When the initial purchase of Steemit, Inc. by Tron took place, I was optimistic about a potential "partnership" between the Steem and Tron community. I saw a lot of areas where we could work together, and the sum of the parts would be greater than the individual parts.
I also opposed the 22.2 soft fork that a super-majority of the witnesses implemented, and instead ran my own version (22.3) which restricted Tron's accounts from witness voting, but not their ability to power down or transfer funds. My view at the time was that if the witness vote restrictions were not enough to secure the chain (and Tron tried to power down funds to get around the restrictions) that our path forward at that point would be to start a new separate chain without Tron.
Since the hostile takeover of the Steem blockchain by Tron and the exchanges that used their customers' stake to vote in sock-puppet witnesses, I am 100% opposed to Justin and Tron's agenda. My view is that they are liars and they have put their own self-interests above those of our blockchain and community, and done permanent damage to Steem. They are not to be trusted, and I see zero opportunity to work together with them in any way shape or form.
Let me make this crystal clear: I am 100% opposed to the hostile takeover by Tron and will be actively working with the Steem community to take back the chain.
Could you comment on the adequacy of stake currently possessed by Tron to effect governance of Steem at it's sole option please?
Thanks!
All I know is what is up on https://steemd.com/witnesses. The Steem community has been doing an amazing job working to get community run witnesses back into the top 20 spots. There is still a ways to go. In terms of whether Tron has more stake they are holding back which has yet to be used - your guess is as good as mine.
My understanding from folks that have undertaken the research, and whom I consider reliable sources, is that Tron currently controls ~100M Steem.
Thanks!
That is a ridiculous amount of steem if true for a chain that only has about 370 million steem and a good chunk of that is in exchanges so the impact of governance of ~100 million is incredibly centralized
Yes, it is. Particularly in view of abandoned accounts and folks that have lost keys. I hear about this frequently enough that there is probably a significant amount of Steem unavailable to vote for witnesses. That magnifies Tron's influence some.
Prior to the Soft Fork, I was told Tron controlled 150% of stake available to vote for witnesses. That has since changed, and many more people are now voting for witnesses than were in the past. According to https://steemd.com/witnesses, there was a lot less lost Steem than I had assumed.
Thanks!
Appreciate the info!
Thanks for the timcliff notes! <---- Sheer humor. No hostility or prodding at all!
Glad to see you were being fair minded and then realized later what you eventually realized. Life is assuredly a journey of lessons and at least you have learned something along the way.
I agreed with you originally and am sad to see that you've reached the point of giving up on working with Sun, but trust your judgment based on witness meetings with him and his advocates. I still think all witnesses should revert back to the version before his funds were locked. It's not like he can move them before powering them down. The power down period is now what is securing things. Once that is done, Sun really doesn't have a leg to stand on in his arguments for continuing to vote his own witnesses. He either powersdown and does what he wants with his funds, but can't vote witnesses, or he stays powered up so he can continue trying to wipe out our witnesses. Done.
The version that community witnesses are currently running is the same code as before the soft fork. In some cases the version numbers are different, but the code is the same as 22.1 (pre soft fork).
0.22.4444 is the same as 22.1? How confusing.
Agreed, lol. Here is a post that explains the differences (in the comments):
https://steempeak.com/steemit/@gduran/witnesses-using-different-fork-versions
Thanks for making this statement Tim. After the 0.22.2 fork, you were actually the only witness I was still voting for who didn't run it, because I have valued & respected your actions for the years I've followed you here.
It's unfortunate that our chain has to go through this period of occupation & threat, but I'm glad it's bringing us together and getting people more involved & active than ever before.
Thanks for helping to protect Steem! You've got my support.
Thanks Kenny!
Thanks for this statement! There is no doubt about which side you chose now. Disagreement about softfork is totally different from the current events imo. You are respected with your choice, and now even more respected because you back your community!
Whats the solution???
Are you willing to invest the resources that Steem needs to move forward? Its been months of pain for users of this platform, if someone is going to put millions of dollars into a project isn't it only fair they come with their own biases???
What exactly are the witnesses proposing moving forward, the biggest bears has been Steemit and witnesses cashing out to maintain operation. What solution are you putting forward???
