Thanks for sharing @troglodactyl. What about using the flagging tool as a weapon to punish people for their ideological leanings. Do you think that Steemit might suffer blowback from that type of behavior. Do you think that one day, people might jump ship and head over to places like busy.org because of it?
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Man... I know what your problem is, you aren’t capable of thinking outside the box, or outside of already learned systems, and you don’t seem to be able to learn anything new, multiplied by a feeling of being overly grandiose.
Both busy.org and steemit.com are just interfaces with the Steem Blockchain. Many users use both. Your uninformed posts appear on both platforms, if you didn’t realize it yet.
LOL @fukako, thanks for letting me know what you think my problem is, and for telling me what you think I feel. I do know that the Steem blockchain is not the same thing as Steemit. However, I was unaware that the other platforms were independant interfaces.
Lets look at @troglodactyl's analogy of a browser, and we'll call the steem blockchain the internet. Anyone can have their own browser (or user interface) Steemit, Busy, etc.. etc.. However, just because you can build a browser to work really well, that doesn't mean that you should program into it functions that don't work well.
For example, I'm sure someone could create an internet browser where if you clicked a button it would emulate 56k speeds. Yet nobody wants that function because it is stupid and destructive. I think that most people see flagging in the same way, stupid and destructive except in rare circumstances like spam.
So it begs the question, will Steem allow an interface that omits, or restricts the use of the flagging tool? If so, how dire would the consequences be if Steemit did nix that tool? I think right now UI's are probably representing the flagging tool simply because it is baked into the functionality of the blockchain.
They took the existing features, and represented it on the UI. I would suggest, that they didn't have too, and that the creativity of the people would boost dramatically if they removed it, which would equate to more content for the blockchain, and more positive interactions on Steemit, and a better overall Steemit reputation.
If there is a flaw in that thinking @fukako please let me know.
Obviously, for it to work there would need to be a creative solution implemented in order to address spam, and the like.
I don't understand how you think that an interface like busy.org not utilizing a flagging tool would be any sort of solution. Anyone that feels like flagging can just jump over to an interface that does have a flagging tool, and there are plenty of flaggers who would still flag.
Flagging is important. It's not destructive to the platform at all. It makes sure that people know the risk of posting bad or plagiarized content.
If there were no flag feature, people would self vote all day every day without a care in the world, enriching themselves with nothing because they'd effectively be driving the value of the platform into the ground.
Flagging is just as important as upvoting.
The only "jump ship" that could happen, is if people went to an entirely different platform to get paid for their content.
@bitfiend thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter!
My concern is with genuine content being flagged, simply because the flagger disagrees with the opinions that are expressed in a post.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that plagiarism and spam needs to be dealt with, I just think it needs to be dealt with in a more creative way.
As far as self-upvoting is concerned, if it is a destructive thing then Steemit devs may want to consider discouraging the tactic by removing it as an option from the posting screen.
Yet if you think about it from a freedom perspective, we all have this ability to vote for whoever we want. This freedom to vote for whomever we want is what led to first the self voting, and then the vote bots.
It basically created a situation where the platform, and it's users had to rapidly evolve or respond to the fact that many whales simply stopped manually curating.
My contention is that Steemit should find a reasonable alternative for dealing with plagiarism and spam, and then implement that.
Then, they could either remove the flagging tool or change the way in which it functions on this UI so that people do not engage in blatant content censorship which tends to lead to hostility and downvote wars.
Update: I do realize that downvoters and flaggers will simply do it from another platform, and that is fine. You see the thing is Steemit sold itself as a censorship free platform by cleverly talking about characteristics of the block-chain itself when they promote their product.
That type of clever marketing is what caused liberty-loving people to flock to this platform in droves , thinking it was censorship-free. By removing or fixing the flagging option in this UI, they can become the product that they were selling to their user base all along. It would be a good way of preventing a mass exodus.
This is where people are mistaken about steemit and what it is. I never once read that this platform was censorship free. I did my research and understood there was a downvote system for disagreements with content or rewards.
If you talk about controversial topics you are bound to experience some kind of censorship no matter what platform or forum you use. Its a risk people take when they decide to debate on controversial subjects.
Just as easy as it is to get censored, its easy to get uncensored if enough people agree. There are more problems on stemeit than flags or the idea to remove the feature.
