Water is Not a Fuel: The GEET Engine Scam

in #steemit4 years ago (edited)

I've covered a lot of alt energy scams on this blog. Compressed air powered cars, "free energy magnetic motors", water powered cars, you name it. Typically these work to some degree (or can be made to appear to), at least long enough to give a short demonstration to potential investors...but have some critical flaw that the inventor knows about, and conceals.

In the case of air powered cars, it's the range (<5 miles). In the case of water powered cars, it's that it doesn't actually run on water, but on hydrogen which is split out of the water by electrolysis. The problem being that it takes more energy do this than you get back by re-combining the water with oxygen in the fuel cell, or engine. Otherwise you could just pipe the exhaust back into the water tank and you'd have a perpetual motion machine.

This is what is meant when it is said that water is not a fuel, it is an ash. A chemical fuel (or "energy storage medium", if it takes more energy to produce the fuel than you can get out of it, like Hydrogen) is a substance which is unstable (being extremely reactive with some other molecule for example, as Hydrogen is with Oxygen) and can be made to release energy in the process of assuming a more stable molecular configuration.

That is not the case for water. It is already about as stable as any compound can be. Pointing out that it contains both Hydrogen and Oxygen ignores that they are bonded into a new molecule, having already released their potential energy in the process.

Re-separating them in order to restore their potential energy when recombined is like twisting up the rubber band in a toy airplane, or creating any other sort of imbalance which produces usable work as it equalizes. It takes more energy to do that than you get back, no matter what.


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Enter: The GEET engine. Although featured widely on fringe websites like American Antigravity and other free energy, or "overunity" enthusiast communities, it does not purport to be a free energy device (like the magnetic motor also often promoted on such sites, and discussed in my investment scams article.)

Rather, it purports to run on "virtually any liquid" including coffee, beer, and even water. Where have we heard this before? The proposed mechanism behind how GEET operates differs from Stanley Meyer's water fuel cell, but seems to share some elements, such as the production of a gas the properties of which sound very similar to HHO, or "Brown's Gas" (sometimes "Klein's gas") claimed to exist by the water powered car people. You can read more about why HHO is bunk here, and see a list of "water fuel" scams here, including GEET.

David Pantone, the man behind GEET international, took over the business of promoting the GEET engine from his father Paul, who claims to have been given the technology in 1975 by an angel named 'Mrs. Cunningham'.

He received a patent for it in 1998, though no proof that an invention works as described is required in order to patent it. The patent describes a system similar to Dennis Klein's Aquygen which "increases fuel efficiency and cuts pollution by 90% by transferring exhaust heat to the fuel intake.

Pantone claims the instantaneous pressure fluctuations in the exhaust help to create a vacuum that, when combined with the heat, creates micro-magnetic forces, producing a plasma that dissociates the hydrogen from the oxygen in the carburetor." source


source

The appeal of these bogus technologies is strong. "Man invents car that runs on water, government kills him!" (In fact, Stan Meyer died of a cerebral aneurysm due to high blood pressure, but that's less exciting.) "Man invents miracle carburetor which gives 200mpg, but government buys it and shelves it!" and so on.

The interference of the government and oil companies is the non-falsifiable explanation they give for why their invention isn't already in widespread usage. This presses all the right buttons in the minds of people who are already deeply distrustful of the government, and if you tell a crowd of people something which confirms beliefs that are important to them, they will overlook pretty much any red flags that you may not be on the level. For example, pay close attention to the language used here:


source

Typically those who promote bogus technologies make a good deal of money giving talks at various conspiracy conferences, as well as selling schematics, classes and so on. Anything they can sell besides the device itself, because doing so under the pretense that it works as promised would constitute legally actionable fraud (which is why they never go into production). They do often accept investor money however, which is usually what comes back to bite them in the ass, as it did Paul.

