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7 years ago in #steem by abitcoinskeptic (74)
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I agree that the downvote button should be separated as I almost clicked on it a couple of times in the beginning when I didn't know it was already implemented.
But, I can get used to it.
Off topic (please don't downvote me!) I just want to mention that I feel the same way about the follow/unfollow button when on the phone. How many people have been unfollowed this way? Too close!
Great post and you have now taken some of the mystery out of why people flag. I have been downvoted and flagged by bots - all because someone upvoted me (that they apparently didn't like) sooooo, I have have been used as a piece of property.
I am a little sad that it has gotten a little slower and quieter on the platform, but, I am certainly glad it is flushing the abusers.
!tip
Everyone is asking me not to downvote. Did you know asking for upvotes is a reason to downvote? I wonder of asking not for downvotes is a reason to upvote?
I think the accident is possible but there us a warning that looks totally different, and you can remove it, especially if asked.
I am against retaliation, but if someone said they accidentally downvoted me then didn't remove it if I asked for it to be removed, that would probably make me retaliate because I think lying is a fair reason to downvote someone.
I accidentally unfollow people all the time. I wish there were a confirmation actually.
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Thank you for bringing this to our attention and for explaining your rationale which is sane and sensible. Having been hacked and consequently flagged, I know how that feels. I got sorted though and rehabilitated. I've also been spammed with dick picks and and flagged and that's just awful. By accounts with no value. For what? Because someone was having a bad hair day? My posts are rarely, if ever controversial even if they do occasionally spark debate.
When I first arrived I wasn't sure how things worked and soon learned that if you don't like something or someone's post or it's offensive, move on. The Steemverse is big enough for all proclivities - with the caveat below.
Illegal/fraudulent activities should be flagged and the perpertrators dealt with.
Thanks for a great post, @abitcoinskeptic
I think the problem is that some people feed the trolls. There is no professional authoritative moderation here. If you are attacked by someone large, you better hope some people like you or they will just say try again.
Some people love Steem for the lack of censorship. I think it is good, but it's also dangerous to be inviting these people. Cesspools don't have much value and they aren't really enjoyable places to hang out.
I'll disagree with people, but if they start getting nasty or intentionally using logical fallacies in their arguments I stop. I can't argue with stupid or rude.
Steemflagrewards is actually giving people upvotes and such when we find someone new to flag. I think there are a few that even allow you to secretly report if you end up on a whitelist incase you are afraid of messing with a crazy. It's sad, but mess with the wrong person and your account could end up in trouble.
I downvote people who spam my posts, especially if they are advertising and not giving a meaningful upvote as compensation. Sometimes I downvote people who pay to resteem low quality posts and are off topic.
If you don't like downvote don't post. At least they aren't annonomous or it would be a lot worse. H
Do you follow @steemflagrewards?
I will delegate 100 sp to them before this post pays out.
I may also follow their merry trail, but i need a better explaination on how to set it up, perhaps on steem rewards, so it doesnt kill my VP
Interesting topic. It makes more sense cosmetically to match an upvote with a downvote option.
I really like that the bear market has flushed so many of the leeches and beggars compared to what this was like a year ago. Good to have this changed now and prepare for the next wave of them. It will be important to have an option to flush them out, correct the behaviour of those who have to learn.
All I wanna do is stay on your good side so I don’t get your downvotes!
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I've actually removed most of my downvotes when approached about it. Some people need to learn how to deal with it.
If you lie and beg, it will stay.
If you start spamming my posts, it will stay.
Best option is to wait a little then maybe throw me a mention in a comment on the post I downvoted. Then I can discuss if I want.
Fortunately these people are too cheap and not liked enough by anyone to start a war, but downvoting me because I downvoted you a single time by a fraction of my vp is not a good idea even if you can afford it.
Do they deserve it? Well I argue they don't deserve post rewards for junk at the expense of others. A lot of really good content producers use bots and I would rather see them able to buy even more upvotes than people swoop in with the lowest quality crap and zero engagement. Engagement is actually a fair way to judge quality asides from amount of words types not including templates.
Hey @abitcoinskeptic
I have been around here for just over a year and have never used the flag. I've never been compelled to use it, I'm not easily offended and I've never seen anything that is so blatantly shite that it deserved it.
Having said that, that doesn't mean that it's not there or I wouldn't use it in the right circumstances. I guess I don't branch out very much and maybe I should.
I absolutely take your points though and you have definitely given me something to think about. You mention Drug Wars. Would you class Actifit in the same mould?
Great post.
Gaz
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Actifit allows you to add some personal information,details and photos. Most people do add a little effort and at least a few sentences describing their health or workout and even a nice photo.
However, if you just click enter daily without adding anything, I would consider that spam.
