Hive5 - IDEAS for Public, Witness & Dev consideration v1.2.1

in Deep Dives5 months ago

The Hive5 Project

Improving Hive thru Natural Law ⚖️

The Hive blockchain has proven that free transactions and a self-sufficient blockchain are possible. Sadly, it has not fixed the problem of increasingly Powerful groups or individuals Ruling over others.

The laws of nature are quite simple. With abundance, greed is unnecessary. Nature seeks equilibrium. Power is limited. Bullies are not tolerated and on its own, balance is maintained...

☯ Yin, Yang.

Ideally, think of the Hive blockchain itself as a world of various online/offline networks, free of an Oligarchy, with free and open "hotspots" to build in and form lifelong friendships. Hive Communities & Apps therefore are its self-governing cities, neighborhoods and businesses built onto that free and open network, with their own rules.

Hive Communities & Apps might have rules that you agree (Contract) with to obey. If you break your Contract with them, then they have every right to kick you out or punish you in some way as per the Contract terms that you agreed to with them. If you don't like their rules then you can always move to a different community or start your own.

None of us Contracted with Powerful groups, curators or individuals to use the Hive blockchain. However, thru FEAR they are able to CONTROL and INFLUENCE most users.

Survival of the fittest.. hence "Hive5"

We learn by trying new things...
Steem + Hive + Whaleshares + Golos + Blurt = Hive5

The Road to Sustainable Growth

The Hive active userbase and market cap is shrinking, but over time, we have learned why. Hope is not lost though as we will point out in the details below.

(Hive)⚡Power delegation must be individual, time-limited, AND CONSTRAINED.
Otherwise, without fail, Oligarchies with combined, endless Power are formed.

Naturally, code is Law. Through the Community ideas below, we will demonstrate that it is possible to grow sustainable, self-governed, profitable Hive Communities & Apps on Hive WITHOUT FEAR of Powerful groups, curators or individuals.

⚠️ NOTE: These Hive5 posts are for IDEAS and ways that WE as Hivers feel could get Hive growing again, WITHOUT FEAR. Your ideas, concerns and reaffirmations in the Comment section below will help to improve and refine Hive as we go, so please SHARE YOUR IDEAS below as well! 💪🤠

Possible Fixes for Known Issues 🚨

  1. The downvote (DV) feature
  2. How income is affected from DV’s or upvotes (UV)
  3. Your reputation score can be nuked by one user with a lot of Hive Power (HP)
  4. Voting on users just because they have a lot of Power, a high reputation score or wallet balance (groveling, kowtowing)
  5. Your kids seeing NSFW content
  6. Vote counts are not from unique individuals
  7. Bots that always Vote a user, regardless of content posted
  8. Earnings and losses from Curator Votes (groveling, harassment, censorship, lobbying and corruption)
  9. DHF Proposals (waste, fraud, corruption)
  10. HBD use, peg “stability” and future viability (CBDC’s incoming)
  11. HP and Resource Credit (RC) Delegations
  12. New Feature: Cross-chain swaps needed (IBC, ILP, and HTLC ACCS); Eliminate our reliance on middlemen/cex’s

1. The DV feature 👎

  1. Helps to hide NSFW content; Murder, pedos, porn, etc
  2. Helps to de-incentivize doxxing, rewards pool double-dips, aggressions and threats, plagiarism (from ai too), copyright and IP infringement, ID theft/deception, cybersecurity threats, etc
  3. Provides yin/yang balance of opinion, regardless of post age
  4. With HP removed from voting (see 2B below), more users will be willing to DV the content mentioned above WITHOUT FEAR of becoming a target for DV whales, and...
  5. This also eliminates the need to pay hivewatchers/spaminator.
  1. Currently reduces income (this could also be a Pro)
  2. Reduces user reputations (this could also be a Pro)

2A. How income is affected from 👎 DV’s or 👍 UV's

  1. Limit someone profiting from murder, pedos, porn, doxxing, rewards pool double-dips, aggressions and threats, plagiarism (from ai too), copyright and IP infringement, ID theft/deception, cybersecurity threats, etc
  1. Deters user from posting (this could also be a Pro)

