Yesterday, there was a healthy discussion in the Mavericks Channel about a new way forward with Steem Monsters and specifically the daily rewards. It started with my suggestion to scrap daily quest rewards and introduce a new ticketing system instead.
To my delight the idea was met with some positive feedback so I thought I'd detail it fully here.
The Problem
We are still bleeding too many reward cards and the current system allows bots to farm cards on a daily basis.
There's also another underlying problem in that it's not actually that much FUN to grind your way through daily quests either.
The Assumptions
Bot owner are in this for the rewards only and if grinding get's too hard with no daily rewards they will quit boting. If the bot owners are in this to destroy the game, then this system will not work, as they will continue to disrupt the regular season too.
Automated Tournaments are flexible and completed.
We have an active player base to support this proposal.
The Proposal
Scraping The Rewards
It sounds harsh I know, but instead of grinding a daily quest to receive reward card you would receive a ticket to a rewards tournament instead. These tickets would be none transferable, and could be used almost immediately or saved for a future date.
These Rewards Tournaments would be specially created 'automated events' held on a regular basis (enough to support the current player base), and would actually be the delivery method for receiving card rewards.
Yes, there is one more hurdle you'll need to jump through to get those AWESOME Steem Monster Reward Cards.
And sure the bot owners could still farm tickets, but they will have to actually play some games to win rewards. This could be time consuming for large bot farms. ( The notion behind bot farming is you don't need to spend time grinding as the bot just keeps trying until it wins)
The Tickets
The tickets are none transferable, but have an unlimited lifespan.
And the tickets themselves can actually be a special non-transferable Steem Monster Card so they can appear in your collection and can be used as tournament entry utilizing the already proposed entry fee system for Automated Tournaments.
The Tournaments
For this system to work the Reward Tournaments will need to be held on a regular basis. And , ideally you'll want every tournament to be full, to ensure reward cards are distributed as intended.
I propose a 16 player tournament to begin with, run at 4-6 hour intervals, which could be expanded to 32 players as the player base grows or even held more regularly, like every hour.
The Reward Card Tournaments would be Single Elimination and payouts to top 16. So you only need to prove you are worthy of reward cards by winning at least one more game.
As you progress through the tournament, the chances of earning greater rewards are improved, and create incentive to get better at playing Steem Monsters.
It's expected these automated tournaments would take less than 30 minutes to complete, and would actually help improve the players overall skill level overtime.
This would also be the first introduction to the Steem Monsters Tournament System, where more lucrative prizes can be earned.
The payout structure would be as follows...
The Payout Structure
Ideally we want to decrease the amount of rewards cards distributed through the Steem Monsters ecosystem, to help maintain value for reward cards overtime.
I will work through examples of each league quest payout to ensure the math works out.
Bronze League
Current Payout: 16 players @1 card per quest = 16 reward cards (per 16 players)
Proposed Bronze Reward Tournament Payout: (16 player) = 16 reward cards (saving 0 cards per 16 players)
1st - 5
2nd - 3
3rd - 2
4th - 2
5th - 1
6th - 1
7th - 1
8th - 1
Silver League
Current Payout: 16 players @2-4 card per quest = 32+48+64 / = 144 reward cards (per 16 players)
Proposed Silver Reward Tournament Payout: (16 player) = 57 reward cards (saving 87 cards per 16 players)
1st - 15
2nd - 10
3rd - 8
4th - 8
5th - 4
6th - 4
7th - 4
8th - 4
Gold League
Current Payout: 16 players @6-8 card per quest = 96+112+128 / 3 = 122 reward cards (average per 16 players)
Proposed Gold Reward Tournament Payout: (16 player) = 75 reward cards (saving 47 cards per 16 players)
1st - 20
2nd - 15
3rd - 10
4th - 10
5th - 5
6th - 5
7th - 5
8th - 5
Diamond League
Current Payout: 16 players @10-14 card per quest = 160+192+224 /3 = 192 reward cards (average per 16 players)
Proposed Diamond Reward Tournament Payout: (16 player) = 130 reward cards (saving 62 cards per 16 players)
1st - 35
2nd - 25
3rd - 15
4th - 15
5th - 10
6th - 10
7th - 10
8th - 10
Champion League
Current Payout: 16 players @16-20 card per quest = 256+288+320 /3 = 288 reward cards (average per 16 players)
Proposed Diamond Reward Tournament Payout: (16 player) = 190 reward cards (saving 98 cards per 16 players)
1st - 45
2nd - 35
3rd - 25
4th - 25
5th - 15
6th - 15
7th - 15
8th - 15
I believe these payout structure would both incentivize playing to win and at the same time reducing the reward cards bleeding through the system by around 30%. (With the exception of Bronze League, which maintains it's bleed rate of 1 card per player)
The Discussion
So now it's over to you.
