Wow that's a big move from our biggest whale...
So I randomly stumbled into the Hive discord a couple hours ago and noticed there was a discussion going on...
Well that's one way to do it!
There was a lot of interesting conversation to be had here. Seeing everything get defunded except for Ecency is quite the shock indeed! Unsure how much we can read into that but the Swarm is a buzzin' on this one.
One big thing to consider here is that Hive is clearly a lot more centralized than a few of the evangelists around here like to admit. Of course this has always been the case, but it's moments like this where the harsh reality of the situation sets in and becomes undeniable rather than lurking the background where everyone can ignore it. One account being able to single-handedly fund proposals is not exactly a place we want to be in... of course ironically this exact problem has been solved when that account votes the return... but then again makes it pretty much impossible for anything to get funded without a greenlight, so now we have the reverse problem.
Somewhat reminds me of the 2020 hostile takeover.
Because one of the big problems with the DHF is that it controls the ninjamine... which should have been destroyed but instead is now controlled by a couple of key accounts. Remind me again what we did to users that voted both real witnesses and sock puppets during the hostile takeover? We forked all that Korean stake to @null because it was seen as an attack on our consensus and trying to exploit political gain during a crisis... of course on a mathematical level this is not true at all. Voting both sides is the same as voting neither side on a pure numbers basis. Interpret that how you will.
Some users are now trying to claim that huge accounts like Blocktrades should perhaps abstain from voting in the DHF entirely and actually let the community decide what does and does not get funded. Personally I think this is a slippery slope to be on. At what point does an account not have the right to exercise their stake because they "own too much"? That doesn't really make logical sense (especially with alt accounts in play). On a very real level too many users have been selling too much of their Hive (or not buying enough) which is why we are in this situation to begin with.
I can't say I'm terribly upset with the current outcome we find ourselves faced with. I will say that it's a little weird that no statement has been made, but many are saying the vote itself is the statement and doesn't require further clarification. Not sure people on Hive are going to be sated by that logic. We are a highly political network after all.
Hm... what else?
Where is Hive's money? All of Hive's value (including HBD) is contained on razor-thin trading books. Today Hive is worth 33 cents a token. That number goes up or down with high volatility. With this in mind it should be obvious that the ninjamine is not "for development". The ninjamine can only steal from users that acquired their tokens fairly and redistribute it to funded proposals (many of which have proven to be ineffective). In this regard it is nice to see everything get defunded... because I honestly have no idea how much money the DHF is allocated if we take away the premine that shouldn't exist in the first place.
The only way to realize the value of those counterfeit tokens is to dump them on the market, and once that happens price goes down and nobody can get that value for their stake. Currently this is the only problem I see with the current state of the DHF: many people on Hive like to pretend we don't have a premine. It's right there in the DHF. Stop pretending and make a move to destroy it permanently rather than acting like it doesn't exist. The "we don't have a foundation or a premine" narrative is not one we are making in good faith. We've swept the truth under a rug and pretend it's not there.
There's also a certain corporate/government vibe to the DHF that we see in legacy finance. It is this false reality that we need to spend the money in the DHF or we somehow lose it. The fact of the matter is that money from the DHF should only be spent if and only if the value being created is higher than the cost. This toxic attitude that we have to spend the surplus or lose it (like a government agency) is enraging the few times I've seen the concept floated.
Will number go up?
Potentially this move stops thousands of dollars of Hive from getting dumped on the market every day that it continues. I am thinking about buying here because I was going to buy anyway... but I think I'll give it a few days first to see what happens. Let the knee-jerk reactions resolve before doing anything hasty in either direction.
Conclusion
I took my sweet time getting this "breaking news" out there so I better just kill it here and hit the publish button. My current feeling over this situation is that it's some low-risk drama that somewhat highlights a few of the weaknesses that have been ignored up until now (while simultaneously fixing a lot of the DHF-wastes-money debate). It calls into question the value of a lot of these proposals. I imagine the drama has just begun so get ready to wade through it! This is a big move and should be respected as such. I'll likely have more to say on this topic once some of these events have matriculated.
Ouch, couple of topics here.
First, the issue with ninjamine was that it could be (and ultimately was) used for governance. Now that it is in DHF, the funds can actually be used the way the community thought they should be used (they are mostly not used that way currently, but that is separate issue).