  1. Earn an income
  2. Increase your reputation
  3. Encourages user onboarding & FREE, word-of-mouth marketing/meetups
  4. Creates a self-sufficient economy of values at scale
  1. INITIALLY (until DV's bring yin/yang balance), it might encourage someone to post NSFW content, murder, pedophilia, porn, doxxing, rewards pool double-dips, aggressions and threats, plagiarism (from ai too), copyright and IP infringement, ID theft/deception, cybersecurity threats, etc

2B. How MUCH income is affected from post/comment Votes? 💰

  1. How much $HIVE you earn (or lose) with Votes, should not be based on HP anymore. (Hive)⚡Power delegation must be individual, time-limited, AND CONSTRAINED. Otherwise, without fail, Oligarchies with combined, endless Power are formed.
  2. The amount of $HIVE that is given to (or taken away from) a post can be weighted by:
    1. the average price of $HIVE in USD over the prior 24 hours of the post (rather than based on a timezone). We'll refer to that timeframe as "today". If usd price is unavailable from api’s or site scraping, then the last 3 days usd price gets averaged, and
    2. the remaining daily budget available for UV’s for "today", and
    3. divided by the number of active users on the chain in the last 24 hours.
    4. In other words, the value of everyone’s UV or DV "today" (because of $HIVE usd price fluctuations) will be equal, but also worth less and less as "today's" allotment is depleted (yin/yang balance).
  3. DV's (when possible) will return that proper, equated amount right BACK INTO the daily budget for use by other UV’ers taking place in that day's timeframe. Why? Imagine Hive blockchain only has 50 posts and $50 available to distribute today. If 1 post gets a billion UV's, then those UV's must be worth less and less as each one comes in so that other users actually earn something. No one post can earn more than that posts percentage of the total posts that have been placed in the last day. DV's reversing/returning funds also helps to increase a new user's income.
  4. Getting Hidden/Muted: If this guy gets 10 UV’s and 16 DV’s (51% more DV than UV), his individual post or comment will be flagged on-chain as "unliked" and muted by default until enough UV’s are received to reveal his post again. This is not time limited. Actual rewards payouts will remain at 6.5 days.

2C. Rights of the Living & Natural Law 📜

I mentioned Contracts above. Unless you willingly give (answer, write, say or sign away) your Power to someone (a CONTRACT), they have no right to force-ably control you physically, financially, or otherwise, unless of course you have justifiably endangered or harmed the life of a justifiably innocent living man, woman or child.

  • LAWS can be en-forced upon you due to Contract.
  • RULES are void of Contract, but if broken can deny you of services.
  • If you answer to a perceived "authority" or agree to obey, then you have formed a Contract and some punishments may become justifiable.

An example to ponder: If you’re an owner of a corpse-oration of some sort with Contracted workers or employees, then you have every right to control what value they must provide for you and the payments that your Business provides for them. Both parties voluntarily agree to a CONTRACT.

That owner however, no matter his perceived Power or wealth, has any right to force his will on others outside of his Business, in his community or throughout the world without a contract. His vote (UV or DV) has equal value with everyone else’s vote.

If you want to post controversial material, the blockchain itself doesn't care, but there are appropriate places for you to do so and there are plenty of Hive Communities available to choose from: Artists, Writers, Conspiracy, Science, NSFW... you name it, and they all have their own RULES. Posting in the wrong community results in DV's, so find a community with like-minded folks and form lifelong friendships.

2D. Deter Bot Voting 🤖

Deter automatic Votes by forcing the Voter or Bot to “sit” on the post they are going to Vote on for at least 50% of the time that it would take the average, UNIQUE living visitor to read the text and images on that post, before their Vote will have any effect at all. Front-end UX could even disable/grey the UV and DV buttons until the proper time has passed and put the sit-time remaining into a tooltip over the button.