In 2005, while living in Utah, Paul was charged with (and plead guilty to) two counts of securities fraud for allegedly ripping off investors for more than $200,000:

"Richard Hamp, an assistant attorney general in the Utah Attorney General’s office who prosecuted the case, told the Report that Pantone’s claims about his engine were “pure, unadulterated nonsense” — the crackpot notions of a “fraud” looking to get rich quick. The engine, for all its apparent mysteries, was really running on re-circulated gasoline left in its fuel lines or still unburned in its exhaust, he said." source

The same thing happened to Stan Meyer:

In 1996 Meyer was sued by two investors to whom he had sold dealerships, offering the right to do business in Water Fuel Cell technology. His car was due to be examined by the expert witness Michael Laughton, Professor of Electrical Engineering at Queen Mary, University of London and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. However, Meyer made what Professor Laughton considered a "lame excuse" on the days of examination and did not allow the test to proceed.[3] According to Meyer, the technology was patent pending and under investigation by the patent office, the Department of Energy and the military.[citation needed] His "water fuel cell" was later examined by three expert witnesses in court who found that there "was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis." The court found Meyer had committed "gross and egregious fraud" and ordered him to repay the two investors their $25,000 source

Investment scams always end this way. Some manage to keep the game going for many decades, like MDI with their AirPods (The compressed air car, not the wireless Apple headphones). They keep releasing promotional materials claiming their cars will be available in the next 3-5 years. When that deadline elapses, they change the year. Over and over, since 2001:


source

There's a pattern to how these guys operate. When you have seen as many of them come and go as I have, you develop a nose for it. GEET ticks all the boxes:

  1. "The government/big oil is stopping us from going into production". ✓
  2. "We won't sell the device, but you can buy classes/plans" ✓
  3. Conviction for defrauding investors, explained away by #1. ✓
  4. Water fuel, "Brown's gas", HHO, "Klein's gas", etc. ✓
  5. Absence of independent testing by qualified engineers/chemists. ✓

I hate to say all this, because what happened to Paul was predictably brutal. Already not in great health, physical or mental, the trial took a huge toll on him. He suffered a number of worsening conditions while imprisoned, and was able to escape sentencing only because he was determined to be mentally unsound.

During this time he amassed a movement of followers, GEET Friends, who picketed outside the courthouse and accused the government of torturing Paul for daring to disrupt the status quo. It is easy to see Paul as a friendly, eccentric old man who was having some fun tinkering in his garage, except that he took a great deal of money from investors under the pretense that his technology really worked as described.

One of those GEET friends, @fulltimegeek, has taken it upon himself to flag all of my posts, because I flagged @geetinstitute. His flags take away about $10, which is the majority of what I make on any article these days, depriving me almost entirely of Steemit income. Was I wrong? There's a variety of opinions on when it is justifiable to flag. I go by the criteria that Steemit use:

GEET is fraud. @geetinstitute aka David Pantone is using Steemit as a platform to attract more rubes, either to give him investment money or to spend $300 on his "GEET technology classes", and $30 on a PDF of plans for building your own GEET engine.

Of course, if you build one and it doesn't work, "it's your own fault because you built it wrong". Or you'll be accused of being a paid government/fossil fuel industry shill. (Never mind that it makes no sense for electric cars to be widely sold today by major brands, but an engine which still requires fuel is suppressed.)

There are of course also many videos purporting to show that it works, but all by the same few accounts. Like American Antigravity and channels run by or affiliated with the GEET Institute, like GEET Newsletter, as well as a few GEET Friends.

Why do I care, you ask? Why do I make it my business to identify, expose and undermine scams? If you're a long time reader, you will know I attended a fundamentalist Christian middleschool. Just because it was the only private school in the area, and my dad (perhaps rightly so) did not think much of public education.

There, I was shocked to be taught young Earth creationism as if it were fact. When I defended evolution, I was mocked mercilessly for it, even after I stopped. Being young and in a tender, formative place emotionally speaking, this was a lot more injurious to me than it would've been had it happened today.

I relented, and pretended to accept creationism. It gnawed at me, having to answer test questions in a way I knew to be false. They made a liar out of me, and it stung. I was eventually awarded a certificate for "most improved". What a joke. I felt so ashamed of myself for being bullied into going along with a lie.