DHF currently still has over 37M HIVE from ninjamine. It converts that HIVE to HBD at a rate of
HIVE_PROPOSAL_CONVERSION_RATE(5 basis points) per day, which means ~18800 HIVE (about 6000 HBD extra). Example block containing suchdhf_conversion_operation.Compared to funding it receives from inflation, that is significant amount. DHF receives
database_api::get_dynamic_global_properties().proposal_fund_percent, which isHIVE_PROPOSAL_FUND_PERCENT_HF21(10 percent) of inflation. It receives new funds every block, but since payouts are once per hour, the new funds are recorded once per hour as well, indicated bydhf_funding_operation. Currently it amounts to around 3000 HBD per day. It means ninjamine conversions are responsible for 2/3 of new funds in DHF.Total potential payout output does not depend on new funds though, that would be true if fund was dry. It depends on current amount of HBD on balance, which is over 23M at the moment. Daily output limit is 1 percent of that (I just noticed a small problem - the value is not defined where it should, that is, in
config.hpp, but in some local constantdhf_processor::total_amount_divider). Cut that by 24 and get actual hourly payout limit. New funds are responsible for completely insignificant portion of potential payout. Return proposal, even in normal situation, has more impact on future size of pool than new funds, inflation or ninjamine.Voting for proposals has some inertia. Voters would need to use bots to constantly monitor votes of others and adjust their vote based on what proposals they vote for went below return proposal (and then such bots would end up constantly adjusting votes spamming the network :o) ). Three top voters for return proposal could drop their vote to counter most of influence of blocktrades. Complete counter would require more vote changes, true, but it is not like it couldn't be done. Of course, I don't even know why such move was made, maybe whales are in agreement there.
Finally there is also the issue of how DHF funding affects funded projects. The way it currently works is only suitable for infrastructure - when it fails to get the funding, you can just stop renting the server and some Hive API nodes disappear from the network. Once funding is back it only requires at most couple days to set it up again. But there are projects that need one time all-or-nothing funding (f.e. some promotional event or a simple app/bot script). The thing that should be the main focus of DHF - development - requires continuous and secure funding, especially for bigger projects with multiple people involved. Even if you have a team that is also doing other work, switching people between projects generates a lot of friction. Also you might end up having a lot of work wasted, because it is really hard to pick up development of the feature that was only partially implemented, even for the same developer, after some time passed (and partially implemented feature might even have negative value for Hive, because it might make it harder to do other changes).
Allowing downvotes for proposals seems like a good start, but much more comprehensive changes are needed. I don't have any good ideas though :o)
Thanks for this comprehensive analysis.
I really appreciate it.
I would not have guessed the ninjamine was only an x3 for the DHF.
You only made one assumption I disagree with:
Again, this is not accurate. There is no money; there is only dumping on the liquidity pools, which dilutes the value of everyone's money. These are just coins printed out of thin air that should not exist. If we wanted the DHF to have x3 the funding then we should just give the DHF x3 the funding... but we don't want that so we shouldn't.
When Ned promised everyone "don't worry the coins are for development" that was a farce. He premined the token because he wanted all the power for himself. We can not magic up money out of nowhere. And now we as a network are continuing the farce and acting as though "no really the money is really for development!". Yes well if we want to print more tokens out of thin air we should just do that in real time rather than pretending like the 80M lump-sum ninjamine was a good idea.
I think this is a really good thing. If you look at some of the proposals, they aren't too far off from making it above the return even with the Blocktrades vote. This might force them to rethink their current proposal and adjust it to get the support they need. Either that or redouble their efforts looking for votes. I think this is also a good way for them to consider who they support. If they support users who are dumping their rewards every chance they get (I'm looking at you valueplan), then that is wasted stake that could push them above the threshold.
absolutely!
Let the projects lobby for support from individuals. Most of the projects don't even know 95% of the individuals, and 95% of the individuals do not know the projects.
It would be interesting to see how many accounts with large enough stake to move the needle are not voting on an proposals. When you are talking 62 million, being a couple million short doesn't seem like too much unless you figure 80% of the chain only holds 10,000 or less shares right? I just made up those numbers to try and make a point.
Something to consider is that my account holds considerably less than 10k staked Hive (<7k), but I have seen it is ~1500 in terms of stake weight on the platform. That surprised me quite a bit.
It's based on rshares I think. I don't remember the exact conversion.
In my mind, things will self adjust with time. Projects that can convince more people to vote will get funded, those that can’t, won't get funded. It's rather simple.
