I don't think it's broken either but some people do and it's nice to know how people feel about stuff, I want people to do well and would help anyone who ask reasonably besides the standard "upvote my stuff cause I posted it"...I'm sure many here feel the same way.
I hear you. I just think there's a lack of consumers combined with a push to always onboard new creators. So that's a recipe for disaster. People want votes. Consumers do the voting. Some folks only want big votes and think the place is broken if they don't get them. That's ridiculous. Doesn't matter what size the account is. That's still only one consumer. They can't possibly get around to thousands of posts in a day. I know I can't.
Most of the issues people face are due to the lack of consumers. What's interesting is often some of the folks complaining don't go out and vote much or engage. But at the same time, it's really hard to play both roles.
Also I commit to commenting here and you can see I leave lengthy engagement comments relevant to the users content. Often they respond with appreciation because it's rare to them.
Sometimes I critique and people get offended and sensitive. That's ok. If I speak falsehoods then I welcome a decent rebuttal. It too generates engagement, after all.
Lol no I meant in general some people get sensitive if a person is to critical of flaws here.
Btw the notifications are broken. Why did they change it to highlight the comment that got the reply and not the actual reply? @peakd is this a front-end thing or API issue?
Yes I definitely understand your stance, I see the same on just about every word.
It's definitely hard to play both roles some can some can't. That's the beauty of it, you do what you want and you get what you put in. It's an attention economy and it's competitive. Not every actor gets cast in a movie just cause their an actor and so on...same concept. Consumers are vital and right now it's all sheriffs and no bandits.
I share my nonsense on my personal facebook page or randomly in private conversations that pop up even year old posts...I share it like it's a cheap prostitute at last call at the bar. The content is useful to them and they want to support, so many external viewers that never get to vote or comment everyone seems to forget about...outsider lives matter too! People need to think bigger than just the platform. Sharing our content where there already eyeballs to see...This is just a publishing platform. There is more to it then click post and walking away. It's up to each and everyone of us to bring our content to the consumer and the more people do that, more will encounter hive and get curious. It's marketing for dummies.
If it's not interesting for people outside of hive, it may not be interesting for hive either...just sayin
Oh yeah, I saw that one and I still read it again, I agree with a lot of it and I know you and I have both preaching about that concept for years. Every once in a while just blow the dust off see if it will work this year!
some of my stuff is more platform oriented so that stays here, it's probably for the best it can be a little demented...lol. My travel and trail posts, that gets quite handy to just post links instead of trying to explain it 1000 times every time someone asks because everyone knows I'm a hiker and I know where to find nice spots.
I detached myself from my outcome here so I don't get too frustrated. Post when I want don't when I don't feel like it. That being said, also a good way to gage what type of users you want, full time? casual? anything will do? Frustrated users tend to go away... it doesn't exactly spell out user retention.
A sprained ankle then.
Or some sepsis going unchecked.
Seriously though.
Imo, had steemit had the ability for user retention there would be no need for all this patchwork that Hive now needs as a must in order to stop the leakage.
I know you've got some good ideas and respect your input but I've seen you yourself say that it's just pointless to onboard to what's currently here.
Chat + superior mobile experience is my two vitals. Without that all I see is fragmentation and only die hards accept that.
If that's what Hive wants to cater to then OK. Which, imo, is why devs don't really go ham. They like it niche. Community however pretends the masses want to come here. When, that's actually conditional.
Can it do what mainstream does and more?
Answer: No.
Does it have enough content to induce gratification overload to make me go there and stay hypnotised, drooling with delight, despite Hive lacking the other things mainstream does for me?
Answer: No, sorry I bothered you.
I know you believe that too because again I agree with your point that CONSUMERS OF CONTENT aren't catered to here and if they were here in large numbers, they would be a source of revenue.
The "paying customer" after all is why all social platforms came into existence. One way or another our activity generates the money. However, content didn't come into existence on the internet from the get go. There was once a time when putting yourself online was a negative. So it was once all that started existing that Big Tech pounced like a vulture.
This here Hive (steemit) attempted it in reverse. Money before the content. Worse: Platform without completeness.
Steemit days retention issues stem from the onboarding practice of attracting new members with a subtle promise of getting paid. Nobody told them it would be like Youtube, where you have to grind to build a following of consistent supporters. These amateurs showed up expecting to earn the big bucks with a Facebook like status message. Then said the place was broken when nobody wanted to buy their ridiculous pamphlets with upvotes.
In reality, creating content is a tough gig. Most fail. Look at Youtube. One cannot simply make a video and go viral. So people leaving because they failed as content creators is normal. It's the consumers who always stick around. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands more will fail on Youtube, but that doesn't stop people from watching videos.