Do you like this proposal and would it benefit the long term future of the game?
I believe this idea further reduces the reward card quest distribution by about 30% and de-incentivizes bots to farm rewards. (Farming tickets might still be a thing, but the account owner will need to compete in a player vs player run tournament to secure rewards.)
And I would appreciate comments from the founders @yabapmatt and @aggroed on whether such a proposal has legs.
My intention is to improve the overall 'game' play of Steem Monsters while maintaining overall card values for investors.
I imagine to further reduce bot involvement we could create a blacklist of bot accounts and provide strategy guides for noobs, to beat the standard decks they play. The Steem Monsters battle interface could even identify the bot accounts on the blacklist during the match-up and provide an an information icon linking to the bot strategy guide.
NB: There was also another discussion relating to changes to the season structure too, but I will outline those suggestions in another post, if someone hasn't done so already.
And I'll leave you with this thought.
"We are all heading to the same Moon" - Aggroed
How pervasive are the bots? And would getting rid of the bots means that it would take longer to match up games? Or that games would be more uneven?
My exposure to Steemmonsters is still tiny compared to everyone else, but I thought that the variation of games and mana levels made it hard to bot? Are bots able to make a different deck for 27 mana melee only games and 16 mana weak magic games? Or do they make one deck and just lose all those games?
Love that you're thinking of new ways to improve the game... I'm still finding it pretty fun to play... but the daily quests do feel pretty grindy, especially if you get a few people surrendering in a row and it doesn't count towards the daily quest total.
There's a specific team which is 15 mana and really difficult to beat.
Silvershield Paladin, Divine Healer, Peacebringer. All level 3.
When the mana cap is higher, the bots add additional cards, like elven cutthroat and cyclops, usually at level 1.
It's a particularly difficult team to crack, regardless of ruleset, even if you know what they're going to play. Easiest is magic, but a lot of new players don't have much magic firepower.
A royal dragon archer would be an elegant solution, Snipe poison taking out the divine healer, then the Peacebringer. There aren't many of those around, though.
Oh yeah, I've definitely come across this deck, and I'm pretty sure I've lost every time.
Totally against this proposal myself for a few reasons. Not against removing the bots which would be great but because even more of the cards and rewards would end up with the top few players.
I love the daily quests as it gives me a reason to play every day and a reason to power up my deck. I do think that the reward system is too top heavy and would like to see a few more cards for the lower players especially at end of season. You want people to get a taste and keep building from there.
If you look at the tournaments being played right now a lot of them are at the same times which only suits certain players. Regardless of level it is the same few people winning all of the time. The people at the top of the leagues are dominating in every aspect of the game.
Want to get remove bots just try to bring in some sort of verification process and let the people keep playing and chasing the daily rewards.
Just my opinion anyway.
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I have to agree with you on this one. I'm also against it, for the same reason. I need incentives to keep coming back every day, and that's one of them. why not eliminate this problem by eliminating the bot farms? That would solve a lot of this. After all, it's meant to be a game. What fun is automating computers to play our game for us? and
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I play the game for the fun of it but for it to be fun I need something to aim for. There has to be an end goal to playing the games which are your dailies.
If there are bots surely any solution should target them and not the players who are actually there to play the game.
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Exactly
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My concern would be that tournaments will not always suit everyone depending on the time they are on, and also just how long the tournaments take to play.
Then there's the bias that tournaments currently have toward those with stronger decks.