A “UNIQUE” living man, woman or child (not a bot), can be determined and scored via IP addresses used, diverse IP’s over a short timeframe, current time, custom_json, low follower counts, lack of avatar image, weird username with no recognizable word in it, reputation score under 35, account age, no user description in the profile, irrelevant or repetitive/spammy comments, low comments on their posts, uneven distribution of their Votes and many other variables. Youtube, Reddit, the Fediverse network and others work in a similar way to determine realistic, unique view counts.

🚩 Note: If an account gets “flagged” as a bot, that user just needs to do a few quality posts or comments to get their reputation score up, new avatar image, profile description entered, improve comments, ip address renewed, etc.

3. Your reputation score can be nuked 💥 by one user with a lot of HP

  1. After HP is removed from voting, reset all reputation scores that got downvoted to a negative number to zero (0) to give them a second chance.
  2. We have seen brand new users (that have millions of followers outside of Hive) finally join Hive, only to get their initial 25 reputation score destroyed on their first day down to a -4 reputation score because of their research/opinion post on covid/coronavirus, flat earth, the Jewish faith, the President, chemtrails, Adolf Hitler, moon missions, the NWO, etc which hides/mutes all of their posts. Recovering from a negative reputation score is essentially impossible and the will to recover from that is very very low. That is not “Freedom of Speech” at all, it absolutely creates yet another advocate AGAINST Hive, and they'll scream censorship to all of their friends online and locally. It not only creates FEAR to post your opinions, but it also creates haters of Hive. They will go out and bash Hive every chance they get.
  3. (Hive)⚡Power delegation must be individual, time-limited, AND CONSTRAINED. Otherwise, without fail, Oligarchies with combined, endless Power are formed.
  4. Reputation scores will start to normalize organically with non-HP based voting.

4. Voting on users just because they have a lot of Power, a high reputation score or wallet balance (groveling, kowtowing)

  1. This perception will begin to fix itself automatically over time as users notice the yin/yang rebalancing and proper weighting of votes, no longer controlled by those in Power.

5. Your kids seeing NSFW content 👀

  1. Parenting is everything.
  2. FEAR of becoming a target of DV’ers has been removed, due to Voting no longer being controlled by HP, therefore many more people will be willing to DV a post to mute it if it contains such content. See #1 above.

6. Vote counts are not from unique individuals

  1. Did 100 people really just UV my post? WOW, was it really that good? Or was that one guy who’s butt I had to kiss to finally UV me? Curator accounts with endless HP delegated to them must end.
  2. Discovering posts of value comes from individuals. A post shows that 100 people gave it an UV (or DV), but that is not the truth.
  3. Bots must be stopped. See 2D above.

7. Bots that always Vote a user, regardless of content posted 🤖

  1. We seek truth. Not skewed numbers.
  2. Easily fixable. See 2D above.

8. Earnings and losses from Curator Votes (groveling, harassment, censorship, lobbying and corruption)

  1. Did 100 people actually read, agree with and enjoy my post? Or was that one Curator who made a decision to vote with the Power of 100 people? That's not realistic, truthful or indicative of actual value.
  2. Did 100 people really HATE my post that much? Or was that one Curator who made a decision to vote with the Power of 100 people to destroy me?
  3. Users will self-censor when they FEAR a DV (especially DV's from a Curator). See 3.2 above.
  4. Realistic voting must come from individual, unique, living users to acquire truthful opinion of a post's value.
  5. We must do away with Voter complacency. Hive has proven that delegating your Power to someone (especially when that delegation has no time-limit) results in complacency.
    No Vote at all is much better than inaccurate votes.
  6. Do away with Curator accounts; One vote per UNIQUE, living user who takes enough time to actually digest the post (see 2D above) and decide if it has value, or not. This reveals truth and realistic view counts helping to indicate popularity.
  7. People traditionally vote their Power to someone else so they'll be given free money, favors, etc. That never works out long term.
  8. One vote per unique, living user - New users (especially in poorer countries) will no longer have to worry about groveling for income or "getting lucky" with a big Curator.

Everyone gets an equal chance with One for One voting, AND a more predictable, FEAR-free, sustainable income.