I guess we will see, unless BT decides to suddenly change course.
It's not just in the dao, any account with a number under 50k had a decided advantage by being able to mine before 'the masses' got here.
As do we.
I've long floated a 1000mv gentleman's agreement, but nobody wants to hear it.
Least of all those that would have to corral their insatiable appetites for hive.
(Not all bad.)
Here is a list of the 25 accounts that blow out the equalization in the math.
How many early adopters/ninjaminer accounts can you count?
I only see 4 that I can definitively say were not here for the launch.
I don't hold their luck against them, they were in the right place, at the right time, with the right skills to create this hive we struggle to influence, but the clear facts are that outsiders are not buying into a game as centralized as the top 20 accounts taking half the inflation and giving it to their 'good' authors/toadies.
Maybe the outsiders don't understand the dilution going on, and maybe they do.
Irrespective of how we feel about the outsider's assessments as a collective, most folks have chosen to quit the game rather than climb the impossible looking sheer cliff face that is our distribution.
you have gone mad
posting junk everyday is definitely frying your brain.
Comparing your project not getting funded with JS is absolutely moronic,
You deserve a DV.
In your time, you have written quite a few moronic posts. This one reminded me of another:
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@edicted/jrcornel-being-flagged-to-zero
I don't have a project up for funding.
And I'm also very clearly not referencing Justin Sun here.
It seems that your interpretation of one small paragraph has been unfavorable.
A small paragraph that I could delete right now and the overall message would still be exactly the same.
See I didn't want to explain this more which is why I cut off that thought with "interpret that how you will", but now you're compelling me to continue down the path that we both thought was a stupid idea to pursue.
A huge whale voting both the return proposal and several other proposals is arguably quite bad because then literally nobody can get funded without that whale's approval. I agree that it is a bad comparison to what the Koreans did... because their actions were a net-neutral on the math side of the voting (aka same outcome if they voted neither side), whereas this very clearly implies that nothing can get past the voting wall without the approval of a single individual.
If you ask me the Koreans were quite foolish in that they could have made the exact same demands by abstaining their vote entirely, and then we would have never in a million years been able to justify forking their stake away. But this is wildly off-topic.
Of course that is just a Devil's Advocate stance once we take into account the fact the motive behind the voting. I believe that Blocktrades would like what is best for the platform, whereas the Koreans were very obviously trying to strongarm the network into getting what they wanted... which was... no downvotes so they could farm the reward pool without resistance? Something like that.
I believe this issue should get attention, and so do you because you are in my comments... giving it attention. Downvoting this post sends mixed signals. I am trying to represent both sides of this issue in an unbiased manner, and as I have already pointed out there are going to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions on day one. And I don't post a whole lot of garbage to the chain, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
And I can't help but notice you not taking a stance on any of the issues I have outlined, other than "blocktrades != Justin Sun"... which is just inherently a strawman attack right out of the gate. Maybe you can see how bad some of these optics are and you're like... hm don't wanna touch that with a ten foot pole. Yeah I don't want to either but I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
You have known me for a while, and so have I:)
I never care about what 'signal' my DV sends: because I do not give a rat's ass on what people thinks about me.
So with that out of the way, lets cut the crap shall we?
You have never been pro-hive, and it is the same with the whole Leo community, so lets just keep it that way. I have been around long enough to read and understand a lot of what you write and perhaps don't write. I can understand your thinking without you even writing it.
So again, lets cut the crap. Would you have written this post without the event of this morning? No.
So again, remember your jrcornel days and go to bed :)
Tomorrow is another day.
PS I did DV that jrcornet post, with my disapproval, and I am doing the same today, I was correct then, and I am correct today.
I feel like I should say more but this meme sums it up perfectly I hope you saw the movie!
It's a goodin!
You'd be hard pressed to find me bull posting on LEO in recent memory.
I'll tell you that much.
Watch that movie, available at netflix and prime ;)
I know you haven't seen it:)
Wow, this is somewhat disturbing. A few major problems for me:
Ultimately, this is a decenteralised system and we all understand that anyone can vote as they prefer. However, we also know very well that when single accounts amass centralising power, problems can arise. While there is no reason to think that Blocktrades has plans akin to Justin Sun, at the same time many people here still hold memories and effectively trauma related to that experience - so repeating anything that looks and feels like it is unwise. All it would take to improve the situation is communication.