Technically taking steps or exercise is effort, but to say it is proof of brain or somehow adds value to steem deserving rewards is difficult.
There may however really be some people who only want to see how many steps some random dude took on a daily basis.
I think one of the problems with steem is you can't have specific followers, for example posting that to actifit friends only or posting drugwars fights to drugwars friends only.
Generally, any post with less than 100 new words I consider spam, Maybe 50 with a picture. I'm pretty strict and generally won't follow people if they post more than twice a day including resteems.
Now before you think I am mad I just unfollow, I don't downvote unless they are bidding it or begging for votes. Technically it isnt impolite to downvote people asking for votes.
Contest spam asks for upvotes or resteems or follows to win prizes and it is extremely common, but technically flaggable
I remember about a year ago it was common for people to do posts like camera fund #23 please upvote so I can buy canera, here is a picture of my sandwich.
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All fair points.
It's interesting that I was close to onboarding an artist friend of mine. She is very talented and I think her work would do well on Steemit. She was on the verge of saying yes and asked me to show her what it was about. I left her with my phone for 20 minutes and eventually she handed it back to me saying 'it's full of crap!!' She isn't wrong but it was disappointing, nonetheless.
I guess the downvote system is a move towards cleaning it up and I will watch with interest to see how it goes.
So many people have been hesitant to flag or downvote because they either think it is stealing or they are worried about retribution. I also hear people say don't downvote because you disagree. Well, I only downvote abuse, If someone starts posting about politics, conspiracy, religion or NSFW, I just comment or don't read it. I think a lot of people misunderstand the system.
A large problem on Steem is the trending pages are junk, it's just whoever gets the most upvotes. Take art for example, if I draw a picture and bid it up I'll get trending and I'm hardly a quality artist, I can just afford the 1 or 2 Steem I may lose throwing a 100 Steem bid on something.
Retribution has crossed my mind, to be fair.
I'm all for freedom of speech. People should be allowed an opinion. The line is drawn at personal abuse/attacks. The football forum that I frequent has a saying/rule: Attack the post not the poster! I think it's a reasonable rule.
To often these days people get branded a.....(insert here- ist) for stating observations and opinions and it pisses me off. If the same keyboard warriors get the chance to mess someone up that they disagree with or are 'offended' by then we are all going to suffer.
Like you have said though, there are lots of reasons why people could use the downvote but only a few are valid.
I recommend people join in with @steemflagrewards to make it fun - you get more than the value of your flag back in upvotes to your flag comment!
Ibwant to join using holger80's programs please teach me the settings.
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I don't know if this is what you're talking about - but here's a post about automating flagging with SFR...
https://steempeak.com/cleansteem/@abh12345/all-aboard-the-flagtrail
I do it manually personally, typically whenever I notice my VP in the high 80s.
Oh nice, I just gave them a bit of a delegation and had a go at manual curating. That is more for me I guess.
It's sad that these people just make brand new accounts to do it constantly. I don't know about you, but I didn't find out about using bidbots or start until I had already invested way too much to lose it on such nonsense.
I did have a play about with them early on just to see what it was like, but it was horrible. You can get a negative ROI
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This is an excellent post! I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, so no downvote from me!
The downvotes (or flagging as was) that annoy me are the tit-for-tat whale powergames (particularly when they target innocent people who have recieved upvotes from someone they don't like, by using bots). I think that sort of dick-waving bullying behaviour does the blockchain no good at all.
:)
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I am glad people agree with the more suble gray areas for a downvote.
The whales are doing retaliation and spamming I don't like that.
I haven't got a relatiation downvote and I have never given one. If it stopped at one and was reasonable in proportion, I would probably just ignore. Continuing it doesn't seem to make sense. I remove when asked but they must be sincere.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I think it's a great analysis of why having the downvoting option is actually an important feature for the community to be able to try to check some of the unsavory behavior that goes on sometimes. I saw a lot of people really worried about this because they are afraid people are just going to start using the option like crazy, so I would hope this post might alleviate at least a little bit of that fear. I know there's still the possibility of someone accidentally clicking the button or maybe someone new not realizing how it works, but I'm not really concerned that all of a sudden my posts are going to get knocked just because the button is there.
When I click downvote, I get a popup, it's really difficult to do it by accident.
I suspect a lot of those people either never downvoted anyone or want to make downvoting as inconvenient as possible for whatever reason.
I don't think you have anything to worry about, maybe a onetime downvote from some jerk, but that is about it. Generally, if your conent is good and you complain about the downvote, someone will give you an upvote to negatate it and warn the flagger. It's only gray-zone activity you need to worry about. In my case, a few of the people I downvoted won't get caught by the cleaners or flaggers because their conent is like a 2/10 and not the 1/10 that the cleaners are after.
