Something happened today that doesn't happen often - I took myself out of a discussion. It was between some friends in a chat and I felt that my position would only upset one of the members and while I don't mind upsetting people and I do think that they can take it, it wouldn't have lead to much discovery for them at this point, as they weren't ready to actually listen. Instead, I watched from the sidelines quietly until the conversation moved onto other things.
Social movements.
Social movements are generally looking for some kind of closing of gaps, with a reduction in some kind of perceived inequality - some fairness - as if "fair" exists. What is interesting is that most of the arguments are centered around economic disparity and related issues - yet the movements do not seem to address this at all, other than complaining about rich people and making sweeping statements about how easy some groups have it compared to them.
I think that the most effective way to combat inequality is through developing economic literacy and ownership, yet most movements focus on the taking of value and destruction of property. It is a mindset problem, because even if the movement is "successful" in destroying their oppressors, without the skills to manage the new economy and take responsibility and ownership, the result is going to be more turmoil, more corruption, less community -
One for one, all against all.
No wonder the world is a mess.
The conversation I removed myself from was about people who make excuses for their bad behavior based on their desperation due to conditions and feeling like their survival is threatened. If this is put into another context however, I am not sure it holds up. For example, a husband who beats his wife because she cheated on him - is this okay because of his conditions and feeling that his survival is threatened - Or should he learn some emotional control?
The discussion was concerning Americans and the conditions and disruption they are facing there, as if people in other countries aren't facing similar, or haven't faced similar in the past. I am sure there are billions of people who have felt desperation and that their survival is threatened as they stress about how to put food on the table and a roof over their head, chronic illness or all kinds of emotional distress - but, do they all explode and are those who do explode excused for their behavior?
I find the lack of willingness to take responsibility for emotional reaction childish. I find it insane that people spend their time supporting social movements without first finding some semblance of emotional balance in their own lives - as if desperation is a good position to act from for a greater good. It is frustrating to watch millions of people focus their energy on the surface conditions of a problem, not at the root.
It is like trying to fell a giant oak, by plucking at the leaves within arms reach.
but, do you see the problem? People do not seem to link the conversations together - social movement, emotional control or economic literacy and ownership - they see it them as disconnected from each other. What I think is part of the problem is that people love to identify themselves with aspects that they think affect them, without tying those things together into a consolidated worldview - they treat each individually without recognizing that they are fragmenting themselves into a thousand shards - and wonder why they feel that their survival is threatened. They aren't protecting themselves as a person, they are protects narrow slices of themselves, but are charged as if each slice is a whole. It is schizophrenic with split personality disorder thrown in, but each personality acts as if it is the only one that exists and that its actions do not impact on the others.
We expect everyone else to act well - while we justify why we do not have to ourselves.
Move, while I stand still.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
Ah yes.
There is a fine line between investing your intellect and perspective in participating in a conversation or taking your chips off the table due to the futility of your point to a person bound to a preconception.
At that point, I reserve myself to just listen and study to learn something about the topic or the person (if they mean anything to me.)
If I am prompted for a response, I just say, "That's amazing." Later on, when getting to know someone, I let slip that, when someone is making absolutely no sense, is just making excuses, or telling themselves a lie, I just respond with "That's amazing."
I think they will be open later, but I identified the tone very early and excused myself.
I think this is a good approach - I can happily sit and listen as it gives me food for thought anyway.
This made me laugh. A friend of mine says "That's special" when someone asks her about clothes she doesn't like. =)
oops - that was a pretty big comment vote - spend it wisely :D
That is also an easy way for a movement to be goaded into scoring an own goal or for it to just do it on its own. The BLM movement is a prime example. Police violence targeted against black people in America is a serious problem. But burning down entire districts and looting stores isn't going to do anything but lose a great deal of sympathy for the movement.
Precisely. Point and shoot.
!ENGAGE 20
ENGAGEtokens.Fair DOES exist. I swear on my mother's grave. It's in April here, and it has all kinds of cows and pigs and rabbits and chickens-and so much really nasty and oh so good food it should be a controlled substance.
There is no revolution, only power changing hands.