We just need to shift the focus to attracting consumers. There's plenty here for them, including rewards. But if they come here expecting to earn the big bucks for leaving comments, they will be disappointed. Still, earning a nickel for leaving a comment is far more than all Youtube consumers earned in the past decade. Consumers also earn consumer rewards. They can also have their money back if they purchase stake and decide this isn't for them. These are easy selling points.
Since they're such easy selling points, I tend to glare at some of these creators here with big outside followings. You know the type. The one's with hundreds of thousands of followers outside the platform, but no comments under their posts here.
I don't blame the platform. As I said here I only try to onboard consumers interested in my product now. Nothing else. And if these folks wit large followings did that, they'd be offering their consumers a great deal as well as setting themselves up with a solid revenue stream. It's an intriguing business model and incredibly disruptive to the entertainment industry when the full potential is realized.
It is a very important point to attract CONSUMERS who only want to consume content, without the false illusion or motivated by receiving some money in return.
That is a problem, many come to this type of platform with the sole intention of making money, others with seeking more freedom of expression which they do not get on Facebook or YouTube.
I consume very specific content, such as topics that talk about life, thoughts, things like that, it hurts that in my original language (Spanish) there is not much of that, but in the end I am a consumer.
That is lacking here, but that motivation is in some cases backed by money.
Perhaps the success of the platform comes when people see SHARING as their first motivation and finally being rewarded if their work really deserves it.
Commitment and desire to do things well, I believe that together we can turn this around and that errors and failures have a solution.
The fact remains though, they do earn. They can play games, browse content, upvote, engage. All of this pays. Power consumers can earn enough for a new device to browse on if they try hard enough. And one cannot fail as a consumer here.
Have you ever watched a livestream on Youtube or elsewhere and notice all that consumer money pouring in? 30% of that goes to Youtube. Consumers love to spend money and here they actually get a return on that investment. This platform needs consumers and creators who actually understand the business model.
True, it's not all about money, but the part that is involves money going out the door so in order to make that sustainable, there must be money coming in the door.
See that's all true and completely relevant to the state of Hive. I agree with you completely and see minds like yours as vital to the road ahead.
It's the consumers who always stick around.
That's why I believe money/rewards (and promise of) before content was what set this all up for failure. For what could people stick around for?
So then the fundamental flaws that exist right now is Hive punishes low level votes. Hive doesn't provide consumer connectivity ON HIVE. It also has a ridiculous system of CURATORS getting more than the actual content creators.
WTF!?
Blind trail voters over actual creators?
So hey I'm all for community love parades of "make best use of what you have" but fundamentals that are broken going unchecked is an issue that keeps on bleeding out.
Even @acidyo makes the point that this initiative is manageable now. However if millions of users come, then one person can't manage it. It's people that keep it going. The network effect.
But then... it's either:
the platform sustains it / or kills it.
I think you are putting words in my mouth, I never said onboarding was a moot point, I said we need more of it. This comprehension issue or putting words in my mouth is getting old real fast.
The platform shouldn't be advertised as a cash cow and that's why it failed with the s-word. People got attracted here for the wrong reasons and that's why many didn't stay cause they weren't making 1k a day shitposting flashy pop ups that will make your eyes bleed . The platform is young it has a few sharp edges that can be smoothened , yes, I have always agreed with that, we have a long way to go and it's not going to happen yesterday. Hive needs people of hive to produce content that is consumable outside of hive and share it to an audience of their own in some shape or form rather than be entirely focused on onboarding. With it's many flaws, people still under-use what is already available. This can be a powerful tool if we use actually use it right... Fix the bugs as we go along.
I chose to see it as a self publishing tool and not an audience, although still appreciate the fact that I can build one here too...the rest is up to me where it goes beyond the platform. More need to think that way. Make sense socially? no?
This place may not make everyone and their grannies rush over doesn't mean it can't be used outside of the platform, where ads for outsiders would come in handy to cash in on those who might be underwhelmed in using the platform daily but might come across a nice article or two his friend posted in a private message that is still viewership.
I agree private chat would be vital for sure and help with usability and socializing.
At the end of the day, your content is your product and subject to market demand and some people around here expect to fill shelves and keep the doors to the store locked and expect stuff to fly off the shelves.
A movie producer doesn't fill seats to a theater cause he made a movie...He has to advertise it. That is personal responsibility not the blockchain's fault.
Fiery one!
Ain't no ladybug. You're a scorpion!
Lol I really like your expressive and outspokenness manner though. Seriously this conversation is only a sliver of people here but it's intense, passionate and robust.
Conversations like this are actually attractive to outsiders and live as value long after the post is forgotten. I remember on steemit early days I would get consumed in past posts that involved lots of committed individuals that had disagreements. A newbie really gets a feel for the network by posts like that.
It also indirectly sells the "community" element and tells the viewer that people here believe in the product. The money thing I see as secondary. Opportunity for that has many angles. Like you said, good promoters know how to get their product to market.