As a result of that experience, I swore never to let that happen again. I swore I would stand up for truth, and pit myself against every fraud, throwing my very body onto the gears if necessary. It has cost me dearly, many times. Many frauds have legions of emotionally invested, devoted followers who swarm naysayers like angry ants. They may have good hearts and the best intentions, believing they're doing what's right, but have been deceived.

People like that took everything from me. They have stalked, harassed and sabotaged me, but I am still here. I will not be stopped that way. I am the uncrushable bug, and a liar's worst nightmare. Even if it costs me everything, even if they come and take away my last dime, I will continue to stand up for truth and to fight against fraud wherever I see it.

If you are so inclined, please help out by resteeming this article. I need that way more than upvotes right now, which are canceled out anyways by @fulltimegeek's flagging. Reporting this on SteemitAbuse would also help.

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just for the sake of argument... it sounds in your post like you are saying HHO gas does not exist..

" sound very similar to HHO, or "Brown's Gas" (sometimes "Klein's gas") claimed to exist by the water powered car people."

quite clearly HHO, ie. a mixed gas containing unbonded hydrogen and oxygen, does exist. take some hydrogen, mix it with the right amount of oxygen, and voila, you have HHO gas.

don't worry, i understand that the energy required to break water into its components (HHO) is greater than the energy you get from recombining them.

BUT. consider this. these apparently magical "water fuel cells" don't necessarily have to get their power from the car battery, and so put an extra load on the alternator, engine, and fuel supply of the car.

let me explain. most of the energy from the fuel used in an engine is wasted as heat escaping from the exhaust and radiator. This heat can be directed to the hot side of a stirling engine. the stirling engine can produce electricity by recycling the heat energy that is normally discarded. this electricity produced using WASTE energy from the engine can be used to produce hydrogen gas using a simple electrolysis cell. the hydrogen can be used to supplement the normal petrol fuel supply.

there's nothing magical about this. no sorcery needed. no fundamental laws of physics being broken. free hydrogen fuel from recycled waste energy.

quite clearly HHO, ie. a mixed gas containing unbonded hydrogen and oxygen, does exist. take some hydrogen, mix it with the right amount of oxygen, and voila, you have HHO gas.

It is the claimed ratio of Oxygen to Hydrogen in HHO that is the problem.

What you're describing is an "HHO fuel injection system" purported to increase fuel efficiency. A little research reveals that this is also, in fact, fraudulent:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3983/4310717/
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/homemade-fuel-cell-for-better-gas-mileage/
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydrogen-generators-wont-boost-your-mileage/

and why is a stoichiometric mix a problem? from your link: "A pure stoichiometric mixture may be obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 "

are you concerned that it may implode instead of explode? if combined with air and standard fuel entering the engine the balance will not remain exact due to additional oxygen and other gases present...

Dateline NBC - HHO scam
The relevant math

Uh-oh, it looks like we're spending 4.1 horsepower creating H2/O2 gas but only getting 3 horsepower back. That's a net loss of 1.1hp which mean's we'll actually burn more fuel than if we hadn't gone to all this trouble.

But wait... it gets worse...

That 4.1hp assumes that our alternator is 100% efficient in turning mechanical energy into electrical energy -- which it certainly is not.

An auto-style alternator is actually only around 60% efficient so the actual amount of horsepower we'll be sucking from the engine to power our cell is going to be around 6.8hp.

Now we find that the net energy return from these "HHO" systems is an even bigger. We're spending 6.8 horsepower to boost the engine's output by just 3 horsepower.

That missing 3.8 horsepower will have to come from burning MORE not less gasoline.

If you feel everybody saying it's a scam is in on a big oil conspiracy to prevent people from improving their gas mileage (so they can sell us more gasoline) then why do we have electric cars?

again, you are describing a system powered by the battery. THAT IS NOT WHAT I DESCRIBED. please re-read the third paragraph of my original response.
the system i describe DOES NOT PUT AN EXTRA LOAD ON THE ENGINE. it RECYCLES HEAT ENERGY NORMALLY DISCARDED.

did i mention conspiracies? no. i described a sytem to produce hydrogen from water using WASTED ENERGY from a conventional engine. that is all.
an alternator does not even come into the equation. you clearly didn't read my words attentively. please try again.