I can tell you that ned himself said that they are working on tools for moderation and to fight plagiarism and abuse. Don't know when these tools will be implemented but it is evident that the tools will be granted to worthy individuals so not everyone will be able to see these tools. I assume this is the first step being taken to resolve the issue you speak of but i doubt the removal of flags entirely is where they are heading with it. I think you will find it necessary to have the flag feature available as opposed to having to wait for a mod to resolve an issue.
Of course, flagging of content that is original is complete bs and I have seen it myself, but I mostly see it on posts that are generating thousands upon thousands of dollars a day.
Steemit sold me on original content. I never considered negative original content
I did consider this to be a conspiracy theorists haven because there is very little censorship.
The censorship you speak of, that we see on here, is not quite the censorship I've experienced myself on facebook or youtube, so it's still quite the utopia.
I can say that there is a certain part of the flagging option that does need fixing.
Of course I could be partly wrong. Maybe I missed the censorship-free part. I just see people doing the censoring instead of media or gov'ts which is what I consider a step in the right direction. It's us policing ourselves.
I Hope as you said, that they are in fact working on tools to make the Steemit experience more free speech oriented, so the bullshit as you say can stop.
The first time I was soft-censored the downvote came from the lead technical developer of Steemit.
I was shocked to say the least, thought to myself it's almost like they are following the same path as the failing platforms of yesteryear;
(twatter, fakebook, and
utube).The feeling that I get from your second paragraph is one of resignation, and defeat. Steemit is an American company, in America we have freedom of speech, and I think our internet companies should strive to mirror that in the digital realm too.
I think if their users demand it, they will have no choice but to hear us out.
I hope those tools come soon. My third paragraph sheds light on the sense of defeat in my second. The power of the people will demand that those things that are censored to oblivion on other platforms, will be much harder to censor here. Thanks for your responses! It's conversations like this that make me appreciate this platform so much.
A bit harsh, but a necessary clarification. I tell people it's like the difference between using Facebook through Firefox, Chrome, or a mobile app. Same users, same content, same platform, just different interfaces.
This is actually a rally interesting question - one that weighs heavily on my mind. We pride ourselves on the quality of discourse and discussion on steemit - and I think there's some justification for that. But in the short time I've been here, I have not seen evidence of anything like the culture wars that have raged across other social media - twitter in particular. If that were to occur here, and if enough people joined, it would, how would the system cope? Can you imagine the havoc that a political party could cause by opening a stack of accounts and loading them up with SP purchased from their war chests?
Exactly @samueldouglas, I made a similar point here. It's exactly what I am trying to avoid on the Steemit platform. I'm just a nobody on here right now, but I have the foresight just as you did right in the above post to see what's going to happen months or years down the line.
ugh, posted the wrong link, it is updated now.
I read it pretty quickly, and I've not totally recovered from after-work drinks, (I don't know where you are, but it's Friday night here), but I really think you had some good points. I wonder if we could synthesise something out of what you wrote, combined with what I wrote here.
Good idea, i'll check it out. You know, I wrote this post while drinking (drunk) I had to come back to tidy it up a bit. It could have been allot more embarrassing than it actually was. I think the spirits were what was able to allow me to distill the core of the issue, and find the right question to ask.
Update: Wow! Amazing post! Very well thought out, great analogies!
As @fukako points out busy.org and steemit.com (as well as d.tube, steepshot, and at least half a dozen others) are just interfaces to the Steem blockchain. Moving from one to the other has no impact on how voting works, just as posting to Facebook through Chrome rather than Firefox won't change how many people like your posts.
I think use of voting to punish ideological leanings should be counter-voted. Social networks thrive on controversy and silencing one side of a debate is a missed opportunity for the network financially as well as being socially destructive censorship.
Thanks for sharing your opinion @troglodactyl. I agree with respect to the counter voting. As long as flagging is a thing, then counter voting, or counter flagging in self-defense if you have the Steem, is generally a Steemians only recourse.
I'd like to see a downvote button right next to the upvote button, but I think all it should do is count votes, not vote weight. It would help people to express their opinions in a healthy way without engaging in destructive behavior.
It's my goal to make downvoting an unpopular thing on Steemit. My hope is that it will become so unpopular that people will shy away from using it for the wrong reasons. Nobody cares if a spammer gets voted down. Hell, it wouldn't be a bad idea to turn the flag button into a spam button.