BTW, I looked at the voters of the return proposal and notice that almost all of the larger ones are among those who sought to eliminate my account during COVID - these people clearly are not aligned with the intent for free speech and community growth that draws so many to Hive in the first place.
Most of the core development of hive over the years has been by blocktrades and his team all funded out of his own pocket. Howo, gtg and a few others have also done thier share of work but it's largly thanks to blocktrades team that hive is getting a smuch developemt as it does now.
That being said, without hearing it from blocktrade himself we can only speculate.
My personal thought is perhaps a vunrability was discovered and this is a security measure.
I say this as I know thay very recently blocktrade and gtg have been testing some dhf specific fixes and perhaps thay discovered an issue?
Purely speculation ofcourse.
It's pretty unprecedented to disrupt so many projects unannounced, so if it's a security issue that might explain it - we 'might' see I guess!
I appreciate this balanced take in a sea of knee-jerk reactions.
The last bit is a little biased though; I'll let it slide. 🙃
Thanks!
Your 2nd comment is my 2nd comment to your 2nd comment. lol
lol lovely
If witness rewards are insufficient to fund development, then that development shouldn't happen. We missed a huge opportunity by keeping the ninjamine.
Completely agree that ninjamine should be obliterated, when they didn’t it felt like a racket in the waiting.
And also that proposal should be given based on whether or not they will bring more value to hive.
I didn’t have a big problem with any of the proposals being funded but the whole attitude and reality of how they get funded feels a bit similar to how the world economy currently works, same shit with a web3 label. Projects should feel they need to really earn the support and not get lazy because they have a few whales on their side.
Honestly we should look for ways to discourage anyone from controlling any more than 1% of the chain. I don’t have any great ideas about how to do that fairly, especially since anyone can make multiple accounts…meaningful decentralization is still an uphill battle we gotta work towards.
Maybe limit the amount any one account could influence the proposals? It wouldnt change much but at least in the short term it would force some users to power down and redistribute their tokens which…i dont know what that would achieve other than show how the general population of Hive feels about things for a few weeks while they redistribute….hmmm
For now I hope the proposals get refunded and each project realizes they really need to earn that money. And burn the ninja mine forever!
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I just got a message about it on discord, that it finally happened.
It's a very good news!!! It would had to happen long time before.
Just in the last year, valueplan alone sold 10m+ HIVE. The amount of HIVE on exchanges is very alarming. It's already in a downside spiral, and will be hard to get out of it, but this is the first step to do that.
Of course, now people have to understand, it won't solve anything to pull their return prop vote!!! Keep it! And vote for the very few projects what are actually necessary, or adding value to Hive for the money they got from DHF. (not maintaining already existing apps, front-ends)
Even like this, only 40% of active HIVE POWER is necessary for proposal acceptance!!! (and around 30% of total HP) Anyway, the proper version would be: take 1st of each month the previous month's active HP and divide it by 2, so 50% of total (active) HP would be necessary for proposal acceptance.
The previous version was ridiculous, even the crapiest European govs can't govern with 15% of support...
Not to mention, not serious private individual would ever spend money for HIVE, in case he knows about DHF 'system'. And obviously, not any investor, they max laugh a good one, when they see this 'decentalized system' in practice.
Thankfully, the money for nothing time is over!!! Hopefully, from this point on, the funded projects have to deliver what they promised, something what is adding minimum the same value to HIVE, what they receive from DHF:
I highly recommend to everybody, read through the last 1-2 months of stats, what @dalz made about HIVE!!!
What is the Share of the Hive Power That is Actively Voting/Curating? | Dec 2024
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Can we just simply acknowledge that the selling pressure from the DHF is essentially 0?
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@tobetada/dhf-drama-and-why-you-are-wrong
Also, proposals like from Valueplan should probably not get funding, but we are overamplifying things
I have heard some compelling arguments for this.
I think it would be good to put a number on it though.
Based on what I'm hearing here the DHF creates less than 3% inflation per year.
Without the ninjamine it would be less than 1%.
Both of those are pretty small numbers.
It is a great problem in our world, the Pareto Principal.
Meaning, that it is inevitable that a few people/groups/accounts will have a majority of the money/power/control.
If we voted with money in The US, then almost all of the lower class has no vote. Even if they all voted together as a solid block.
