Why don't we take on Reddit?

in Ask the Hive2 years ago (edited)

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Watching all the drama unfold with Game Stop and the Reddit forum, Wallstreetbets unfold got me thinking...Why isn't Hive anywhere near the amount of users that that forum garnered after that all the commotion?

I mean, Hive is very much kind of like Reddit in format right? Wallstreetbets user base catapulted to over 8 million in a span of a couple of weeks! If only Hive can get anywhere near that, we would be shooting up to the moon.

I just don't understand why this platform seems so inclusive. It's the same old dudes and dudettes funneling the same shit, scratching each others back and doing the old circle jerk that made Steemit the butt of old jokes.

Why isn't there more concerted promotion and marketing and reaching out to a broader audience? Let's get the peeps from WSB to join this platform - steal them from Reddit's grasp.

I just saw a post the other day about trying to get Elon Musk to tweet about Hive so it can get exposure, well fuck that and fuck Elon. We need to take on Reddit. We need the same amount of users coming here and using this platform.

As it stands, you don't get awarded for shit at Reddit other than the stupid karma system. Here, you can actually get PAID for posting content. I think we have it wrong all along and going after the likes of FB or Twitter. We need to steal Reddit's user base. Make them come here and for a WSB version 2.

At the very least, I'm tired of the lack of growth in this platform and the stagnation. I think we need a concerted effort to make this platform more accessible (and I know that sounds like we're beating a dead horse) just like Reddit. Let's grow the fucking user base. Let's do it already for fuck's sake.

To prove, just Google hive. Where does it take you? It doesn't even end up on the first page of Google's search results! How pathetic is that? There should be some kind of leadership that addresses these issues. Why aren't there?

Let's make it easy for everyone to join! Let's set aside some resources for marketing and getting this platform exposed to the rest of the world.

Seriously, now everyone knows what the fuck Dogecoin but no one outside of Hive knows about Hive. How fucking shitty is that? A shitcoin that's got no platform is shooting up to the moon and Hive is still stuck in the same quagmire that Steem was?

We need some fresh ideas guys, like pronto. Sitting here doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is just plain stupid. Scouring the trending posts, there's a bunch of projects around the platform to do all kinds of cool shit but never anything that would create trading memes that would reach out to millions of people in all corners of the earth.

Why not focus on getting users and more exposure than writing more code to make all kinds of cool apps that nobody is ever going to use because they've never heard of it.

What do you guys think?

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It's the good old problem of system centered design.

All viral social media products the past decades have all been built around human centered design: Looking at how to better solve the problem of helping people find the content they're most likely to engage with, all whilst making the process fun, enjoyable and addictive based on human habits and reward mechanisms (the dopamine you get from getting a like, or from feeling entertained from landing on a fun TikTok video that results in you keeping on clicking what's essentially a slot machine.)

Meanwhile, Hive (and Steem before it) was created by techies with an idea of a Reddit like platform and a complex reward system behind it. However, that came with a lot of assumptions about the platform being used just like reddit but with a reward mechanism working in the background to trend good content, reward early curators as well as the best creators. But this comes with the same failure that always happens when you assume all else equal, because the mere introduction of rewards based on votes changes how people vote (as they care more about getting high rewards at minimum effort than elevating good content). Thus making the trending, hot, and community pages terrible for content discovery, and engagement goes down the drain with it. Now, some might say that the platform offers a solution in the form of downvotes, allowing the community to self-correct by voting down over-rated content or that which is simply auto-voted. However, this then makes the platform dependent on people putting in work and effort that is not enjoyable, opposite to the structure of successful social platforms.

A proper social platform would be built the other way around: Understanding first what humans want to do, and then building a system to enable, support and maximize that. Imo that can only be achieved by completely disregarding the reward pool idea that currently exist, and instead focus on Hive being a platform where users really own and control their own accounts, where the content is stored decentralized, and where there is a fast and fee-less token designed to work well on the plaltform. Sites like Peakd.com could still choose to reward users in this currency, and we could create demand for it that way.

But most importantly: We need to build a social platform centred around user experience where our product adapts to the user, rather than expecting users to adapt to the product (which never works.)

What changes do you think we could make?

I think first, just make it really easy for people to join. That's it. Worry about the other things later. Most people don't speak Blockchain and DPOS. The complex reward system shouldn't be the selling point. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Reddit doesn't reward anyone anything and yet everyone uses the platform.