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Fair points. The tournaments would be scheduled several times a day for the current player base size so everyone should find a suitable time to play. Plus, you can save your tickets and just play on weekends when you can concentrate more.
There is no bias for the stronger decks. You win one game and you get the rewards you would have anyway. If you are better you earn more.
These rewards are incentive to play and improve your skills, if you don't want to improve you'd have to ask yourself, what are you doing here.
Each account can only get one ticket per day, so just play the rewards tournament when the 'top' players are in bed :-P
PS: And 1 game in single elimination takes 3 minutes. So win your game, collect your reward and leave the tournament. If you want more, play longer.
I like the idea because it makes sure the bulk of the rewards cards goes to players and takes away from bots but I question how sustainable it is. I have allot of experience with running tournaments and leagues (Not SM) and some of the common complaints of league players being forced to play tournaments as rewards for winning in leagues are:
The biggest one is ..... allot of league players don't want to grind tournaments after grinding the leagues. They put their time in during the league play and feel as if they shouldn't need to play tournaments to be given their league rewards.
Time Zones ..... I know you mentioned 4/6 hour breaks between games but time zone problems will still be an issue.
If the freeroll rewards games are capped (16/32 every 4/6 hours) this will cause problems due to the fact more (allot more) then 16 players will want to play. Waiting to possibly join the next game in 6 hours will be a major pain and it also causes us to run into time zone conflicts. The 16 man model will only work if we had continuous games pop up (once one has completed/started another one will open for registration). The continuous games would also solve the time zone issue..
My suggestions
If your model gets used I would prefer we don't win a daily ticket but instead we win a ticket for playing X amount of days. For example 1 ticket for 3 days play, 3 tickets for five days, 7 tickets for 10 days play or some sorta variant to that.
Edit: With what you are suggesting I actually think continuous 16 man capped games would work since what is essentially happening is the 16 players are playing for the rewards they would have received in their daily and is likely the best way of going about your suggestion. IMO One game scheduled every 4/6 hours would not work.
Still lobbying for the ticket for x days idea I see :-P
Ideally I'd want the rewards tournaments every hour but we aren't big enough for that yet. Soon Moon.
And hey if people just want free cards then do we really want them? Plus you could make daily quests 4 matches and the 5th is played in the tournament, it's an easy fix.
It's the concept I'm promoting. The detail is negotiable. :-D
Everything is still on the table.
I am thinking more of a sit and go format not a tournament. Tournaments get canceled if the min players aren't reached. Sit and goes stay registering until the number of required players is met and then the game plays.
Daily quests are appealing because of the flexibility to play whenever your schedule allows. That dynamic makes people happy and keeps them playing. If you cared for the longevity of the game then why would you want to completely ax that aspect of it?
Wouldn't it seem to be a reasonable option to limit it across the board to 2 cards per day or something of that nature for everyone regardless of your ranking or level? The daily quests should not be a method for rewarding your ranking level, the daily quests should be considered an extra layer or perk of the game that keeps everyone happy. The daily quests shouldn't fluctuate for those rewards and should be consistent.
If you want to implement higher rewards for tournaments then that would be the place to do it. But trading daily quests for regular tournaments is still going to "bleed" reward cards too based on some of your distribution numbers in relation to frequency of these tournaments. It just shifts to benefiting the non-bots (which I don't think anyone would argue being a bad thing) and of course the more skilled players who consistently rank high enough to win those rewards.
Personally I think the implementation of the tournament style reward system should complement the daily quests and not replace it.
Also, this is just a person comment, I don't know what your relation is to Steem Monsters and whether or not you're part of the staff or on the team but from someone who has spent a lot of time in corporate environments and analyzing how to bring things to market or care for your customer base, I would caution you to be careful how you word comments like this above because all you're going to do is upset people and make them resent the game and the people involved. If people don't believe in the leadership, you'll find more problems on your hands then just "bleeding" rewards cards.