Wealth redistribution is always bound to fail. It's a social movement that has nothing for me, it just won't work, but it takes a lot of people and energy away from things that might work. It's a fake, a screen, allowed and even encouraged by the upper class to prevent other things slipping the bounds of command and control.
Here in this country there IS systemic racism. It's deep rooted and long standing. I feel that right here, right now, things ARE starting to change. People's attitudes are changing, their defenses aren't near as effective as they once were and at least some are starting to understand. It last happened with Gay Marriage. People finally figured out that it was none of their business what other people did in their bedrooms, and in surprisingly short order became the law of the land.
Not that destruction and mayhem are ever excusable. Under no circumstances. But for every thousand that march against racism, one hundred thousand march in their hearts. It goes on and on but the truth be told, it has gone on and on for centuries. Is it enough? I don't know. But if it isn't, it's a lot closer and the NEXT time might be enough. It is, by definition, a process.
I may have gone off on a bit of a tangent there. You've written another thoughtful and thought provoking piece and I thank you for it. Even if I didn't follow the indicated path.
Baked potatoes are the best part of fair.
Isn't this the truth. However, what I think could evolve is a point where it doesn't just change hands, it gets spread across all.
Yes. The sleight of hand is the term "wealth" where we are led to believe it is an amount of money. Wealthy people don't have much money - they hold a lot of value. Saying Amazon or Apple is worth so many billions is ridiculous, that is just one way to represent it conceptually.
Yes. What annoys me is people treating the experience of racism in America as a global condition - it is not. It is not that racism doesn't exist other places, it certainly does - but the baggage that Americans (all) seem willing to carry is immense. A lot of other places carry less, yet with global media they are buying new luggage and filling it with shit.
At the end of the day, the property destruction bill will be footed by the basic taxpayer, with the cost coming from the retirement funds, while those who were target add a little more to their stack - like normal
It is good to get off the path - and I think you were very much on track ;)
!ENGAGE 20
ENGAGEtokens.Hi @tarezkp,
I already had some time, without reading some of your always interesting posts. In this particular, your perspective, based on linking social movements with emotional control, economic literacy, and property, is very respectable and obeys the logic of integrating the rational with the emotional.
How irrationally people act just to satisfy their own interests. You are right, we live in a deranged world, where 1% of the population accounts for 82% of the wealth currently produced on the planet, and where 10% live on less than $ 2. Surely, what they discuss for the survival of their way of life will be in the middle of protecting or fighting for the remaining 18%. The comic and tragic thing is that in the end, they all converge on the same destination.
I think the essential thing is to try to live with purpose, the rest will come in addition.
This is the thing - it isn't about the conditions at all - it is about not dealing with what they must. The more tragic thing is that if people did actually focus their energy on what is important, they would all converge at the same destination again - a far healthier one for everyone.
I completely agree.
!ENGAGE 20
ENGAGEtokens.You're welcome. Thanks for the tokens.
The only thing on my mind right now is this quote below:
''A wise man once said nothing.''
I read it a while ago but I still see the truth in it.
There is a time to speak, a time to be silent and a time to wait for a better moment.
Situations like you described are partly why studied Stoicism. Emotional control can be a tough one, even more so when politics are involved.
No one is going to teach it - but those who do not learn it will forever be at the mercy of those who do.
You know, I have this same issue with fighting for social movements. Taking it up and making it seem like one of my personal problems. A lot of individuals tend to take up these fights and when you stand out by not speaking on them they say you're 'selfish'.
Thanks for this, it has been one of my silent battles with friends that I've refused to let bother me much.
People find something "important" for their attention, while what actually causes them pain goes begging.
I agree with everything in this post and have a million things to say about it. Unfortunately i live unwillingly in the middle of exactly what youre talking about. the toxicity of the ubiquitous pathology has completely drained me. I literally dont have the energy anymore to make a comment on this. I just stay silent now knowing like @zekepicklrman said the "futility" of it all.
My advice for anyone who is in or tempted to invest any time or effort into the ongoing system - don't. Instead, work out where resources are best spent - building a better system, not fixing the broken.