Why is that? They've gotta be doing something right. Why not reverse engineer their success and somehow get it to work here. It's not about how great a platform Hive is, we know it is but why aren't regular people using it?

Have you tried to sign up a friend using https://hiveonboard.com/create-account ?

First a shift in mentality and approach:
To begin understanding and analysing what users want, and how to build a compatible and sustainable token economics and blockchain around that. Rather than being stuck working on a fixed system and trying (helplessly) to make it function.

One start would be for sites like peakd.com to ignore stake in how it filters content. And instead use user data on how they engage to present content they're most likely to want to consume and engage with.

Yes the frontends have to develop their own content algorithms which are unrelated to stake. That and lite accounts. And the focus being on owning direct relationships with your own followers (rather than via a corporate intermediary who can block access to your followers at any time) so you essentially own your own reach.

@intrepidphotos @fredrikaa That would be great. we would also consider using API from other 3rd parties that offer really good solutions for this.

How cool would it be to have several open source independent algorithms that the you could select on the frontends just like you select your node.

Sounds like pretty good ideas that can be implemented by frontends to help content discovery (and I guess community discovery - if I find a cool piece of content, I might enjoy following the author but also joining the community where it was posted).

I don't think it's quite as simple as you make it out. Most social media platforms competing with the major players are ghost towns; for social media due to the network effect it is often all or nothing and platforms can be dead and explode into life or vice versa. Just look at the VERO madness a few years ago with everyone going to quit Instagram and move over, millions did and by 2017 they had all left and it went bankrupt. If you don't get critical mass they all simply fail. What is incredible is that Hive is still here and operating. It shows that at a base level the community here is sustainable which most so called killer apps don't have and quickly die when their VC funding runs out.

The reality is that the tech is not ready for mainstream. It's still too complex and too hard to engage without too much commitment. But I have high hopes in this regard and I think it lies with what is happening with lite accounts on @leofinance and @threespeak is the way forward. Hopefully @dapplr and @peakd are not far behind with their 'lite' account onboarding systems. No commitment engagement, with user generated passwords. That is what is needed IMO for this place to explode. Let people engage and if they get sucked down the rabit hole let them take control of their keys. But without some front end central password management system for lite accounts, it is simply too much commitment to engage. No influencer can bring his followers here on mass until that happens; many have tried and failed. Peoples eyes roll when you start talking crypto keys and move on to the next fad.

I saw @theycallmedan was trying to engage with the Wallstbets reddit guys via twitter. Not sure if that went anywhere. The focus has to be on owning the relationship with your own followers, rather than having that relationship controlled by an intermediary. That is what brought me here (when Instagram forced me onto business account and then cut my reach from 40k per post to 10k and then requested I pay each post to get it back), but the system has been too complex to bring over more than a handful of my 80k followers across social media.

@intrepidphotos What should someone who doesn't have their own keys be able to do?
Aka if PeakD does a custodial account what should that user be able to do or not do?
For example what if they could:

  • comment
  • change all sorts of peakd settings
  • edit their profile
  • Subscribe to communities
  • hit the heart button (not that they have anything much in their wallet)
  • and curate and use favorites and bookmarks and upcoming content collections

But not do things that have higher probabilities of earning money (like posts) because they don't have true ownership over because they are not in control of their own keys and we don't bother them with features like proposals or governance and wallets since their wallet should hopefully be mostly empty reducing the risk to them and us since we are at a higher risk being a custodian of their keys.

cc @asgarth

It is a hard question; but I think they have to be able to post. It needs to feel just as simple to use and as functional as Reddit etc. I think the Leo approach is good; they simply create an individual account for every lite account but hold the keys in escrow essentially so they can just log in using Twitter login etc until the person is ready to take custodial ownership, but they keep their initial rewards etc. You could have reminders to take custody of the account when they hit a certain HP level to minimize hacking risk of central control. That requires a lot of delegation to set it up and create all those accounts however, they are incentivizing the delegation to their main account (by paying out something like 18% IRR in Leo ) to cover this RC onboarding requirements. Alternatively with the above account system you could set all lite account rewards to go to PeakD for instance (or whoever set up the lite accounts and provided delegation) and this would allow them to interact, but stop any buildup of funds in the account so remove any motivation for hacking the light accounts, and provide an incentive for them to take control of the account when they actually started to earn enough income they thought was worth the hassle and learning curve .