I thought there was a bit of a "safety" with the downvote button, but didn't want to accidentally hit it to check. Thanks for confirming that! I'm sure like everything else people will get used to it. I don't imagine it's going to change my user experience much if at all. ;)
This is an incredible post. They should have implemented the downvote button a long time ago. And it's even better if I can downvote a percentage like I can my upvote.
If you have over 500 SP you should be able to choose the % on Steemit. I am not sure about the other platforms since I don't have as much experience downvoting there. The feature has been around for a while, but it used to seem like a report feature rather than a downvote.
It's great that they changed because it will serve as a reminder than downvoting is a thing and people should not abuse the reward pool.
If I flag which is not very frequent it is for what I feel is fraud.
The biggest issue I have with downvotes due to reward level is that a person that makes the post has no control over the payout unless they use bid bot and promotion services. The everyday general post has no control over who follows or who upvotes/rewards them.
If a person or a group have an issue with the payout, then the downvote should go on the individual that upvoted the post, be it a bid bot or a vote trail or an individual. Yes the monetary value should be removed from the post, however no other adverse action should happen to the poster when it is only about rewards. They committed no steemit no-no such as fraud or plagiarism, so a downvote for monetary rewards should not affect their reputation, however it does in many cases.
There is already a pop up box with a submit button for a downvote, and information on it as to the reason why for downvoting. Keep the submit button greyed out add a check box next to the stated reasons, and when one is checked the submit button turns on, and then behind the scenes takes over.
Example if reward disagreement was selected rewards are removed and the reputation damage would go on to the top 5 upvoters, and the curation reward for those top five would be removed and returned to the reward pool on post payout time. A note would automatically be sent to the wallets, that blah blah blah post was downvoted and your portion of the curation reward has been removed and returned to the reward pool.
It would not take long before a blacklist was created and the bidbot owners started not accepting from the bad account bidders.
There are things that can be done to curb negative activity, it just takes a willingness to curb it. Of course nothing even remotely close to what I have suggested will ever be implemented because vote selling makes money and anything that would threaten it would never take root.
That is actually a great idea. The people rewarding sketchy posts are sketchy too. Also the people delegating to bid bots that reward sketchy posts are sketchy.
Thats why I think people should justbcontinuallybtry to improve their posting and not just do the minimal to get a pass from the anti-spam crowd. In my opinion enough is being done to fight that.
It is easy to disagree with cheaters, but people who constantly say they are too busy to post quality or say they rarely use bots (but lie), but then bid up their posts anyway...should these people get a free pass because there is worse out there?
Who is going to invest in steem if 10% of the highest paid posts are slightly better than junk? Why should only the bots be punished. If I give you a knife and you stab someone with it, I don't punish the knife for letting you get stabby.
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Bots should not be the only ones punished, individual that upvote sketchy post, and vote trail owners that allow abuse of their trails should also take a curation hit.
If a person can not make a post and buy a bunch of votes, and vote trails and their individual supports have stopped supporting because they get no rewards, those people and their type of post are going to go away. The incentive is no longer there for them.
The fraud/plagiarism check box should completely go on the poster, a memo should automatically go to parties that have indicated an interest in controlling/punishing/correcting that type of behavior, example to steamcleaners or others that fight plagiarism.
Hate speech or trolling activity like wise should go completely against the poster, and a message sent to groups and steemit.inc communications director about the activity.
These are just a few ideas, but likely to never be implemented because of monetary or legal reason.
Taking away incentive for bad behavior is most effective. A multifaceted approach is definitely the best one. But that will require a lot more discussing on downvoting. Also cleaners need to gain more and more power so they can challenge bigger and bigger abusers. No one should be too big to downvote.
The thing you mentioned about legal reasons is interesting. However technically I think it is okay if you look at what upvoting and downvoting is. You aren't actually taking anything away. It is similar to the buying and selling of stocks or Steem. If I sell for lower than you, I am taking away your potential profit by lowering the price, but I am not actually taking away your realized profit. When people post they are waiting a week for their post to be appraised then rewarded by the Steem reward pool.
It's safe to say this topic deserves more attention and I do think downvoting needs to become less taboo. The problem is people think of it as punishment. However if people realize that the reason is to stop crappy behavior and help improve the blockchain overall, I think most can agree.
Not all downvoting is perfect, but I think a lot more negative attention needs to be placed on the people receiving the downvotes than on the downvoters.
Right now if you downvote, inevitably you are the asshole unless its obvious textbook abuse.
I am not a fan of retaliatory downvoting or downvote trolling, but most of the others are fine.
A fraud plagiarism spam checkbox is a great idea, but also including a none of the above is nice too.
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Honestly, I find that SteemIt Inc's priorities are all screwed up.
Instead of discussing meaningless things like this, they should be doing a decent post editor.
