RE: Water is Not a Fuel: The GEET Engine Scam

[quantumpoker]

and why is a stoichiometric mix a problem? from your link: "A pure stoichiometric mixture may be obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 "

are you concerned that it may implode instead of explode? if combined with air and standard fuel entering the engine the balance will not remain exact due to additional oxygen and other gases present...

Comments

[alexbeyman]

Dateline NBC - HHO scam
The relevant math

Uh-oh, it looks like we're spending 4.1 horsepower creating H2/O2 gas but only getting 3 horsepower back. That's a net loss of 1.1hp which mean's we'll actually burn more fuel than if we hadn't gone to all this trouble.

But wait... it gets worse...

That 4.1hp assumes that our alternator is 100% efficient in turning mechanical energy into electrical energy -- which it certainly is not.

An auto-style alternator is actually only around 60% efficient so the actual amount of horsepower we'll be sucking from the engine to power our cell is going to be around 6.8hp.

Now we find that the net energy return from these "HHO" systems is an even bigger. We're spending 6.8 horsepower to boost the engine's output by just 3 horsepower.

That missing 3.8 horsepower will have to come from burning MORE not less gasoline.

If you feel everybody saying it's a scam is in on a big oil conspiracy to prevent people from improving their gas mileage (so they can sell us more gasoline) then why do we have electric cars?

[quantumpoker]

again, you are describing a system powered by the battery. THAT IS NOT WHAT I DESCRIBED. please re-read the third paragraph of my original response.
the system i describe DOES NOT PUT AN EXTRA LOAD ON THE ENGINE. it RECYCLES HEAT ENERGY NORMALLY DISCARDED.

did i mention conspiracies? no. i described a sytem to produce hydrogen from water using WASTED ENERGY from a conventional engine. that is all.
an alternator does not even come into the equation. you clearly didn't read my words attentively. please try again.

[alexbeyman]

I didn't say you mentioned conspiracies. Examine this sentence:

If you feel everybody saying it's a scam is in on a big oil conspiracy to prevent people from improving their gas mileage

Do you see the "If"? That's called a "qualifier".

the system i describe DOES NOT PUT AN EXTRA LOAD ON THE ENGINE. it RECYCLES HEAT ENERGY NORMALLY DISCARDED.

Can you link me to some materials about this system? Have there been any independent tests showing that it improves MPG?

[quantumpoker]

I don't feel that all naysayers are part of a big conspiracy. Most are probably like yourself, people with some understanding of science that see fundamental problems with claimed overunity systems, and wish to expose bad science when they see it.

as for links to tests of the system i describe, i know of none. I am simply proposing it as an alternative method of producing supplemental hydrogen fuel for an engine, a way to recycle energy usually wasted by horribly inefficient IC engines.

it seem obvious to me that adding extra fuel to the engine will result in extended milage. if that fuel is produced by recycling the engines wasted energy, it must reduce the inefficiency of the engine. Numbers i don't have. the difference may well be small, that i cannot say without building and testing.

[alexbeyman]

it seem obvious to me that adding extra fuel to the engine will result in extended milage.

Maybe it is obvious, if the additional hardware involved weighs nothing. Additional weight added to a vehicle means more gas needs to be burnt to move it the same distance.

The question now is, does the improvement to fuel efficiency offered by such a system exceed the additional fuel cost of moving whatever it weighs? Part of this will be how much water you intend to carry, as water is not light.

Some relevant factors: Stirling engines are ~15-30% efficient. I can't find hard numbers for the efficiency of electrolysis as it's seemingly measured as a function of hydrogen produced over time or something, but every source I have found says "low efficiency". This is the reason why nearly all industrial Hydrogen is produced from natural gas reformation rather than electrolysis.

It's a good idea to recapture waste heat from internal combustion engines for various uses in other parts of the drive train to improve overall efficiency, and indeed many automakers do that. But it would seem none of those methods involve using a stirling engine to power electrolysis of water.

This means either the math doesn't work out (it contributes less in the way of fuel savings than the fuel cost of moving the additional weight) or no auto engineer employed by any car manufacturer in the world has thought of this idea.

[quantumpoker]

obviously the weight of the system needs to be taken into consideration and would need to be minimised. a simple stirling can be made with little more than 2 tin cans and some wire wool.. really doesn't weigh much at all... perhaps an electrolyser could be formed using graphene coated plastic instead of the usual metal plates. it would also not weigh much. by having a small water tank, that could also be kept at a reasonable level.

if you just want to dismiss the idea because no one has done it yet, fair enough... that's up to you i guess...

[alexbeyman]

obviously the weight of the system needs to be taken into consideration and would need to be minimised.

Can it be minimized enough that the energy output contributes meaningful improvements to MPG, though?

a simple stirling can be made with little more than 2 tin cans and some wire wool.

That doesn't sound terribly efficient.

by having a small water tank, that could also be kept at a reasonable level.

"Minimized", "simple" and "reasonable" sound good, but are not math demonstrating that the total weight of such a system does not consume more fuel to move than the fuel it saves.

if you just want to dismiss the idea because no one has done it yet, fair enough... that's up to you i guess...

There is nothing to dismiss yet. I encourage you to build such a device, test it and write an article about your results.