I didn't say you mentioned conspiracies. Examine this sentence:

If you feel everybody saying it's a scam is in on a big oil conspiracy to prevent people from improving their gas mileage

Do you see the "If"? That's called a "qualifier".

the system i describe DOES NOT PUT AN EXTRA LOAD ON THE ENGINE. it RECYCLES HEAT ENERGY NORMALLY DISCARDED.

Can you link me to some materials about this system? Have there been any independent tests showing that it improves MPG?

I don't feel that all naysayers are part of a big conspiracy. Most are probably like yourself, people with some understanding of science that see fundamental problems with claimed overunity systems, and wish to expose bad science when they see it.

as for links to tests of the system i describe, i know of none. I am simply proposing it as an alternative method of producing supplemental hydrogen fuel for an engine, a way to recycle energy usually wasted by horribly inefficient IC engines.

it seem obvious to me that adding extra fuel to the engine will result in extended milage. if that fuel is produced by recycling the engines wasted energy, it must reduce the inefficiency of the engine. Numbers i don't have. the difference may well be small, that i cannot say without building and testing.

it seem obvious to me that adding extra fuel to the engine will result in extended milage.

Maybe it is obvious, if the additional hardware involved weighs nothing. Additional weight added to a vehicle means more gas needs to be burnt to move it the same distance.

The question now is, does the improvement to fuel efficiency offered by such a system exceed the additional fuel cost of moving whatever it weighs? Part of this will be how much water you intend to carry, as water is not light.

Some relevant factors: Stirling engines are ~15-30% efficient. I can't find hard numbers for the efficiency of electrolysis as it's seemingly measured as a function of hydrogen produced over time or something, but every source I have found says "low efficiency". This is the reason why nearly all industrial Hydrogen is produced from natural gas reformation rather than electrolysis.

It's a good idea to recapture waste heat from internal combustion engines for various uses in other parts of the drive train to improve overall efficiency, and indeed many automakers do that. But it would seem none of those methods involve using a stirling engine to power electrolysis of water.

This means either the math doesn't work out (it contributes less in the way of fuel savings than the fuel cost of moving the additional weight) or no auto engineer employed by any car manufacturer in the world has thought of this idea.

did you even read what i wrote? these links describe systems powered by the car battery. i clearly said that is not what i was proposing. please read again, and try to comprehend what i said.

No, I understand you. You're describing an HHO fuel injection system powered by the alternator, not the battery. That still does not fix the problem, as there is no meaningful difference between engine->alternator->battery->electrolysis and engine->alternator->electrolysis for this analysis. You factually wind up burning more gas that way, not less.

please read again, and try to comprehend what i said.

You might be careful about using demeaning language like this. How will it look in retrospect if it turns out that you're the one who is mistaken about this issue?

from my original response: "let me explain. most of the energy from the fuel used in an engine is wasted as heat escaping from the exhaust and radiator. This heat can be directed to the hot side of a stirling engine. the stirling engine can produce electricity by recycling the heat energy that is normally discarded. this electricity produced using WASTE energy from the engine can be used to produce hydrogen gas using a simple electrolysis cell. the hydrogen can be used to supplement the normal petrol fuel supply."

did i mention taking power from the alternator?

No, that's simply the version of this idea I am most familiar with. I would apologize, except that you've been rude.

Waste heat recapture for automobiles is already an ongoing area of development. However nobody is doing it using stirling engines or HHO. Why do you suppose that is? Have they really just not thought of it?

i apologize if i seemed rude. i was simply saying what i meant as presicely as possible.. your response showed that you had missed the point i was making so i asked you to reread it carefully. that is all. no offense intended.

i don't see any waste heat recapture on my car. just hot exhaust and a radiator. oh well....

Not all cars have such systems. Those that do use methods of waste heat recapture that do not involve electrolysis.

Great expose. What's the story with fulltimegeek?