C'mon. 3 years have passed and people are still expected to learn HTML Markup Code? What next? Will we be asked to learn Morse Code to make comments, perhaps?
Stop putting the carriage ahead of the horses, SteemIt Inc.
Morse code, .-.. --- .-..
To be honest I don't think changing the downvote icon from a flag top left to a downvote arrow beside the upvote took a whole lot of work. My guess is 15 minutes. I know this because on certain posts the layout formatting still doesn't look great there's overlap on widescreen when people have hundreds of upvotes and large post values
Steempeak has a way better filter for this and even a better editor. I have also read hints Steemit is working on something. It's just funny that small startups that don't have several millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency can develop front end programs better.
The feeling I get is that they just don't want to work. Fortunately, there are a lot of developers out there doing a lot more for Steem than the SteemIt Inc team is willing to do.
If it were not for Busy and eSteem, I would have probably left Steem over a year ago. That editor is unacceptable to me. How can they expect to attract users if people don't even have a basic way to make Bolds or Italics...? 😕
I think they are just too cautious. Also in the end Steemit is not Steem and they do seem to be giving others a chance to develop front end and even back end. It is up to the witnesses in theory. I think it is at a sustainable point and even at rank 59 we still have development which is a promising sign.
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I try to devote a bit of time each week to anti curation... It's a task made easier as @steemcleaners rewards the reporting of bad behaviour. It is just as important as curation, as we can't allow bad accounts to become 'trusted'.
I've recently got into anti-curation to, but with steemflagrewards. I will have to see Steemcleaner's. I like using bots and looking into contests, so I notice a lot of crap. To be honest it's really important, especially when so many people are putting in a lot of effort only to see these people try to ruin the platform with their 'free speech' if it is destroying the value of the blockchain and ruining user experience, it is not really a good thing.
Couldn't agree more... But I don't bother with the 'free speech' problem. Plagiarism really does get up me though... Steemcleaners will also reward you with SP. Not much, but at least it is something.,
I completely understand, especially given your skill set how much plagiarism will bother you. I really get upset when I see them arguing or trying to say, hey I added 2% so it's not plagiarism.
I'm slowly realize now that steemit is not for the faint hearted. 😓😓
The attitude and ways of the "masses" in mainstream social medias is very different compare here.
I've only had 3 or 4 downvotes on my posts and all was from the same person who just attacks everyone. I've had a few comments downvoted before but that is because I posted on posts which were under attack.
To be honest I don't think it is so bad. Better than twitter where I just get randomly banned and when I ask why they just tell me that I was banned.
Yes, i agree that it is not that bad, there's a lot of freedom here. Maybe the downvote bottom can be change to its current position so it can be not too attractive or easily be hit .😎
If people accidentally use it, they will remove the downvote when asked politely. I suggest giving them a mention in a comment on the post they downvotedand not posting in one of their posts until giving them time to respond. It will rarely be an accidental large downvote and patience is key. You have to click confirm and it looks way different than upvote confirmation. I suspect accidents are temporary anger issues, so deal with it patiently.
But you are right, it is tempting if someone expresses a different opinion and you are stressed or angry. However, I do not recommend downvoting for that reason. People will punish you if notified that you are randomly downvoting based on your emotions because no one wants a platform based on fear and disapproval.
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Wow, very good information @abitcoinskeptic. I didn't know much of this. I guess every community has it's own form of under-belly, people looking for a quick buck. Glad for this explanation, now I understand some of the flag-wars I hear about. If they're used to eliminate some of the spam and trash we all see, then they're put to good use. Thank you
The reason the under-belly is hidden is because it is downvoted quickly. I think it will get even better to the point where they give up. Anti-curation is much better now than a year ago. The accounts got more organized and powerful.
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I'm just someone who likes to post stories and hope others like them. That's it. I don't go around looking for anyone to downvote or hurt. If someone likes my post and upvotes me then that's great. As far as I can I give no reason for anyone to downvote me.
This blockchain needs people like you to keep it a blogging platform at heart. I couldn't imagine someone downvoting legit story tellers and writers.
In some cases it is definitely hurting people, but I also look at it as an enforcement option. Sadly, we need rules to avoid chaos.
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Thanks so much for writing this. It helps to clear up a few things. We have put this in the Steem Terminal discord server to help new people understand the ideas of downvoting and flagging.
Ren
Thanks, people need to understand it is primarily an enforcement tool.
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I like the idea of downvoting much more than the idea of flagging. Flaggin tends to say it's only awful if someone dies whereas downvoting lets me voice an opinion on quality.
Thanks for speaking up!
#powerhousecreatives
haha! "Improve thyself!" that's the bottom line for the super lazy and I agree. Thanks for the great post and I really enjoyed reading through the awesome comments!