9. DHF Proposals (waste, fraud, corruption)

For example:

  1. Contracts cannot exceed 1 year.
  2. Remove HP from the voting equation.
  3. Implement One for One voting (see #8 above)
  4. No monetary value allowed with UV or DV on DHF Proposals.
  5. This was an idea: Limit a user's HP to no more than n% of the HP required for approval
  6. DHF Proposal approvals need 51% support from non-bot users (see 2D above) that have done at least 1 Powerup (stake) of >10 $HIVE within the past 3 months.
  7. DHF votes are only possible from users with a 35 reputation score or higher. Reputable who have spent at least some time on Hive and with a vested interest in seeing Hive succeed.
  8. Since HP delegations will now be time-limited to 32 days maximum (see 11 below), we no longer have to worry about groveling to a "whale" to vote for a DHF Proposal which breeds corruption, slush funds, kowtowing, etc.
  9. Partial payments of 25% will begin once Proposal enters its timeframe AND has >=85% of the required votes. With each additional 5% of required votes gained, payments go up another 25%. In other words, at 85% DHF recipient gets 25% of their DHF daily funds, at 90% user gets 50%, at 95% user gets 75% and at 100% user gets 100%. This also encourages the DHF recipient to keep posting about their work and progress.
  10. With everyone able to DV without FEAR and HP removed from voting, immediately defund Hivewatchers/Spaminator

10. HBD use, peg “stability” and future viability (CBDC’s incoming)

  1. A 20% interest rate on HBD is not sustainable as long as Hive active users are leaving, have a lack of earnings and live in FEAR of DV's.
  2. Very few CEX’s or bridges support HBD and insignificant outside money is purchasing Hive/HBD coins.
  3. My apologies, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but HBD coins appear to be created at will by an Inside Trader (a bot owner) who appears to be modifying the HBD price at will with a closed-source bot.
  4. HBD is loosely “pegged” to the USD fiat currency that could quite possibly be eliminated as the world reserve currency soon due to BRICS and others. Exit HBD (USD) positions soon before CBDC’s are implemented.
  5. In my opinion, $HIVE is a smarter long-term investment when it comes to accepting payments, rather than accepting HBD coins with the issues listed above. $HIVE is supported by most major CEX's too.
  6. Drop the HBD interest rate to 1% for now (which puts upward pressure on the $HIVE price) and raise the staked $HIVE interest rate to 7% which will encourage people to stake their $HIVE (this in turn increases funds available for UV's and Witness rewards).
  7. If you need a stable coin for trading, then buy the one that you like best from the free market. See #12 below.

11. HP and RC Delegations

  1. If you refer someone to Hive (?ref=) and they create an account, then auto-delegate RC to the new user, just enough and long enough (32 days) so that they can edit their profile a few times, UV a couple posts, and create 1 post and 2 comments (if possible). This will help to limit bots generating so many accounts, and won't leave new users “high and dry” anymore, wondering wtf.. "Ok, I have a Hive username now, yippee, now what?"
  2. All manual Delegations must also automatically revert in 1 to 32 days (customizable by the Delegator)
  3. Rename “Power Up” to “Stake” - Psychology; Remove the desire for “Power” from the Living psyche
  4. Powering Down, “Unstake” should be reduced from 13 weeks to 3 weeks. Emotional sell decisions can subside, and 3 weeks is still enough time for fork decisions to be made in case of a hack or other major issue report.

12. New Feature: Cross-chain swaps needed (IBC, ILP, and HTLC ACCS); Eliminate our reliance on middlemen/cex’s

  1. John J. and Chris S. have both done major research on this and it just needs implementation with the Hive chain so that if CEX’s are forced to drop support for $HIVE, or non-CBDC solutions become illegal in a country, we will still have plenty of on and off-ramp choices building liquidity via p2p swaps and true DEX’s.