A good friend of mine once absolutely insisted he met someone who developed something like this - a water engine. It was complete with the claims of being held down by the oil companies. He wanted me to take some info to another friend who worked at a major engineering company.

Hmm. I'm still thinking about the first question I asked you though.

I don't know. He followed me before I think but this was my first direct interaction with him. So far as I know he is a regular guy who got bamboozled by David Pantone, who he is pals with. If you put yourself in his shoes, and believe GEET is a revolutionary and vital technology unfairly suppressed by a criminal government, that could make you pretty passionate about promoting it and pretty brutal to anybody who opposes those efforts. All with the best intentions in the world. That's how I figure it anyway.

Ah, that makes perfect sense. Although, I don't like using flagging as a disagree button, he's sorta trying to eliminate your platform. Ah well.

Good article. Nothing can be really work "over unity" but that law of conservation of energy is a scientific law and people are welcome to disprove it. Nuclear power invalidated it and now we have conservation mass energy. I believe in this new law. Secretly, if someone can break this law, one could sell devices like these as batteries for homes, and they would be popular. Then at the end of one's life you reveal that the charger input doesn't do anything!

The truth is not won with closed mouths.

We must speak out against this.

I have commented on the GEET Institutes posts here, requesting that the engine be mailed to me, and other volunteers, so that we can test the engine without any interference from a third party.

I would take it apart, rebuild it, and test it thoroughly, and then mail it to other people willing to test it. We will see how far it gets before it ends up in the trash can.

But first, we will see if this GEET Institute even gives me an answer that isn't asking for money, or is making some sort of excuse.

Science must not be taken lightly.

There is no debate to be had. Either the machine works, and others can freely test it, or it does not, and it is fraud, and the GEET Institute must be condemned.

I'm happy that you stand up for yourself. Not many would do this especially when it has negative effects on yourself. They can't take you down if you don't let them take you down :) thanks for sharing the truth about these scams.

this is a interesting topic

Scams and scammers everywhere!

They are distressingly commonplace on Steemit, and people in the comments often uncritically believe it's legit.

Some like to believe there are 'secret' technologies out there that are being suppressed, but if they really worked then someone would be using them. There would be massive profits to be made.

There's another name for 'orthodox science'. It's called science!

Exactly. Why would water fueled cars be suppressed, but not electric ones?

So you don't think Corruption in the scientific community is possible ? you dont think its possible a multibillion dollar industry oil is capable of buying patents and suppressing them for their own best interest ??

Why can I own an electric vehicle then?

Governments were pushing biofuels more recently, but that means more crops treated by chemicals. It's better to cut what is needed by transport. Fossil fuels are dying anyway

I miss the days when the Patent Office required a functional prototype as part of the application.

Got halfway through and was wondering why payouts were 0 because it was obvious this wasn't plagiarized or anything. I don't want to encourage vigilate justice by getting into reputation wars with whales, so the only advice I have is that you need to go to the chat channel steemitabuse. Someone should be able to help you there. I'll drop a message in there about this problem.

Yea its true, find steemcleaners, they will help you when they can. Good group.

Big thanks. It really means a lot to me.

Pseudoscience debunking. COUNT ME IN. I also love a Youtuber named Thunderf00t. Just pure joy.

Ayyyye another person who is anti pseudoscience on Steemit. Count me in. follows

I'm trying to find more like minded people to fill up my feed. :)

Im truth seker myself and i dont like frauds, but i think that frauds could be found in any area. Many people from the same branche suffer cuz of bad reputation that some frauder made to their branche. So im really careful who to blame. Many times i was a "black sheep" among the "normal" ones and i know that feeling when somebody is pushing you and blaming.

Scammers are the worst when they get caught in a lie, vindictive as all get out. I hope the flag war comes to an end. Resteemed, maybe some bigger feesh will see this and lend a hand.

That's my only hope at the moment.

keep posting no matter how hard it gets, love ur posts

Ahh one of my favorite topics . I recently have been scammed, so you already knowscammers will be scammers. Just keep doing that you're doing because you know something Alex, haters will hate . You stand up for yourself is the biggest thing , and you will realize it . @alexbeyman

Second post - This is an amazing article. I feel so bad for you for the end. America can be so tragic in that regard. It's amazing that you managed to fight through it and become more informed than ever.