I think it would be really hard and frustrating to try to get by and/or make a whole heck of a lot of money just from free cards. You generally still need to spend some money to make it to those higher levels and win more. Besides, the structure of this game and the otherwordly number of cards you need to level up in some cases almost requires there to be some method of obtaining free cards for the players. It's not a realistic structure and becomes overly expensive to play in many cases. I would just suggest thinking about the messages you're delivering a little more and considering things from all angles before sharing your person feelings.
I'll try to not take it personally, and I am not affiliated with Steem Monsters. I am simply a player looking for solutions to the Elephant in the Room.
I have worked in corporate for over 20 years, and have dealt with the BS that goes on in there. But that is no longer the person I am.
If you cut the rewards to 2 cards across the board there will be a riot. But I suspect you know that having corporate experience yourself.
The daily quests would continue as before, but to claim the rewards, you'll at least have to win one more match in a rewards tournament format. Played when it's convenient for you.
Just another small hurdle, whilst at the same time introducing people to the idea of Tournaments.
Thanks for your input. I have actually given this considerable thought, and being an active member in the community for quite sometime it's possible I understand the feelings from the different segments more than you can imagine.
This idea won't please everyone but I feel we need to draw line in the sand and make substantial change to a more sustainable model.
I do not question your intentions for trying to make this a better game and for taking an active role in conceptualizing these enhancements. I meant only to cause this conversation to pause for a moment and consider other thought processes.
I had seen some people sharing the link already in various places with some not so great feedback/comments which is why I gave it a good read.
I do agree that tournaments need to become a focal point for the game, I do agree that bots are annoying and that people hate them but I also see that if they weren’t there then wait times could potentially increase quite a bit across different ranking levels and cause issues with the regular gameplay, and I also agree that the current reward structure is pumping out cards at a massive rate.
Changing rewards payouts for the daily quests would cause a riot up front, agreed, but in a system where you also implement reward based tournaments you’d then have tournament rewards, season rewards and daily quest rewards. That’s a lot of rewards.
The problem is that you need all these things now that they’ve been part of the game for a little while now and that people have grown to like them. I think people would adjust better if they still had the ability to get something out of the daily rewards, even if it was a flat rate across the board then if these were scrapped entirely.
The daily quests I still think shouldn’t be dependent on your ranking level and rather a just a standard reward for everyone. I think that was a mistake up front when this was rolled out and set unusually high expectations from
the players. There should be a significant different between daily quests and season long based rewards which would cause the player to want to continue to play even after they’ve completed their daily quest while also distributing less cards and protecting the value of the cards a bit more.
These are just all my thoughts obviously and again are just meant to make people take a step back and re-evaluate the big picture and what’s truly best for the game and everyone in it. No customer is too small and we should be trying to keep as many people around as we can.
I agree about the daily quest rewards paying the same for everyone but its likely to never be changed back to that model. The season end is what should be staggered not the daily. I have been saying it for a while now, Steem-Monsters biggest issue is its own generosity. It started with giving away way too much and are stuck in that loop although they are slowly crawling out of it.
It was only a week ago that I talked to Matt about the bot problem. He told me the bots were needed to ensure a smooth gameplay, as there are not enough playersthat play at every time of the day.
Living in Western Europe (GMT+1), my daytime is nighttime in the US and the other way around. And the major part of the SM players lives in the US.
At the end of the previous season, my level 1 account played against bots 38 out of 40 battles.
I admit, i wasn't happy about that, because the bots in silver are all.level 2/3 and basically unbeatable with an incomplete level 1 deck.
I did my fair share of complaining about the use of bots.
If your idea would be accepted, it is game over for me. I never thought I would actually defend the use of bots, but in this case I have to. Take the bots away, and there is hardly a human player around in the lower levels.
And what do you think the odds are that I actually win something in those tourneys, with my incomplete level 1 deck?
If you're all really that desperate to work out all the small accounts that don't have hundreds or even thousands of Dollars to level up their deck, and make SM a game for a select group of the rich and fortunate 'elite' only, stop making proposals like this and just be open and honest about it. Stop selling level 1 starter decks and make people buy a level 3 deck for $100 or more before they can enter the game.