This is version 1.2.1 of The Hive5 Project

⚠️ NOTE: These Hive5 posts are for IDEAS and ways that WE as Hivers feel could get Hive growing again, WITHOUT FEAR. Your ideas, concerns and reaffirmations in the Comment section below will help to improve and refine Hive as we go, so please SHARE YOUR IDEAS below as well! 💪🤠

The latest update on The Hive5 Project can always be found at this link:


Maybe I didn't understand the proposed method of valuing votes (non stake weighted), but I think it depends on KYC to prevent 1 person creating a million accounts, correct?
I am also not clear on the 'timezone' aspect - it appears that you are saying that the first votes cast within a 24 hour window are worth more than later ones, so doesn't that imply that being in a physical timezone that is closer to the reset point for the Hive system's voting cycle will result in that user having more voting power?

Forget timezones, that's the point there. Gotta keep it fair for everyone, no matter where you live.

I absolutely loathe KYC and will never support that. If bots are detectable, then the world will never need KYC. KYC is a slippery slope. At first it's just your email, then your sms/phone verification. Then biometrics, etc etc etc... Fuck all that.

With the time cycles for voting - I am not clear on exactly what your system is describing because you mentioned the voting window resetting every 24 hours and the shared voting power dropping over that period. I got the impression that you were describing a scenario where every vote case by every account would be valued less, as more time passes within the 24 hour cycle. If that's the case then wouldn't the votes that are cast at the beginning of that cycle be worth more than votes cast at the end?

Regarding identity: So you are saying that you want to implement a system that the entire valuation of Hive rests on that doesn't use KYC but is as reliable as KYC for the identification of identity and voter fraud? I think that's a noble goal but there is no evidence that such a system exists or is possible at this point as far I am aware. Significant sums have been invested into this problem by large and wealthy organisations, with no better solution being presented than KYC. I am not using this as an argument to implement KYC, I'm more pointing out that these are among the reasons why stake weighted voting is in use and continues to be in use on Hive - the alternatives are worse.

Time-cycles - 24 hours from "today", when the post/comment was created, not based on a timezone. This way everyone in every timezone has an equal shot at the rewards. So, let's say this comment gets a budget of $10 available to reward it. That $10 must be divided up by the number described in 2b.2.3.

Agreed. Maybe we should reword 2b.2 a bit more so that is more clearly defined. Let me know your verbage reword ideas on that one if you could, thank you ura-soul :) If it can't be clearly defined in words, then a Dev could never code the logic properly for it.

Identity - Successful bot detection is imperative. Powering up 10 Hive occasionally, amongst the other bot-detection methods I mentioned, helps with this detection. KYC is a slippery slope.

It's easy to throw money at KYC algos, email verification, sms codes, etc, but if we invest funds in a free and open anti-KYC system, then invest those same funds in a layer-1 bot-detection algorithm instead. No need to pay a human when our own bot can stop all other bots. Plagiarism, double-dips, doxxing and the other things I mentioned though can be stopped by thousands of humans who can DV the person that does those things.

I'm a bit hung up on the 24-hour cycle, too. I'm trying to wrap my brain around it and see the implementation clearly. Is the 24-hour cycle based on UTC? Does it begin ticking the moment a comment or post is created? If it does, then the 24-hour cycle will be perpetual on-chain but based on the creation of each piece of content. Would the UV's at the beginning of the cycle then be worth more than the UV's toward the end of the cycle?

Yeah,like I said these are just ideas and that point definitely needs to be worded better imo. I think, and maybe others can help me to address this one, but I think that the cycle is important, based on the moment the comment or post is created.

As a gardener, I look at what nature does. Everything in life moves in cycles. Not just seasons, but right down to the petals of a flower opening and closing each day.

The "worth" of the vote could be divided up equally amongst the active users of the past 24 hours. That would be the budget allowed for "today". If I should reword 2B a bit more, please guys help e with the verbage on that one so that it is perfectly clear if a Dev were to read it and need to code the logic for it. Please :)

I'll have to give this some thought.


@agorise, this is an interesting proposal with some good ideas, but I do have concerns.