Do you know Thunderf00t? A great, arrogant individual who makes a career out of debunking crap like this on YouTube. I'm happy to have found more stuff akin to his work, I need more scientific minds on Steemit!

Following! See you on Steemstem

Yeah, he and AronRa are solid. I feel the same, every day I see hokum posted on Steemit that rakes in $$$. The free competition of ideas is a beautiful thing but that includes the responsibility to go after frauds, or it's like a garden that is slowly overtaken by weeds.

Yep. Add the disincentive to criticize at risk of being flagged to oblivion too, and we have ourselves a long battle... but we can do it!

I've read it. Oh no. I hate drama.
And now... just wIth one downvote cutting all upvotes? That is one scary opponent.

Sir, I commend you for taking the risks involved with posting against the GEET system. I am very small, so small that I could be wiped off the Steemit map, quite literally, by those inclined to suppress any anti-Geet sentiment. So I will not be resteeming this, but only to preserve my meager steemit existence.

Having said that, i appreciate your taking a public position against it. In my real life, I am often the voice standing against the tide of irrationality. Perhaps one day, I will have enough clout to be that voice on this medium. For now, I'm grateful for people like yourself.

DBER

It will be better to use electricity directly. Separating hydrogen and oxygen and again combining them to producing electricity using fuel-cell is loss of energy. The output will be small than the input.

this is wrong this should not be done flagging for flagging

What the hell? Hope steemitabuse helps get this resolved, this is unacceptable.

They said there's nothing they can do. One whale did say he'd think about helping, maybe. That's something.

Whaaa, really?? There's gotta be more that can be done here, this is something this community should absolutely not be tolerating.

I once blogged about the nonsense of HHO and "water-powered" engines, and got all sorts of true believers telling me I was full of crap. And my blog then was small and little know -- even more than now, to be honest. But they came anyway.

It's like stepping on a hornet's nest, haha. Have a follow, always good to know someone else with their head on straight.

Water is not a fuel. The electricity is required to separate h2o into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then used by the engine as the combustion fuel producing water back again. So, the fuel here is electricity not water.

I was fascinated with perpetual motion machines as a kid (and even made a design with magnets, which I could never get right). It is sad that so many people fall for these types of scams.

I think it's a concept that fascinates everybody at some point. It can either be a firsthand lesson in the law of conservation, or for people who never get over it, a black hole that they sink their life and money into, often taking many others with them.

Very interesting post.
I KNOW for a fact that big pharma like big oil surpasses and even kills people to further their agenda. Though this does not mean that what u say here is not true. I can see by the flag that what u are saying is probably a lot more true or they wouldn't do such things.
I am giving you a follow to see what ur up to. Keep doing what u believe to be right. I can always tell.
Bless~*~

I know the government has done shady things. However, it's also the case that absolutely every huckster uses that same story to explain why they haven't put their invention into production yet, or to explain why they were sued for investment fraud.

If "The government/fossil fuel industry is oppressing the little guy, because they want to maintain the status quo" is their entire case for why their invention hasn't gone anywhere, that is a bad sign. Why didn't the government or fossil fuel industry manage to suppress solar panels, for instance? Why are all the big auto makers now manufacturing electric cars, with some swearing to only make electric models and hybrids soon?

It's a big 'ol red flag anyway, which merits closer investigation.

Well solar nor electric cars are anywhere close to sustainable or cheap either, thats why hahahaha
Like I said I don't argue with your point. I hope you don't ever compromise what you believe.

Well solar nor electric cars are anywhere close to sustainable

How so?

Like I said I don't argue with your point. I hope you don't ever compromise what you believe.

You can argue with me. I don't bite. My beliefs are open to change with evidence at all times, and truth is important above all else. Those are the only principles on which I won't compromise.