With money, we will have to work out balances. Such things have been that the rich HAVE TO compete in spending their money on greater works projects. (it was a societal stipulation)
There are also the funnels… money flows a certain way, and so, those who get into certain positions have the money flow towards them. Until a major shift happens, the stream/funnel keeps flowing that way.
I can recognize the patterns, but can do very little to affect them, and haven't found a good way to deal with them.
This is how it works... right now.
Democratic republic is hacked beyond repair.
The lower class controls nothing.
1 person : 1 vote is not really a valid way to get consensus as most people are uneducated on the necessary material and can be easily manipulated... and then the people that "represent" them can do whatever they want once elected.
I could go on about what I think the fixes are here but it would turn into a book.
And it might be a great book. But, would it be a well read book?
Therein lies the rub.
I would really like to explore ideas about voting… being constrained to your area. (or something like that)
If it is about govern-cement finance, those with money should have the vote. Or, vote with your tax dollars.
About laws for punishing some action, each person should have one vote, and 90% of the people need to vote for it. If 90% aren't already doing it, it isn't really a law.
And then something about only voting for things that you know a good deal about AND have skin in the game… but, how easy does that fall into IQ tests administered, and graded by those in power to only allow their friends to vote?
If you do write a book, be sure to promote it at the bottom of each of your blog posts, or i am sure i will miss it.
Plutocracies inevitably end up ruled by psychopaths, and I do not want to be ruled by psychopaths, so I don't want to live under a plutocracy. Many values people have are far more important to them than money. Mike Tyson said that Don King would sell his momma for a dollar.
I don't want to be ruled by people that would sell their mothers for money.
I'd read it, if you offered to answer questions it raised that I could not answer without handholding.
Seems like projects will have to bring in lobbyists to join their staff to get the proposals funded by the whales. Too bad for the smaller projects, I guess. Are individual developers able to get proposals funded or has it already been gamified so that they really don't have a chance?
BlockTrades has such a huge vote, that unless other whales vote for everything else. The vote is decided.
Edicted was pointing this out, and trying to talk about the way things have worked out, and what we may need to do about it.
His vote counters others' votes? If that's the case then him reserving his influence is a good thing! Small proposals might have a better chance?
His vote skews things SO MUCH that it is as if others haven't voted.
This is awesome! Because honestly now everyone can see why proposals where passing including that dumb ass value plan was because of their vote. But what would be better is if they simply didn't vote at all for anything! or vote for everything to make it an even playing field. Unless they have already done that?
And peace returns to the lands of Hive once again.
halle-fucking-lujah. The ninjamine should have been destroyed when we forked. I am completely for Blocktrades putting out out of reach of all except those who the community really unites to vote for.
Blocktrades unvotes the return proposal again... maybe he just likes the drama?
I went right to the proposals page myself, so I could see it with my own eyes and enjoy. But I was disappointed to see Blocktrades had withdrawn their vote.
:(
This is definitely a wake-up call.
The idea that Hive is fully decentralized has always been a bit of an illusion,
but moments like this make it impossible to ignore.
The DHF situation really highlights how much control a few key accounts still have.
Cutting funding might reduce waste, but it also raises questions about how decisions are really made.
Feels like history repeating itself in some ways. Let’s see how this plays out. 🕵🏼
There is an obscure Star Wars joke that goes something like this: a minion of a Dark Lord of the Sith makes his report that the big new rocket is ready for launch and all that remains is to put out the overpressure notice and warning (accidentally overfuel a rocket, rocket go boom). Said minion turns to go post the notice, but the Sith Lord orders him to stop.
"No. The overpressure IS the notice."
The punchline, I think, just happened here on Hive. There are a lot of great projects on Hive ... there a few that literally are leaking millions a year with little transparency, accountability, or responsiveness to community concerns. That just ended. From here on, every vote available will be needed. Will that be an easy hill to climb? Not at all. Is it optimal? Too soon to tell.
that was a weirdly intense analogy
I know ... it was the only thing I could think of in the middle of a bit of a Hive pump ...
Man, I leave for a few days to focus on real life shit and I get back to Blocktrades throwing weight and drama on the horizon.
It's a good thing I bought popcorn when I was in town!
I agree this is quite entertaining for a couple of reasons.
LOL. 😆😂 This is so funny.
im glad someone else finds it amusing
you must be a dark comedy enjoyoooor
So true, Brother. Even more than Dan's bail out, the fork exemplified to me that PoS was a failed governance which had no fix. It seems that ETH is , now, learning that same lesson the hard way.