No. 1, reducing the whale vote to equal status with a Day 1 Newbie's post isn't practicable. I don't think a single whale will support it, and you're not going to get this implemented without at least some whale votes. While I understand the reasoning behind the proposal, I don't think it will work in practice. Perhaps there needs to be a bone thrown to the big dog that is guarding the gate. Perhaps, instead of basing upvotes on Hive Power, there was a progressive UV-weight measure based on a number of factors, such as:

  1. HP
  2. Diversity of UVs over a 30-day time period (i.e. did you only vote for other whales or did you also distribute your voting power over a wide array of HP-weighted accounts and content types?)
  3. The use of one's HP to support initiatives that benefit the entire chain ecosystem and those of less fortunate status (in other words, once you achieve a high level of HP, do you use that HP to upvote your whale friends and their content or do you also delegate some of it to initiatives that are educational and empowering to others in the community, particularly newbies trying to learn about Hive and increase their own earning power?)
  4. Ratio of content creation vs. curation and commenting over a 90-day time-weighted timeframe
  5. Others?

Rather than "penalize" someone for being a whale, I think the proposal needs to address creative ways to incentivize whales to use their status for the good of the community/blockchain. After all, we want community-minded Hiveans at all levels of the power structure. In other words, incentivize philanthropy as opposed to penalizing success.

Another concern is the Power Down reduction to three weeks. I'm not sure what the thinking is behind this. In my mind, a longer Power Down process encourages staking and keeps large numbers of people from Powering Down at the same time and crashing the economy. That would be a terrible thing.

Finally, it sounds like you want to nix HBD. I thought HBD's purpose was to act as a counter to the volatility of Hive. If it works that way, it's doing its job. I do understand the concern about the anonymous central bank controlling the value of the stablecoin. We don't want another Terra LUNA scenario where an HBD de-pegging event causes a run on Hive. Lowering the HBD savings to 1 percent while at the same time lowering the Power Down process to the three weeks could very well do that. That would be my concern.

If I'm right, the witnesses are the sole arbiters of what the HBD interest rate is. There is no check or balance on the power of the witnesses to validate transactions and set the rules for the chain. What if there was a community DAO that acted as an advocate for the rest of the community whose sole purpose was to bring proposals to the witnesses that would effectively lead to new updates such as interest rate changes and the other kind of changes you are proposing. You stand a much better chance at getting things like these implemented if you approach each issue one at a time rather than as a complete package. And it would also allow the community to discuss each issue separately as we adjust our expectations.

I had that thought as well about such a drastic change all at once regarding the HP of the whales. A gradual change could be coded in and then once the conversion has finished, over the course of say 3 to 6 months, then that graduation code could be removed or commented out for efficiency.

I seriously doubt many people with HP delegated to them will want a time-limit or any kind of constraint added to delegations. Men and women alike that gain power are very reluctant to letting go of that power. So yeah, getting this point (of the 12) voted in might be impossible. If you want the omelette though, we are going to have to break a few eggs.

We have tried the "Power" thing, and it obviously never ends well.

I love your thinking in those 4 points too Allen. Having a mix of things (kind of like a basket of currencies) seems to be a much more stable alternative for the worth of an UV or DV. Diversity is important. It levels the playing field for all and shows that co-existence is not only possible, but preferable imo.

RE: Powerdown (unstake) time from 13 down to 3 weeks. I went with 3 because I have seen how long it takes to figure out a fix for a hack, develop a patch for the hack, and the time that it takes for someone to remove their emotion and think logically about what is happening at ay given point in time. I too would not like to see a mass dumping of Hive, so yeah we could increase that a bit more to say 4 or 5 weeks?

RE: HBD - I like the ability to trade (via L1 wherever possible) from the core coin to other native coins on the chain, just like I used to do with the MPA's (aka "smartcoins") and BTS on the Bitshares chain. So, keeping HBD would be smart, but we need to be realistic about the savings account interest rate on it, the ability to exit positions and the implementation of the new CBDC's that are now being implemented worldwide. As history shows, the value of your assets in Dollars gets devalued 1000 to 1 when a new currency is implemented. They might still call it a Dollar, but that CBDC will buy you 1000 times less. Lowering the interest rate will encourage people to exit those positions now before it's too late and it will help Hive at the same time as per the reasoning in Hive5 section 10.