I am working behind the scenes with a lot of other witnesses and stakeholders to try and figure out the best path forward.
Would love your feedback on my proposal to "do nothing".
It is unlikely that the stakeholders in the community will build consensus around that idea. #3 is the biggest sticking point.
When that plan is done, would be nice to hear what you guys have decided.
I also think as a thought leader within this community, you should take a mending role and broker something between community and Justin Sun, I just don't feel like the tone was best.
Justin Sun is also taking a huge risk, this can all go to zero and with any businessman, I don't think that would be in his vision. From what I gather, i believe he is more looking for a return on investment and market Tron blockchain, we should try to see how best we can achieve all those objectives and preserve Steem blockchain.
It is also important to note that Steem path before the announcement wasn't sustainable and the ship was sinking, so witnesses should not even be entertaining business as usual. This is a stake base blockchain, if witnesses want a "hard-SteemExist", they should be prepared to out spend Justin and that isn't feasible as they were not even able to maintain operation before (financially).
We should also not push Justin Sun away, he is the only serious business man that has put in hand up and put his money behind it. He sees value and lets not throw that down the drain. The Steem token needs it, technically and fundamentally this kind of investment removes a dark cloud (financial) over its head and developers and witnesses can at least see a path of them getting reward for their work along with bloggers. I feel like Ned Scott was cornered and probably did what he saw was best for him and the people he was responsible for.
In my mind, that opportunity is gone.
Excuse me?
Huge risk? HE'S the HUGE risk. And the ship wasn't sinking prior Justin, in fact we're OK after a full year of developments.
Justin had their opportunity to be 'nice', now he showed their real intentions. He just wanted to P&D us. 0 Value there.
Let him do what he wants with his stake, evidently we can fight off his voting. At least to a degree where he doesn't have full control. And while he's powering down we need to change governance so it's not 30 votes, but something more manageable.
There is not consensus among the stakeholders to go that route.
Not yet, but governance needs to change. I've heard some talk about 10 votes or something to that degree. I'm sure this can be worked out over extensive talks, like everything here. :P
One of the reasons why I have you listed as one of my Witnesses
Principaled, thoughtful, and well spoken.
Thank you for representing us.
Thanks :)
Thanks a lot for standing with the community !
If there were code changes to limit the power of any large stake-holders but still allow them to protect their interests, could you still see a synergistic future for Tron and Steem together?
No
@timcliff, In my opinion you've always put Steem Blockchain first and it's appreciable aspect. This is super dynamic and historical time too for the Steem Blockchain and Community as a whole. Let's win Collectively and stay blessed.
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Thanks!
Welcome.
I feel very similarly to yourself. Despite my doubts and dire prediction I had hopes for a synergistic relationship between TRON and STEEM to develop. I even proposed a roadmap of sorts but very quickly realised that it would never get buy in from either side.
I think Justin has shown his hand though. A chain takeover attempt was always on the cards, I am only surprised he was able (and willing) to pull in exchange stake to force it. The community has also shown it's determination live on - whether on this chain or the next.
There is actually a lot more at stake here than just the STEEM blockchain and I think the broader crypto movement knows it too.
as always... the voice of reason!
thanks, I kinda wish 22.3 would have been the discussion starter instead of 22.2... we could have reached the exact same stale mate without the level of hostility introduced to this situation.
well, in hindsight that's easy to say I guess?!
100% it is so clear.
I think that if everyone had run 22.3 things may have turned out differently. I listened to the entire meeting of the witnesses and Roy of Tron and I think that some progress was made.
I have thought a lot about that too.
From listening to @lukestokes I believe he preferred that approach too but in the end went with the majority.
In any case what’s done is done so it’s time to move forward. Thanks for your great efforts!
Hello @timecliff
Yeah I was kinda excited when about a new owner for Steemit, right up until I found out who bought Steemit. I was already aware of Justin's methods as I know a few people that were into Tron. If you look at what he did over at Tron and how it was done you will see the same BS in play here.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/tron-community-in-uproar-as-genesis-coins-used-in-super-reps-vote
I hope this saga ends soon and we can move forward in the right direction.
Are you going to move to Hive?
Yes
Thanks for clarifying Tim. Straight and to the point.