What is incredible is that if all of these people really wanted to do damage - they'd be all in on crypto.
I try in my mind and as much as i can physically to break from the system. Its all i csn do to find any semblance of sanity in this environment
It is incredible that with all that we have available, this is the world we have built.
Makes you wonder about humanity. I swear even little children feel that there must be a better way then the world they see before them today
Children are honest, until they are programmed not to be.
Very true. They aren't brainwashed to limit their thinking yet either.
Skip to 14:35 - 19:00
I am continually "surprised" by how many victims of circumstance there are in this world.
I wish I was more eloquent.
Given that "common wisdom" seems to be separating everything (which is why we need to have things like work/life balance) I'm not really surprised that people generally struggle to connect things, especially if their logic is insisting that those things can't possibly be related in any way, shape or form.
Only tangentially related, split personality disorder seems to be called disassociative identity disorder these days
I was talking with a friend about this today and how people feel their intuition is right, even though it is based on experience and doesn't factor in all of what they don't know or haven't experienced. But, they are right still...
Are they using intuition or a form of logic that they're calling intuition? There's only been a handful of times my intuition has made sense at the time, usually I'm left trying to work out if I follow the "gut feel" or the logic (because they're often at odds). My experience has taught me to follow the intuition even if it's nonsensical and stupid because that almost always works out better than the logic in my case XD
However given that my surface logic is apparently slightly deviant compared to other people's it's entirely possible the "intuition" in my case is just normal logic XD
Oh yeah - I am not good at remembering terms like this. I think there are a lot of disassociated identities in the world of identity politics these days.
I think you’re right 😆
The do as I say not as I do crowd. People don't see when they are caught up in the hype which is what so many of the social movements are. They end up closing their eyes and ears to any thought that runs contrary to what they think they believe. They listen to the supposed social change leaders with out seeing what they are doing.
Out of all the riots, and protest and destruction from the riots and protest in America only one or two places the people are protesting about have been damaged. They would rather burn and loot Local businesses than burn and loot city property because they know that the city court house, the local police department the local governmental seat has nothing worthwhile looting. So they burn and loot and steal from their friends and neighbors, from the places they need to shop and do business with. and then wonder why other shop owners sell and move away.
To the best of my knowledge not one single protest organizer has been charged or arrested for failure to maintain control of their protesters. The city mayors the ones that last year and the year before were praising and rewarding their local police chief and police force with all sorts of accolades, approving new police contracts, and new police methods and tactics are now demonizing those they put in place.
"Do as I say, not as I do". a wonderful start to any revolution.
While believing that what they do is for the greater good.
Not only this - they destroy the places where their retirement funds are invested - and still think they are going to retire comfortably.
Incredible, isn't it?
I agree with you on every word and every punctuation mark, @tarazkp. Good that you didn't spend gunpowder on vulture. One knows when words fall on infertile ground. Justifying any act of banditry or aggression by the simple fact of survival puts us in the corner of "irrational beings", instinctive, acting without thinking. With this thesis, he kills years of human evolution. Can you imagine that by hunger everyone can steal or that by self defense we can attack or kill? Then why justice? This is the type of stance that many governments use to manipulate, to create resentments, to win followers and to win elections. Regrettable. Greetings.
Base animals - mindless to anything but the programming.
It is the contradiction of behavior - punishment for you, reward for me.
And we support it.
Making excuses is the best way to avoid looking in yourself for the cause of problems. I think people make excuses, because this is the easiest way to solve the problem. Finding the source of problems in yourself is a hundred times more difficult.
It is like not looking at the fuel gauge - so the car can't run out of gas.
Or not use a condom, because ovulation is only once a month.😁
I think this quote fits your post very well and it sums up a lot of what you said
"Circumstances don’t make the man, they only reveal him to himself.”
– Epictetus
I don't believe in excuses. I believe in what people choose to do. Every time.
That is a great quote!
I'm glad you liked it!
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Thank you. It's a thin line between running away from being responsible or accountable and learning when it's actually time to walk away. After a while, you realize that you can only educate or give your opinions on a matter, the rest is really up to them.