Fantastic!
I dont argue but I make powerful points. So I will answer your questions and see what happens.
Electric cars nor solar are cheap or sustainable. A prius costs so much more than a honda civic that the gas saved would take 15-20 years to pay for the extra cost all the while it's going to cost more to repair and maintain. Also its running on batteries made from very costly and toxic substances. Most of the electric that its running on still comes from petroleum.
Solar panels are not cheap, made of unsustainably mined substances and only last a very short while before they completely fail while all the time becoming less efficient every year. Then in order for them to practical for any kind of modern household u need lots of batteries which cost even more than the panels and also fail even quicker than the panels them self. They are also made of unsustainable minded and toxic materials.
So.....I stand by my statement in full.
Best Regards~*~

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GEET is a way to attract big investors to catch the next "fuel" before its mainstream

Yes water is fuel but with a huge fall, look how pressure and hot works to create an engine

That's a stirling engine, which operates off thermal differentials. The fuel in that case is the oil in the little oil lamp he fills and ignites at the beginning.

Yes but the fuel in that case is the pressure

No it isn't. The pressure results from the heat supplied by the oil lamp.

Yes it's true. Thinking again the real fuel is the oil

now what is this going on steemit !!

?

I haven't read either their or your posts yet, but I just read as far as

'my dad, Paul Pantone, invented'

Lol, instant red flag. I'll comment again after going through theirs and yours

How so? Did you already know about Paul Pantone? This GEET stuff is all I know about the guy tbh.

The engine, for all its apparent mysteries, was really running on re-circulated gasoline left in its fuel lines or still unburned in its exhaust'

Pantone “exhibit[ed] grandiose and persecutory delusions, complicated by a personality disorder and a history of substance abuse.”

Utah charged him with two counts of securities fraud relating to allegedly ripping off investors for more than $200,000.

80 inventions, including some that sound anything but benign. “One is how to turn water into a detonation device,” Pantone told the Report. “I could level a jail cell with six ounces of water.”

the technology behind GEET was given to him in 1975, while he worked as a carpenter, by a mysterious woman named “Mrs. Cunningham,” who he believes was an angel.

Pantone is synonymous with every parody of a con artist...

EDIT - Just reading yours now - Yeah you've already seen this.

Anyway my point wasn't that he was notorious, but simply that when you say 'my dead dad invented something revolutionary' - It's typically something you can ignore

Seems completely possible to me! Difference is, I can appreciate that the air is 78 percent nitrogen , and liquids tend to have "air" dissolved in it. The amount of air that can be dissolved in water increases with pressure and decreases with temperature. So if you use heat and vacuum, you can get nitrogen gas out of any liquid added to these bubbling setups, like coffee for instance. ICE already run on nitrogen gas from the atmosphere, just no one talks about it. Prove it? Well gas is a hydrocarbon, and the way it works with nitrogen is:
"NITROGEN AND HYDROGEN
Hydrogen can be made to react with nitrogen. Once again, this is a situation not found in nature. Hydrogen ordinarily doesn't exist in elemental form. Even when it is artificially made and it is reacted with nitrogen, the nitrogen isn't being "burned". Rather, it is the substance supporting the "burning." "

http://sciencing.com/nitrogen-combustible-5397514.html

Also, for the GEET case and it's possible "plasma chamber" function:

"THUNDER STORMS
There are also special circumstances in which nitrogen can be combusted. One of these is during a thunderstorm. Lightning causes some nitrogen to react with oxygen, forming oxides.
This is because lightning creates artificially enormous temperatures and pressures. Temperatures under such circumstances reach as high as 30,000 degrees. This ionizes nitrogen and oxygen, stripping them of electrons. Sometimes they will regain their electrons, with no net result. At other times, they combine together, creating the oxides as shown above. The oxides can react, in turn, with moisture in the air. Some of that water comes to earth in the form of raindrops, which enriches the soil."

So it is completely scientifically possible!
Even stars seem to be no exception in using this. Ever see these GEET people also putting sugar packets in the bubblers too? Sugar makes great carbon when burned, which leads to the next mainstream science lesson and what maybe going on in their "reaction chambers"........