As for breaking this post up into multiple posts, I didn't do it that way because it just seems like every time someone has done that in the past, their post gets mixed in with all the other complaint posts. My dad always said, go big or go home. Lay it out there, make some noise. Hell, even give it a brand name and shortcut url so that people can talk about Hive5 and send people to these versioned posts easily (

I'm hoping that we can get the conversation going, and keep it going this time until real change actually starts to get implemented.

Well, you know, nothing ventured nothing gained. So kudos for starting a tough conversation. What you say is true about delegations. The delagatees aren't going to want time limits on those. Personally, I like the idea of being able to, as delegator, choose when my delegation is removed. A time constraint could take that away. And, seriously, that aspect of your proposal is much less disruptive and probably less influential on the outcome you're looking for than other aspects of it are.

I'm convinced the only real protection against centralization of power is pure decentralization. Hive can't achieve that with DPOS. The fact that there are witnesses who are voted in by the rest of us means that there is less decentralization than we're all comfortable with. And I can't bear to think how many inactive accounts have active witness votes that may never expire because account owners are nowhere to be found. If you want to spark real change, how about a time limit on witness votes? What if they expired after three years, or expired after an account holder had no on-chain activity in one year?

I still think a longer duration time of power down is a wise move. If you want to reduce it, I'd be more comfortable with 7-10 weeks.

Good point on the multiple posts. It probably is best to lay it out all there and get the conversation going.

"how about a time limit on witness votes?"

Good point! Yeah, if votes are not limited by time, then over time they are most likely to stack up, giving some Witnesses virtually endless power and making them ever harder to vote out imo.

I will add that in an additional Witnesses section of this Hive5 project into v1.3 next week.

As for the unstake (power down) time period, the 3 weeks can definitely be increased. Let's meet at 6 weeks for now. It's rough, but let's give this one more time so that others have a chance to comment on the number of weeks they too feel a new unstake time would be ideal.

Thank you again Allen for your ideas! 💚💚

To amend #10.3 above a bit, and again my apologies if this is incorrect, but it appears as if HBD is just a tool for whales (see 10,907,119 HBD in circulation outside the DHF, so how many TOTAL Hive users hold more than 10 HBD? 7,539,786 HBD are in savings, that means only 3,367,333 HBD are liquid on Hive right now.

I think that means that barely 10% of all HBD in existence are liquid.

Again I will state that I do not think we should get rid of HBD, but it definitely needs an overhaul imo.

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Is it because you are tired of getting downvoted for double-dipping everytime you create a new video system?

It's because Hive is losing users and nobody wants to address these core issues that they are leaving.
Did you read the post or maybe go look at the doc? Thats the discussion that we are attempting to have here. Not personal vendettas. We want to see Hive grow and it will not be accepted by the general public when things happen. We cant be billing it as the best thing since sliced bread when it's the next best thing since sliced bread. It may work fine for businesses and other Web3 companies to use. But for the general public we will need to address these issues.
In order for Hive to grow we need both.

Well, fix the issues with people abusing the system and there will be no more need for downvotes.

How would you propose to do that?

I wouldn't. I dont have a problem with downvotes

So, you admit people are abusing them, but you don't want to fix that?

Removing them ain't fixing the problem, when people spamming and abusing the ecosystem is the problem.
If people didn't, the downvotes wouldn't be a problem :)

Thats whole idea of this discussion. We didnt get to this far without an open discussion.
IMO, I wanted to get rid of the down votes across the board. But I understand that they can be used for protection. In my world view the only one that can ensure ones safety is themselves.
I also want to separate hive power from the post rewards. That way a whale cant just come along at the last second and wipe out a creators rewards because they want to. To me that goes against everything intended to achieve in Web3. Transactions should be between a creator and a consumer and no 3rd party should have the ability to come along and negate other consumers value of the content that they appreciated.
Those are the two biggest issues to new users.
IRL you find value in an authors work. You buy their book. Author is rewarded. On Hive you find value in an authors work the author gets rewarded but then loses it if someone whale has more HP doesnt value their work down votes it? That should not happen and does more to drive new users out than what comes in.