I look at downvoting for the wrong reason like a crazy person wielding a weapon, and Steemit right now is kind of like the wild wild west. When we steemians see someone acting crazy with the gun, wildly shooting down ideas they don't like, then we Steemians should be able to disarm them. Maybe abusive downvoters could be flagged and after so many flags their downvoting privileges would be suspended for a short time?
There are so many ways creatively that the devs could address the problem of abusive flagging. I really appreciated @fukako's information about the other platforms that run atop of steem. Now I'm wondering if those platforms have a system that is equivalent to flagging, or if it's only unique to Steemit.
If downvoting is a function of Steem itself, and all of these platforms are incorporating it simply because it is there, that would seem unwise. I don't have all the pieces to the puzzle, and I'm sure getting rid of the function would lead to some unforeseen ramifications. I guess the biggest query would be; would the pros out weigh the cons?
One argument for people who are against removing the flag tool is that they can simply hop over to one of the other UI's and do their downvoting from there. As an experiment it would be slick to see one of the UI's nix the functionality and replace it with something better.
It is a function of Steem itself. It's not possible to circumvent it, unless they change Steem itself.
But hey, really, do your own homework.
@sneak didn't downvote you, @thoughts-in-time, because he is crazy or malicious, he has downvoted you because your posts are completely uninformed. Personally, I think he is right.
Since you like analogies, think of the school system. If you talk complete nonsense about a subject you are taking (and by participating in Steem and thinking that you are writing critically about it, you certainly are), some students will find it funny and laugh and even cheer (the upvotes) and people who are actually busy developing the subject further (say, research professors) will most likely fail you (flag you) for wasting their and your own time.
I wouldn't even call what you write criticism because it's just completely uninformed.
The dithering and hiding of posts is not part of Steem. It's something that Steemit added, like you said before; one need only visit Busy.org and see their UI to prove that is true.
As far as the downvote itself: I bet you even though it's a part of Steem, that Steemit could exclude, or restrict access to the option from their interface entirely.
Think about it from a designers perspective. It is certainly not impossible.
I say if people really want to downvote, let them do it from a different UI. Then this platform could be a unique app on the blockchain, they could be a bastion of free speech.
yes, but you didn't know about Busy.org before me and several others told you about it.
Which proves my point. I can also downvote you from Busy.org if you want me to. It's even easier there, with the downvote button right next to the upvote, where I don't have to scroll all the way up ;)
Are you a developer? You are only voting for two witnesses by the way. At least one of them is often involved in plagiarizing other people's work for profit, and no technical expertise.
So, once again:
Did you do your homework?
edit:
There, I am editing this comment through Busy.org, and downvoting yours just to try it out :D
Doesn't collapse your comment on Busy.org XD
So there still free speech!
Actually, since Steem allows so many interfaces, and Steemit actually wants competition and helps it, you cannot say that they are impeding free speech.
That's exactly what I just said. The soft-censorship is not part of the Steem blockchain. It is part of the Steemit UI. That's what I've been fighting against.
You basically just proved my point. I think it's intellectually dishonest of the Steemit devs to extol the virtue of the uncensored nature of the Steem blockchain, when talking about Steemit.com because people, especially new people tend to conflate the two.
It’s deceptive, but clever marketing. Don’t believe your lying eyes, or fall into the hypnotists web of lies.
Listen carefully to the words, a statement is made, the room goes silent, eyes get shifty, everyone's holding their breath, wearing their best poker face, hoping not to be challenged, hoping they don't crack a smile.
Then a joke is made, giving them all permission to have that laugh after all. The humorous part of it was the guy that said there are no gatekeepers on the Steem blockchain, regularly acts as a gate keeper on the Steemit UI.
So many people think that Steemit.com is a bastion of free speech, because they sold it that way. Yet when you have these kinds of shenanigans playing out right in front of our eyes, and most of us are unable to see it, it just speaks allot to our collective gullibility.
To be clear, I am not talking about gate-keeping (or soft-censorship) on Steem. I am specifically, and only talking about post hiding and dithering, and comment collapsing and dithering on the Steemit UI.
They could do way with it if they wanted, they could probably even block access to the flagging tool. I would suggest that those kinds of radical actions for the greater good, would significantly change things for the better on Steemit.
I know, I know, you ain't trying hear it. So lets let it be, we can both agree to disagree.
Why do you care so much?
Just use Busy.
I use Busy, but I do like the collapsed flagged posts on Steemit, because I always click on them to see why they were flagged.
I wouldn’t even notice your post, if it wasn’t flagged in the first place 😅
I think it’s brilliant!