It had to be one of the most immoral forks in the history of crypto and that's saying something.
Dumping all mined tokens would steal from many of the stakes that today govern Hive by voting those tokens for witnesses. Not only the DHF was mined when Steem was created in 2016, and mined tokens continue to control Hive governance today. The DHF does not vote, so it isn't accurate to call it 'the ninjamine'. It is the majority of mined tokens, or was before it began to be spent down, but it is not all of them.
It hasn't failed we just haven't seen a fair-launch yet that actually makes sense.
And in many ways it doesn't matter if governance has failed because most of the things you can do on the network are permissionless anyway. We haven't had a real feet to the fire moment since 2020 and perhaps we are due for another shakeup one of these days (hopefully with a more favorable outcome).
Nothing done on the internet is permissionless. Every transmission of data is permitted by the owners of that physical network infrastructure on which the internet, and Hive, ride.
That's not really relevant within the current framework of this thread.
The context here is, "Do we have to worry about someone on Hive requiring permission to post data to the chain?" The answer is unilaterally no. I'm pretty unconvinced someone outside the network would have a better shot at it if I'm being honest. But again that's off-topic.
There is a clause in many contracts that states that failure to enforce any of the rights does not guarantee those rights will not be enforced in the future. Hive exists because permissions are being granted unilaterally. That's no guarantee.
But, you're right. There's no point in worrying. Either it's worth doing something about, in which case taking action, not worrying about the risk, is the thing to do, or it's not, in which case one should enjoy the permission that has been granted.
Very true. There may be a fix yet to be found. As a Utility token, HIVE, is fantastic. As a place to house you wealth? Nah. :)
This may age very poorly this year :D
A bigger problem with Hive is that it pumps x30 on bull rallies and nobody sells because they want an x100 lol
Personally I have plans to stack BTC harder so I can get more Hive stake.
This has been one of my best strategies in the long run.
All I have to do is sell Hive back into BTC when it spikes x10 against it.
Of course not everyone can successfully volatility trade I'm only just now confident in my abilities.
That seems like a sound strategy. That was a sweet pump recently.
This makes me laugh and about time. The DHF has been completely unaccountable the entire time and has been a bleed. I'm also tired of getting the begging and pleading messages asking for votes for a DHF. If I wanted to support it I would. The ninjamine should have been been put to a key set and then burned/erased/deleted and forgotten about, this using it is bullshit.
Several users (~36) besides the Founders mined Steem tokens. The Founder's stake that became the DHF is not the entirety of the ninjamined stake that today rules Hive. That ninjamined stake remains the possession of whales that control the witnesses with it, and govern Hive, and the DHF does not vote.
Yeah I was trying but couldn't "read the code" as I was told so wasn't able to mine at the origin. I'm still a bit annoyed by it to this day.
Any idea which whales got the ninjamine? I thought that was the whole thing with the take over and freezing those funds Ned was trying to move. I still think they all should have been fully burned and keys destroyed so it wouldn't be hanging over the chain forever.
It was the stake Ned and Dan had pledged would only be used for supporting development, and would not be used for governance or curation. Dan left and Ned ended up with it. Selling it to Sun was not using it for development, and it was used for governance, with a vengeance. This is the stake that became the DHF. The few dozen others that did manage to parse the code and spin up stake might be sorted here. I don't know. I never looked. Some of them may have 10's of thousands of alts today, and what has become of that mined stake may be difficult to sort out after being routed about from alt to alt.
The basic issue is that ~36 accounts held the majority of stake when Steem went public, and ~36 accounts hold the majority of stake today. Whether that's the same stake or the same users isn't something I ever tried to find out, and it would probably cost more to ascertain than Hive has market cap. I'm not even sure it would be possible, because it could have been moved off platform and back on chain from time to time, and what happened to it off chain will remain a mystery.
There was a hiccup at one point after mining began, when Steem, Inc. shut it down. The claim from Steem was there was some technical problem and all the mining to date wouldn't work, so they needed to restart mining. Then they restarted mining, and after they'd mined ahead a ways, they let others join in. Some folks refer to that head start as the ninja part of the mining, but I consider all the mined stake similarly advantaged, particularly because that stake of Steem, Inc. mined ahead was pledged to not be used for governance or curation. Others that were involved said that the initial mining began to favor miners besides Stinc, and that's why it was shut down and discarded, because Stinc was determined to have enough stake to maintain control of the platform if something went awry.