Absolutely, positively 100%

Well, I can value spam and Ai and create a group to reap the reward pool based on me liking spam posts and nobody can do anything about it. Perfect.

In IRL spammy Authors doesn't get published :)

Also, check out Blurt. They have no downvotes.

Anytime votes are automatically cast on content that is not consumed is reaping from the rewards pool. It's not that much different than AI. The only real difference is the level of complexity of the software running it. They both give the same results in the end. To accomplish what we humans call mundane, boring and routine.

Spammy authors do get published. They are called American Journalists and Hollywood. 😜
Blurt does not have the kind of content I'm interested in and its pretty ugly to look at.

But what would be your ideas to fix the problems presented in the post? I'm genuinely curious if you have some actual insight or if you are just here to troll and attempt to side track the conversation.

It is a conversation and discussion that needs to happen. Right here on Hive and not behind closed doors in Mattermost or on Discord. All users need to weigh in on it. Not just the whales & witnesses.

How is auto votes reaping the reward pool even if the content is not comsumed? Most people automate authors of some level and many make sure they ain't posting Ai or spammy shit. I don't view it the same way.

I just read down to the downvote part and well Agoise have been getting downvoted for creating video-software where people double dipped the reward and I was part of the people who downvoted him for doing so.

Thats where I am coming from.
So I am for downvotes when comes to abuse.

If you discover a Creator double-dipping the Hive rewards pool, then DV his video.

Haven't you been doing that for ages though? With the Ken dude?

You don't understand how the hive works.

You cry about all the "abuse" and write a big post complaining and to "force" others into your ideas?

That's not going to work well. Good luck. However you have no new ideas. You have no direction. You don't have anyone supporting this.

You just seem like you are going to be screaming into the wind.

Good ideas don't require force.

First let me say this. The post is not complaining, it's sparking a discussion that is badly needed. And it's not "forcing" anything on anybody.

They are not alone and what makes you assume that there is no support. For all you know half the users of Hive could be in support of these ideas. But they are too afraid to voice their opinions for fear of down votes.
If we seriously want to make Hive grow then we need to address these issues or there will not be any kind of serious growth. The fact that we are actually losing users over the last year is a fact and it must be addressed.

I've been here 3 yrs and have never heard this discussion before so while they may not be new to you they are to me and thousands of others.

Bringing this stuff up for discussion is not force. You do not have to agree with them. Nobody is forcing you. Funny you complain about somebody attempting to "force" their ideas on you but you are totally fine with forcing your status quo on everybody else.

The only reason that it wouldnt work well is if people are content with their little chain that is bleeding users and value like a sieve until it eventually dies and fades away because they didnt want to have the discussion. So yeah, leaving an attacking hateful comment at the beginning of the discussion is not really helpful at all.

You are correct though, good ideas do not require force. But they do come as a result of discussion.

Not being willing to discuss and debate without an attack is actually force.

Thank you for your input on the matter. Your 0 input will be duly noted.

Exactly, Unklebonehead. I've watched steem/hive improve since day 1 in 2016 and I have seen people put up complaint posts here and there that get some attention, but there is a lot more to address here than just removing the DV button (Blurt, Whaleshares, et al).

I have 12 issues listed, all of which if tweaked could probably help Hive immensely. I love Hive and want it to succeed, not just because I have invested in it and launched apps on it, but because I genuinely still believe that it is the best chain for social media in existence... at the moment.

"But they are too afraid to voice their opinions for fear of down votes" - exactly, 100%. Imo, many users, even brand new users get treated like dirt here and that is why they leave...

Help someone to feel welcomed and loved and they will not only stay, but will become FREE marketers for Hive.

If you enjoy "force" then by all means please continue voting for your leader, I'm sure he cares deeply for your welfare. /sarc

"Screaming? Crying? Complaining?" Yeah guys, I thought up 12 complaints. The Hive active userbase is not growing. If you do not want to see Hive grow, then leave. Sell me your Hive on the way out. I however,try to help out and put forth ideas, and effort, as the post states. I can't see how I could "force" anything on anyone here, nor would I want to. This is about sharing your ideas for helping Hive...

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