"The CNO cycle (for carbon–nitrogen–oxygen) is one of the two known sets of fusion reactions by which stars convert hydrogen to helium, the other being the proton–proton chain reaction. Unlike the latter, the CNO cycle is a catalytic cycle.In the CNO cycle, four protons fuse, using carbon, nitrogen and oxygen isotopes as catalysts, to produce one alpha particle, two positrons and two electron neutrinos. Although there are various paths and catalysts involved in the CNO cycles, all these cycles have the same net result.
The positrons will almost instantly annihilate with electrons, releasing energy in the form of gamma rays. The neutrinos escape from the star carrying away some energy. One nucleus goes to become carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen isotopes through a number of transformations in an endless loop."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle

"Seems completely possible to me!"

That an engine can run on coffee? And that it was given to Paul Pantone by an angel named Mrs. Cunningham? In order for GEET to be legitimate, angels must exist. That's a pretty steep burden of proof to overcome.

Even stars seem to be no exception in using this.

So a foot of piping with some additional metal inside is capable of replicating the conditions inside of stars?

ICE already run on nitrogen gas from the atmosphere, just no one talks about it.

Nobody talks about it because that is not actually how ICE works. The usable energy in liquid hydrocarbons does not come from nitrogen. ICE is air breathing because it needs oxygen from the air, not nitrogen, which as a noble gas is extremely stable/nonreactive.

We don't need to argue about this. The passage of time will settle the matter. Ten years from now, no cars or any other mass produced products based on ICE technology will be using the GEET engine.

Twenty years from now, still no GEET engines being mass produced and sold in consumer products. Probably you will still believe it's because of the government or big oil, even though electric cars are in increasingly widespread use, as are rooftop solar panels, both of which make more sense to suppress as competitors to oil than an engine which still needs fuel.

Thirty years from now, still no GEET engine based products. Maybe by this point you will begin to wonder if you were mistaken.

Forty years from now, still no GEET engine based products. Probably by this point you will realize that the reason for this is that it never worked as promised, the same reason MDI never puts its compressed air cars into production.

However by then you and I will not be in contact. Neither will I be in contact with the fellow who flagged a bunch of my posts because of this dispute. That's a shame. Assuming he has accepted by that time that I was right, and only trying to help him avoid being taken in by an investor scam, he will be unable to apologize to me or make things right.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder. I was just referring to the scientific possibilities in it working in a way you haven't even stopped to consider in this piece. I'm not going to take the time to address all your argumentum ad hominems here.
Don't know what I mean? For example, "In order for GEET to be legitimate, angels must exist." = unscientific and logical fallacy
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

But to address your more productive points:
"So a foot of piping with some additional metal inside is capable of replicating the conditions inside of stars?"
Why not? We replicate light and heat from stars with much less. If it is a "plasma reactor" and stars are an almost entirely ionized ball of plasma, and plasma science is REAL, and we make plasma on earth everyday........so what is your real problem with me suggesting such a mechanism?? bias?

"Nobody talks about it because that is not actually how ICE works. The usable energy in liquid hydrocarbons does not come from nitrogen."
I never said it did, I'm suggesting it adds to the process, the same reason people use nitrous oxide(N2O) to boost engine performance even though they like to say it is for it's oxygen, but if that was the case, people would be obviously using oxygen tanks in their cars instead of nitrous tanks.

I would suggest, do to your past, that you be extra careful not to become a "pseudo skeptic" fundamentalist.

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/

BTW, What are your qualifications in all this again? I mean besides once going to a fundamentalist Christian school as a kid. Just curious as to what your technical background may be.
Take it easy man, don't get so worked up over this stuff, it isn't like they stole YOUR money. After all the people that have paid for motors, plans, and classes, I can't seem to really find any that are as pissed off as much as you about all this! What are you in this for? feeling good about yourself? I just don't understand, sorry if questions come across as offensive, just wondering what is making you tick other than your fundamentalist Christian background. Not looking to argue, just trying to have a discussion on "social media".
Have a great day! And don't let this stuff ruin it for you! :)

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