  1. Interesting idea that if they are not real owners of their account (aka "custodian accounts"... because let's be honest here they are NOT actual owners of their own accounts... whoever has the keys is) that perhaps the beneficiary could be partly peakd or maybe partly null or maybe a community pool.

  2. has someone asked LEO what happens if all the Passwords/keys they are holding in custodialship get hacked? There is an increasingly higher risk of problems and attacks as that user base grows or more money is in their accounts.

  3. But we have talked about these sort of things so we are interested in the discussion. But our main advertising about the site (home page changing soon) is about True Ownership so we will be completely up front with users that this is a sort of intermediary step for those who i guess aren't ready or maybe don't even care if they have true ownership of their content, connections and crypto.

  4. I understand the need for those sorts of stepping-stone accounts however I'm personally a bit disappointed that so many people think that the answer to our problems is to create a product that goes against the biggest and best feature of Hive ... that people can have true ownership over their own content, connections and money.

Again i think we'll do it but we're gonna keep reminding those users that they aren't the actual owners until they have complete control over their own keys and they're doing the transactions themselves with one of the login software options. (because lite/custodial accounts won't be doing their own transactions is the assumption peakd will be doing the transactions for them)

Yes agree I think you need to have them get no rewards. This could be either via sent to Null or preferably (until we get RC pools) returned to the delegation pool who 'paid' for the account creation and activity with their RC credits to encourage people to delegate to set up the accounts. Having rewards build up simply creates incentive for hackers, and also creates potential tax issues for people who just want casual engagement. If all the accounts have no value (just a delegation) then there should be no incentive for hacking (no more than anyone hacking a FB account for example).

Here's another topic of discussion... is there a way to see what accounts are held in custodianship by services like LEO?

Do you think we should be letting our users know on operation like wallet transfers that "The account you are transfering to is not truly owned by the user you are transferring to... it is held in custodianship by a separate company. Are you sure you want to transfer them tokens?"

We will likely not allow crypto transfers to accounts we hold in custodianship however there is the issue that a user could use another system to transfer to accounts we hold as custodians.

Yes that is interesting; would have to ask Leo that one. In a way they are a little like exchange held crypto accounts , although in this case more secure as its not just one massive account to be hacked, its hundred of smaller accounts but still the master key register is vulnerable.

Sigh...This is exactly why this platform isn't growing or stagnating. Bunch of auto votes. No comments.

And you waited just one hour to post that comment ?

I feel you on this one man. People just form cliques and stick with them. Jerking the same shit and not actually giving the social experience.
I think leofinance might be the solution but then again, there's still the usual circle jerking and emphasis on token there.

I don't think Hive is ready for that to be honest. They fear change.

It's the same old dudes and dudettes funneling the same shit, scratching each others back and doing the old circle jerk that made Steemit the butt of old jokes.

When the 'old guard' has gone away, which may take awhile since some of them got major boosts during the transition, then maybe we'll see a new day here. I have hopes, and would love to see that many people here. If we're trying to be Reddit, we'll never get anywhere and I think that's part of the problem. Instead of letting Hive become what it can, people are stifled and there is a forced slow direction and progression.

What I would like to see is if a small community of global users (something like the 10,000 users we have) can sustain itself without attracting the masses. By sustain, I mean, support each member with a livable income. And I think the 'circle jerks' could be a way to attain that. We can see these circles as communities of mutual support, a modern day equivalent of the guild. Those are already in place and growing: the writers, photographers, gamers, etc. For these groups to think of themselves as a collective, support themselves and each member to grow their share of the pie and increase their earning potential until it is livable. I think this is already happening. And when the Ink Well, for example, has a vote large enough to pay a short story writer several hundred bucks worth of Hive for their work ... then more people will come and it will also be unnecessary for more people to come. I don't see why that couldn't work.

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There used to be an app that autoposted to reddit, I miss that. Otherwise, I think Hive/Peakd can stand alone with the right development. Maybe even exceed these.

I am new here so I will keep my comment experience related.
Make the platform user friendly, let's face it, it's tough for a newbie to get in and get started.
The editor can do with some revamping.
That's what I see from my two weeks here.