Thank you for all you do for Steem.
We hear you. That's good news.
Thanks Tim for your support!
My suggestions for moving forward would be:
1st: The witnesses make a public statement, assuring exchanges that the funds will absolutely be safe, and requesting them to: 1. respond, 2. power down. The post should explain how power down works. Open a direct public line of communication with the exchanges.
2nd: The community buys the TRON 70M stake over a period of a few years, through the Steem Proposal System: https://steempeak.com/hive-111111/@borislavzlatanov/proposal-resolving-the-stalemate-with-tron-steemit-inc-a-concrete-way-of-moving-forward
Let me know what you think.
A lot of communication is already taking place with exchanges. At this point I think they know what the should do, but it is up to them to make the decision.
I don't see consensus around the second idea. It is a good suggestion, but both parties (Steem stakeholders + Tron) would need to agree to it, which I don't see happening.
I see. Thank you for answering!
He, @justinsunsteem sees Steem as his asset. This quaint Steem blog platform seemed just ripped for a flip. Just like a house, with a layer of paint, some good marketing... Then sell before people realise you were not there to stay!
@justinsunsteemit has demonstrated Steem is his asset. Any appearance that it has ever been capable of decentralized governance has been allowed by stakeholders with nominal stake to exercise governance of Steem instantly at their sole option.
Steem is not now, and never has been, capable of decentralized governance, to my knowledge, which is based on statements of highly competent stakeholders, current, and former witnesses.
I @justinsunsteem see Steem and the Steem "community" as my sole property. And I will not give up until this shit coin and shit community is destroyed. All I care about is the success of my own blockchain and that my ego isn't hurt anymore. Let me finish with a quote: "11. Do you like Justin Sun or you just want to fuck him?" Let me know in the comments below and don't forget to vote for my witnesses! #centralisationRocks #steemSucks #tronFTW
Thank you, and let us continue to struggle. 💓♥️💓
Good that you oppose it. They probably trie to voted you to top, then it’s community witnesses to do the hf not sock puppets, did it sound like a good plan?
Good try Justin.
I would not support a hardfork proposed by Tron.
👍 I guess only sheep will
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One of the last scenes of the series 'Firefly' was of an assassin floating off in the blackness of space, where he says 'Well, here I am.'
I reckon that's our current situation vis a vis Steem, if my understanding that Tron has nominal stake to effect governance of Steem at it's sole option is correct.
Can you comment on the sufficiency of Tron's stake to that effect please? Or, make the meme with the assassin labeled 'Steem community'.
Thanks!
It's hard to tell, I see he is continuously powering up and voting witnesses to impact governance even though publicly he lies and says he doesn't want to. The hardfork is almost done, he wants to force it through regardless of the massive risk it will have on the blockchain pushing through a double hard fork (one to reduce power down the one to remove it after they drain the funds).
This is his mistake, HE forced the exchanges to power up knowing full well they will lock customers funds for 13+ weeks. HE is the one refusing to power down and liquidify so the customers can have access to their funds.
Exchanges are furious as they are getting in a lot of heat and he is trying to bail them out with zero regard to the community. Ned is making his rounds around Discords along with Justin to win votes to ensure decentralization is dead.
Refer to my avatar for a judge of how I feel.
I am confident we share emotional response to the extant situation.
My avatar also reveals my attitude to centralized control of society.
If Sun exercises governance absent community agreement, which I believe he can given his possession of ~100M Steem, the exchanges will likely be off the hook - but Steem will no longer maintain the illusion of decentralization, which I note has already been dispelled by the sale of the founder's stake and Tron's exercise of governance of Steem at it's sole option.
How we feel ultimately is irrelevant. The factual possession of stake is what governs extant circumstances. Presently the exchanges allow community witnesses to populate consensus positions. They can, or Tron can, if Tron possesses the stake I have been told it does by reliable sources, eliminate those community witnesses and execute the HF Sun seeks.
I strongly recommend leaving the ball in Tron's court, where it actually is, and preparing to fork to a platform that will enable actual decentralized governance by excluding stake nominal to exercise too much power via witness votes from doing so.
So miss Firefly/Serenity one of my all time favorites.