At least, that's my recollection from reading the posts and comments regarding those events.
This is bad news for some projects that are great and the solid foundation of HIVE, such as the proposals for one of the best Hive Keychain tools. Or the proposals of the countless contributions by PeakD. So we also have problems with the HBD Stabilizer proposal and other CORE like HIVESQL?
The rest, I don't think there's any point in continuing, Value Plan? What is that?
I've been here for 3 years and I still don't know what it does...
When I saw This I was wondering if this was funded by that project.
Damn you just reminded me I was supposed to talk about how we need individual downvotes on proposals rather than blanket downvoting with the return proposal.
Knew I was forgetting something.
Also yes ValuePlan does a lot of things and creates a lot of drama.
It's how the Hive rally car gets funded for one.
This was one of my recommendations as well, as CBRS funded renovating a classroom with expenditures of ~.1% of Valueplan's, and they should not have to secure ~$65M worth of stake weight to fund such a small project (which wasn't funded through the DHF at all, but I felt was a good example of the kinds of projects folks would like to see come from the DHF).
Another I consider necessary is that stake can only be spent out of the DHF once. Each of us has a proportionate stake in the DHF to our stake in Hive tokens, and once we vote to expend that portion of our stake in the DHF, we should no longer have a say in how others spend their portion of the DHF. This, I believe, would cause people to more carefully consider voting for spending the DHF funds, and would concomitantly set a higher bar for beneficence of proposals in return for providing funding.
Interesting take.
Not sure how it would be implemented but that certainly could help people think harder about what they want funded. The entire DAO would have to be rewritten so I give that a slim to none chance. It would have to work more like Kickstarter or something... which I also don't know how works it exactly.
Very curious to see what's coming next! Wondering if I should reach for popcorns already...
Given how some of the DHF funds are being distributed, a little reflection would likely come in handy, maybe this is the way to start; will try and follow the news, thanks for the shoutout!
Love the Office analogy 😆
While I, like many, had an initial negative knee-jerk reaction, I came to the realization that the actual effects of this whole ordeal is a lot more important than the cause or intention. There will always be effects on both ends of the pole and a reset button may have been needed, regardless of how we got there.
Thanks for the breakdown. It makes even more sense now.
Not that your points aren't valid, but I have seen other projects struggling without funding, so I always thought it was blessing that we have this setup here. If we don't fund projects then only a handful of people have the resources to actually commit full time here. Also couple of thousand dollars of selling pressure a day is a drop in the ocean when Hive is now having millions of daily volume. Not even speaking of the mega pumps. Selling all of the DHF into one of those would probably barely even move the price?
The affected proposal that I care most about is HBD stabilizer.
Well, that and a few core developers like @howo
Well thought out bipartisan post sir!
A good day for hive, thank you @blocktrades , let the chain begin. What about witness votes?
Thousands of fake accounts disguised as real people pump out funds, then redistribute them through other accounts in various ways and cash them out!
(a fish rots from the head)
AHHHH stop splashing the pot you bastard! :D
Whenever I see people splashing the pot in movies and no one calling them out I think back to my professional poker days and cringe very hard, haha.
You played poker professionally?
Then you must have nerves of stone and balls of steel!
I feel you! Every time I see that, I instinctively reach for the ‘floor manager’ button… only to realize I’m just yelling at my TV. 😆♠️
That's one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is the ninjamine - which is not only the Founder's stake that has become the DHF on Hive, but many whale accounts mined their stakes being present at the origin of Steem when the tokens were mined into existence. Because DV's prevent distribution, they concentrate stake, and as the platform was dominated by that mined stake by ~36 whales at it's outset, because of DV's the platform is dominated by ~36 whales today, who continue to own the majority of tokens.
A while back I commented on Valueplan's funding proposal and recommended that everyone that wanted to prevent fraud vote the Return proposal. Until I read this post I was unaware that this had born the fruit I wanted to produce, and I, rather uncharacteristically, am feeling very justified by this act by BT. I hope it is intended to produce the result I have stated was my purpose, which was to only fund proposals that agree to provide GAAP (generally accepted accounting procedures) to ensure that fraud and kickbacks aren't siphoned from the DHF, as I came to believe they were after my discussions with Valueplan principals, whom refused to provide receipts even for disbursements that were stated by eyewitnesses to be theft by fraud.