I'm so sick of all the excuses and so called improvements which only benefit the people with a truckload of money. If the game was meant to be only for the fortunate few, it should have been made clear from the beginning. That would have been easier to accept than the fact that people were pfomised they could build their deck by playing. First it was XP that could be gained. Then free booster packs were handed out by the hundreds. When the free booster packs were taken out, you could at least earn reward cards to build your deck a bit. Next step was to limit the number of reward cards an now this...
People were promised the world, and every week, a new rule is made up to make sure the people without a truckload of money are doomed to stop playing.
Either be fair, or be brave enough to speak the truth.
Found in one of your comments above:
Okay, message received.it would have been fair if that message had been spread 6 seasons
Thank-you for your input. The bots are indeed a way to ensure battles were available when you wanted one, but I believe they should be controlled by Steem Monsters and setup with moderate teams and not one to maximize rewards.
The reason why you find yourself playing against the bots all the time is because the 'game', can't keep the new players around long enough for you to meet them.
And I have always been pro 'free to play' here on this platform. The changes I suggest are to first eliminate the bot abuse, and with cleared decks we can start to attract the players you so desire in your matches.
I would actually like to see matches based on summoner level, rather than a range of levels. I've said this from Day 1 (but it continues to fall on deaf ears)
However, as we grow the player base I'm hoping this will eventually be possible.
There was also another discussion, about having several leagues during a season, and instead of moving up to a new level where it's unlikely you can compete, you stay in that league competing for your own Top 10 placing.
Then maybe next season if you've improved your decks you might decide to move up, or just stay where you are and enjoy playing at that level.
So this is just a small piece of the puzzle, and if we don't figure out how to retain users, the game is dead anyway.
And yes, if people are here to just collect free cards, then they are here for the wrong reasons. I'd like to think we are building a community of people who enjoy playing the game, and the rewards are a bonus.
I too wasn't happy when we lost the booster rewards and lost direction on gaining XP as promised, but it is what it is.
Again thank-you for speaking out. You are not alone in your thoughts.
And if enough people complain and want to keep the status quo, as it seems you do, then I'm happy to stop lobbying for change, and will leave you to it.
But I suspect without a long term working game model, it will be 'Game Over' for me too.
I am completely with you when you say the bots should be owned by SM. Last week, I gave Matt a list of a series of +20 bots owned by the same player. I also asked him if this was a cooperation between the player and SM. Apparently not.
So I don't really understand why they don't take action against this and set up their own army of bots instead. It would definitely save them quite some reward cards...
Thanks for your more than decent reply to the above comment I wrote rather impulsively - in the heat of the moment, as you can say. My apologies for that.
Without an instream of new users, and existing users leaving, it migt be game over for everyone sooner than we had all expected.
I agree that the game as it is now, is probably not sustainable.
FYI, i also own a higher level deck. The one I was talking about in the comment is a deck I created as an experiment to see if it was still possible to grow your account without investing other money than what you pay for the starter deck.
Because I stick to my point that was one of the promises that was made when the game just went live.
I need to give it some more thought, but at first glance, the 'other pieces of the puzzle' do make sense to me
I'm not a mav, and although I sometimes follow up on the conversations going oninthe mav's house, I do not always have the time to do that.
It might have been useful if you had added a little footnote in your post about the other proposals you just mentioned in your comment. Because you only gave a small chunk of info that made it sound like it would become impossible for newcomers to survive.
And that's what we don't want. I mean, we all started with a starter deck and free cards as a reward. Once we decided we liked the game, we were prepared to invest in it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people should be able to 'try before they buy'.
IMO, the pool with potential players on SteemIt is as good as drained. It is high time to set up a series of quality promo campaigns to the world 'outside' (more than enough SteemIt users with a history in professional marketing to make it an effective campaign that targets the audience that the founders want to attract).
I don't have access to stats, but my gut feeling says that the longer they wait to target the masses (and I don't mean a banner on 1 or two sites, I'm talking about a huge, professsional marketing campaign), the bigger the chance the chance that there won't be a lot of people left from the existing userbase. But that's just my two cents...
