystem as a whole and not just my little slice of it.
So thanks Acidyo! Keep it up!
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This old chestnut again. It will never end because some people are going to do what some people do to others in any area of real life.
The general public have been so conditioned to accept that life is a zero sum game by our narcissist 'leaders, friends and associates' that few people are left sane enough to question the status quo.
Narcissists are everywhere these days gaslighting people to try to control their tiny little meaningless lives.
I think the downvote wasn't used enough on many accounts that flat out robbed the community of $10's of millions.
We all know who they are and some are still here wearing sheeps clothing or using alt accounts. 🤦♂️😂👍
I'll have to write a blog on this topic at some point as it's almost mandatory to keep reminding people that this is real money with a few real people screwing everyone else. Timely reminder.
I'd be interested in who you think are using alt accounts to further farm the rewards pool or what you consider farming. Will throw you a follow!
Much as I'd like to name names you know what will happen? I don't want to get into flame wars over something we have virtually no control over. It damages everything and solves nothing and who needs the drama?
I know it's good for getting engagement but it's not the kind of engagement hive needs.
People are going to be people. It's been the same since the beginning back on the old chain before the fork.
If and when we meet up in person sometime I'd be happy to discuss these things with you.
I'm pretty sure that you must be aware of the accounts that have been farming in a variety of behaviours for as long as this crypto thing has existed.
Can we change human behaviour? I doubt it.
Whilst I am an optimist, experience with people has taught me otherwise.
Do you think that new people joining the platform will see this kind of behaviour acceptable. What kind of people will it attract?
I know that we have to talk about it but i don't think it's going to change anything long term.
Thanks for the follow. I don't post as often as I used to. I'm taking a long needed rest. 👍
This is a great question to be honest that I've often fought for. I'll be making a video or post about this soon as it touches on a few subjects and I think communities has helped shape that for the better.
I am still relatively new to Hive and I have enjoyed my journey thus far. I am always learning and always seeking to improve being a "good Hiver".
There are many nuances and "Downvoting" is something I've yet to dabble in - but then again, I have a relatively small stake and thus my downvotes won't matter too much vs someone who downvotes with 500k Staked HP or something similarly large.
I am beginning to understand why they are needed but am reluctant to use them
Dobartim's poetry was legendary and shall live on in the minds of many for millennia 😃😃
I have downvoted people for the whole time I have been here and you are right you get nothing but grief for it. A lot of the time from people you respect who claim it is damaging the platform even when you are downvoting an obvious and known scammer. It's a tough old one
This is a compelling account of the challenges you've faced within the Steem/Hive ecosystem. The persistence of vote manipulation and the long-term effects of past actions highlight the need for stronger community governance and more effective measures against malicious actors. Understanding the history behind these issues is crucial for building a healthier and more equitable platform.
Hearing these from someone who's seen Hive evolve through its wild phases felt honest and raw. You don't glorify downvoting, but show how messy and necessary it can be, and it's my personal opinion, knowing you and what you do in Hive. You have my respect for standing by your principles even when it's uncomfortable.
how are you doing?
Started farming again?
https://peakd.com/@ashikstd/posts
I'm doing well, thanks for asking. I hope you're doing fine as well.
Nope, not farming anything.
I think downvotes are fine if used with a proper reason as long as an explanation comes if requested and are not given without a why... Then one can eventually fix the issue
I appreciate your work on the cleaning, because this produce less token devalue aswell
I also understand the small fishes who don't want to expose, because let's say you abuse and someone expose your abusing, I downvote you, but your retaliation on me would just smash my small stake, I could not counter it
One last thing, I got the feeling this kinda stress you a lot, not the vote wars but some people calling you names, take it easy and block people, don't bother, go for a walk
Sounds like Hive went through an evolution in terms of exploitation schemes and all. Some people have chosen to move to Steem? Steem seems to have a smaller market cap compared to Hive even though Hive came as a fork from Steem?
Yeah it's one of the unique forks out there that outperformed the original. Another thing to note is that Hive also rewards "anyone" a lot more than the original, there it's mostly whoever has stake gets the votes thus their trending is often the same day after day - something that vote buying and these other delegation for vote projects encourage to become the same that I've been a bit harder on lately.