I hope there is no worse news or problem this event is meant to counter, and that it indeed is intended to require proposals to account for their expenditures so that fraud, or worse, such as accusations of providing funding to terrorist organizations, cannot result from DHF funding. Adhering to GAAP can secure the platform, the community, and service providers to funded proposals from baseless accusations of malfeasance by demonstrating their disbursements are all above board and completely justified.
Thanks!
If decentralization means putting in a little and taking a lot then there is a problem of meaning. In this way it is obvious that there is cannibalization of value. It's like politicians who only thinks about their own pockets instead of the common good. On Hive I have bought much more than I have sold, so I support any DHF expense that generates value, otherwise I don't like anything that costs a lot but is useless for growth. This should be a strong ideal for everyone here
We do have a solution to this being worked on INLEO directing its revenue towards LPs. The growth is very slow at the moment. Streaming swaps and upcoming Chainflip integration helps to minimize the price volatility when making trades.
We should not play defense at our problems for too long. We need to take offense and build up the liquidity to make it possible for large $HIVE trades to happen. Whales are not going to invest in HIVE if they cannot get in without getting wrecked by slippage. The progress is slow, but we have a solution.
Interesting news indeed, I am placing my limit orders conveniently just in case
Limit orders for what? Buying Hive on a dip? Or... ?
With the constant selling funding DHF proposals create, the supply of Hive on exchanges is likely to shrink. This should cause the price of Hive to rise on exchanges because of the Law of Supply and Demand.
In fact Hive has risen $.02 since the OP was published. By the above explanation, this is the dip to be buying.
I don't understand this argument really. You do know that the selling pressure from the DHF is essentially nothing compared to the volume we have on exchanges? Not even counting the days we have hundreds of millions of volume. Or am I missing something?
The Law of Supply and Demand isn't closely correlated to specific ratios, and the question I responded to was regarding the mechanism, and not it's magnitude. While an particular source of supply can be small in magnitude, it can be far larger in the impact on the market for a variety of reasons, depending on the perceptions of the market.
In comparison to the volume generally transacted, the DHF isn't a substantial percentage, but it's significance may be far more substantial as a signal of improved management of Hive being implemented than it's proportionate contribution to that volume.
Are you sure?
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@tobetada/dhf-drama-and-why-you-are-wrong
====> 15 000 / 87 000 000 = 0.0001724... <====
... 0.0172%
No, I am absolutely not sure, and now that the Return proposal is restored to inefficacy, I am less sure than ever. BTW, I do appreciate sound criticism as you have given me. It is that most valuable prize I can be awarded, that grants me the ability to become right when I am wrong.
I'm playing both sides
Many projects will be affected with this so let's see how it goes and surely some drama is expected.
whoa! That IS some big news! I hope everything pans out good for hive.. 😉😎👊
Well the lord has spoken!!
Thanks a lot, @edicted, for shedding a light on how the DHF works and its usual impact on the $HIVE price. That's something I was completely unaware of 😅.
This is a very big news that can affect the status of Hive in the next days
$PIZZA slices delivered:
(1/10) @danzocal tipped @edicted
ecency getting funded is good, also i think all good ideas deserve a chance but on the other hand manipulation needs to b prevented as well- so things needs to b carefully balanced. "problems with the DHF is that it controls the ninjamine... which should have been destroyed but instead is now controlled by a couple of key accounts" wanna read more about that, "Hive is clearly a lot more centralized than a few of the evangelists around here like to admit" i'm not aware of any other platform & coin that's completely decentralized but i hope n general & for hive more specifically that situation improves gradually overtime & hopefully more adoption specially with "EVM compatible hive". have a great day
If only this was still the case. Blocktrades seems to have wothdrawn his vote, as several projects are again getting DHF funding. I like the idea of shaking up the ecosystem, and I remember well your post about the biggest error we made when we left Steemit was to create the DHF out of the Ninja Mine.
Why is Eccency so popular?
Because they know how to do a play on words, I guess. When I started on Steem, I landed on steemit for the web site. When looking for an android client, there was Esteem. When I came back after the hard fork to Hive, the web site was peakd and the android client became ecency. I still go to peakd for web access and the ecency web site just happens to be where my shared links are parked.
3speak forked ecency for their web site, so that makes two reasons to fund ecency. If you count their Breakaway Communities that seems to include a mini-ecency hosting requirement then that bumps up to over 100.
Interesting. Does InLeo get support from 3Speak?
!PIZZA