To me using the reasoning we need the bot farmers due to our player base is bollocks. SM can easily deploy their own site bots that take 0 rewards. Players will be much more accepting of site owned bots then player owned ones. Make them easy to beat so they never leave the level they were intended to help with starting games. We have to remember these reward cards are capped so allowing bots to claim oodles of them isn't good for the game. I gave a perfectly good solution to the bot problem which I will outline below.
Human Check Done By A Human
Captcha is out of the question because many believe its centralized and the devs simply don't want it. Banning is out of the question .... Nuking cards is out of the question because it goes against the this is a blockchain game crowd. So with all that in mind .....
Lets have human checks. If an account has been playing for XX hours straight then a pop up with a SM team member starting a discussion with the dedicated player starts. If they don't respond then kick them from game play. We make the XX hours high enough so The majority of human players will never be bothered with getting a pop up. Once a player gets kicked the frequency in which they get pop ups increases until its determined a human player is actually using the account.
Maybe... it might indeed be a solutjon. But some people have bots that don't run all the time. And I assume it isn't that hard to add some code that makes the bot 'sleep' for a while and then start over again.
I did notice some new bots today. One was called Noobhelper (or something like that). It was an easy-to-beat level a bot in Silver 3.
It was a welcome change for once :0)
My suggestion is just the base model of it. After implemented the next step would be ... The tables getting policed via the players sort of like they already are except we could have an official email/channel to send in the compiants. XXX amount of complaints about XXXXX account and they get monitored and if needed a pop up as well. My suggestion comes from other gaming industries tactics of fighting bots and keeping in mind that centralized solutions can't be applied.
I think it's indeed important to see how the other gaming industries deal with things. After all, they have the experience...
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I like how much thought you've put into this; and I think it would likely get rid of a heap of bot activity.
Minimising the impact of bots can be tackled two ways. By getting rid of the bots, or by beating them.
Intuitively it feels like knowing in advance which team your opponent is playing should be sufficient to win.
I'd like to see a This guy's a bot button on the Battle results popup.
So the loser can hold those ranking points to ransom; with the winner given 1 min to complete a captcha. If he does, he gets the points, and a little extra for the bother.
If he doesn't, the account loses the points, the win toward his daily quest, and any win streak bonus.
Using the button maliciously would backfire, as a human opponent would get bonus points for completing the captcha, perhaps followed by a one hour immunity period. .
Yeah I made comment in the post about creating a bot blacklist and letting the player know it's a bot, with some possible deck solutions.
But I like this idea as it goes one step further. :-D
A captcha is something i don’t want to see in steem monsters. This guy's a bot button is a better idea - delegating bot hunting to the community is a solutions/strategy that will benefit gamers and the house.
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A mandatory captcha at the start of each battle would be a terrible idea; but being occasionally challenged on it, with a small bonus for your trouble, wouldn't be a deal breaker.
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I get where you are trying to go, and honestly a ticket to fight doesn't feel as gratifying as a slot machine reward or winning at a random lottery. But there is a lot of merit to your proposal. Simply the time you have to put in after getting the reward item... comes after you get the ticket. Cards or dec come after the grind. and even if there is a secondary reward after the ticket completion. Many users are left with the feeling of yup i just jumped through a ton of hoops for... ding yes 2 cents per hour.
Solution? Any system can be bot-ed and I have seen many in the past that did wonders at pissing off communities. Single accounts, block possible income streams for the developer counting on multiple purchases of service. Reporting bots, well new staff to handle the influx of reports.
If there were an answer, i'd suspect it lay in the original design of the system. Detecting 3rd party bot ware, measured response time tracking, in splinterlands case the identical use of cards for excessive number of plays hundreds, still humans can be payed to do the same thing and really that is what annoys me the most. Changing up daily commbat, more random unpredictable prompts for user actions. These 'i am human checks' all time consuming and annoying to the regular user as to the bot developers. Grinding through bronze is really frustrating, when you see the same players or same cards and hundreds of awful cthebot014 etc names. And you know the moment you step into a fight and there are 3 numbers in the name, the chances of it being a bot have gone up 75%, better name rules might help here.
Best of luck to players an developers for overcoming the frustrations and happy gaming to you all.