You’re not alone in this. Sometimes I wonder too why so many choose comfort over integrity. But hey, there’s always someone watching, learning, and quietly appreciating. Like me
I think the part where people don't talk what they think because it could affect monetization or act solely politely with everything for same reason is some issue in the authenticity aspect of the ecosystem... Something I think it's kinda boring are series of draft posts about literally nothing to issue rewards. I mean, who tf cares? Lol I think not even the author would read it...
But I guess the controversy in this topic is that people think your curation project is almost the same of selling votes, or that getting delegations benefits yourself the same way in the end in exchange of voting them, or don't you vote them? I don't even know. Some may think there is nothing morally wrong with selling votes here. Maybe could clarify how thats different cause I really don't understand much...
Btw some dapps like liketu sounds mainly a way for regional exchange of votes, which can make sense at Venezuela e.g. and onboarding friends... Since there is not much "content" there with mainly selfies... I see nothing wrong with that and even think the idea is cool somewhat like mainstream social medias...
Another point is that for what I saw at that podcast about it and some talks here, there is no technical discussion about it to include on HAFs.
Come on, this is quite easy to check. No we don't vote on delegators.
I only tend to use downvotes if there is obvious intellectual abuse going on. Stealing content plagiarizing, things like that. My account is still pretty small in the grand scheme of things and I have spent too much of my time building it to this point to watch it be wiped out by someone having a bad day or holding a grudge for some petty interaction.
Let's say someone would zero your rewards because they're having a bad day or difference of opinion or something of the likes after you used your downvote on what majority would consider fair way to adjust overrewards, etc.
Do you feel the community/others would step up to counter the bad downvotes on you?
Similiarly, do you feel the community/others should also step up to downvote overrewards to protect the reward pool and every other author?
I'd like to think that I have been around long enough and established a reputation that yes people would step up to make me whole. I might not be the most vocal but I have been here involved and growing for more than seven years. For me that means something. I don't even know how to answer the second part because it just isn't in me to abuse the chain like that.
Oh I didn't mean you'd abuse it, I mean do you feel like you and others who'd step up to counter bad downvotes on yourself should also try and protect the reward pool from "bad upvotes" in terms of overrewarding, farm attempts, low effort milking, etc.
That's kind of what we lack these days and while I'm seeing a little bit of activity there that I think we should be grateful towards as it's quite a shitty job - particularly from accounts like @azircon, @galenkp and @themarkymark, I feel like there needs to be more of it, especially once the price of hive starts going higher.
You forgot smooth. :) He comes along and hits me every now and then. I usually just let them slide though, I don't try to counter them at all.
but it's obvious why he does it, it's not cause the people have done something to him, it's just to point out what he thinks is overrewarded.
My point here is that someone is downvoting me out of retaliation cause I downvoted their vote buying and now a community account that literally autoposts the same copypasted crap over and over and some voteselling services still vote the posts.
I wouldn't mind people downvoting me cause it's overrewarded posts or cause I'm just looking to farm.
That makes sense. I've always tried not to use my downvotes in a retaliatory manner like that. I think not agreeing with the rewards is one thing, but not agreeing with the content is another. I always try to just let stuff like that slide otherwise it can escalate pretty quickly.
oh, my bad thought u replied to the post, didn't see which comment u had replied to.
I have used Hive for two years, but believe me I can't understand the logic behind votes, and down votes..... but i noticed that people who come on the radar of whales get higher votes and those who never come on the radar or notice get normal weight of votes.....
!PIZZA
It seems the responsibility of keeping hive.blog a safe haven has put a tremendous amount of burden on your shoulders, @acidyo I really hope that you and your team find proper ways to keep this platform a healthy place for everyone.
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@danzocal(1/10) tipped @acidyo
Come get MOONed!
It is very touching that you have explained the bees and beekeeping to all those people who Sadar always gave you downloads for no reason. I laughed a lot and was very happy and upset.I think you are a strong representative that no one can harm even if they want to.And I think those who try to harm you will eventually go to ruin.
!PIZZA
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