The network effect however is the core issue. Steemit and Hive just haven't mastered that. I could say why, but then you already know, because I've already made that point.
Sometimes my alter ego shadybug comes out to play. I am opinionated and my real job is making it work with a bunch of dudes who think I shouldn't be there in the oilfield. I have learned when to be a fly on the wall or come out guns-a-blazin...I think it was just my calling to be strong willed! I'm a Sagittarius, the most fiery sign in the zodiac.
I agree 100% with what you said, I used to be glued to those posts back in the day, it's probably what got me addicted to this place, I got fat on all the popcorn. I live for the productive drama that went on like this where it doesn't resort to name calling or immaturities.
Like you said, that's when we seemed to find direction rather then just drift to wherever we drift to. I think it makes newbies want to learn about the platform to know what we are talking about and benefits them by learning how to work it. We are the old school and we hustled for a long time. Sometimes people expect instant results and it just doesn't work that way.
To an outside investor, it looks like discussions are made and directions are taken based on community consensus as they state is the heart of the project. Like you said, a community that cares of the outcome of the platform even if we can't all get along. I Think that's the point in community led...we all want something, we can't all have what we want.
It's not even about getting hive to market to go fully mainstream. I think the content consumers everyone cries about will never join the platform because crypto and writing isn't their thing. Doesn't mean they don't like the content. Hive devs need to find a way to tap that value because that's where it is. I understand devs have a vision, large investors want token value, the socialites want usability, imagine that in one great package. If it doesn't match up with what consumers want, there will not be consumers and that affects token value.
I don't think it's broken either but some people do and it's nice to know how people feel about stuff, I want people to do well and would help anyone who ask reasonably besides the standard "upvote my stuff cause I posted it"...I'm sure many here feel the same way.
I hear you. I just think there's a lack of consumers combined with a push to always onboard new creators. So that's a recipe for disaster. People want votes. Consumers do the voting. Some folks only want big votes and think the place is broken if they don't get them. That's ridiculous. Doesn't matter what size the account is. That's still only one consumer. They can't possibly get around to thousands of posts in a day. I know I can't.
Most of the issues people face are due to the lack of consumers. What's interesting is often some of the folks complaining don't go out and vote much or engage. But at the same time, it's really hard to play both roles.
See you agree: consumers.
Also I commit to commenting here and you can see I leave lengthy engagement comments relevant to the users content. Often they respond with appreciation because it's rare to them.
Sometimes I critique and people get offended and sensitive. That's ok. If I speak falsehoods then I welcome a decent rebuttal. It too generates engagement, after all.
I'm not the sensitive type. Would you believe I just spent the last fifteen minutes on the shitter?
Lol no I meant in general some people get sensitive if a person is to critical of flaws here.
Btw the notifications are broken. Why did they change it to highlight the comment that got the reply and not the actual reply?
@peakd is this a front-end thing or API issue?
It makes a conversation confusing!
It does! Another sharp edge 😂
cc @asgarth
Yes I definitely understand your stance, I see the same on just about every word.
It's definitely hard to play both roles some can some can't. That's the beauty of it, you do what you want and you get what you put in. It's an attention economy and it's competitive. Not every actor gets cast in a movie just cause their an actor and so on...same concept. Consumers are vital and right now it's all sheriffs and no bandits.
I share my nonsense on my personal facebook page or randomly in private conversations that pop up even year old posts...I share it like it's a cheap prostitute at last call at the bar. The content is useful to them and they want to support, so many external viewers that never get to vote or comment everyone seems to forget about...outsider lives matter too! People need to think bigger than just the platform. Sharing our content where there already eyeballs to see...This is just a publishing platform. There is more to it then click post and walking away. It's up to each and everyone of us to bring our content to the consumer and the more people do that, more will encounter hive and get curious. It's marketing for dummies.
If it's not interesting for people outside of hive, it may not be interesting for hive either...just sayin
Yeah. I don't share posts like this to the outside. Some of that more creative shit I do though definitely gets passed around.
Did you see that post? It's about tying things together. Streamlining the consumer experience.
This world right now is going in many directions at once and everyone, including myself, needs to be patient with a few things.
I'll become frustrated if I find myself experiencing the same concerns in six months.
Oh yeah, I saw that one and I still read it again, I agree with a lot of it and I know you and I have both preaching about that concept for years. Every once in a while just blow the dust off see if it will work this year!
some of my stuff is more platform oriented so that stays here, it's probably for the best it can be a little demented...lol. My travel and trail posts, that gets quite handy to just post links instead of trying to explain it 1000 times every time someone asks because everyone knows I'm a hiker and I know where to find nice spots.
I detached myself from my outcome here so I don't get too frustrated. Post when I want don't when I don't feel like it. That being said, also a good way to gage what type of users you want, full time? casual? anything will do? Frustrated users tend to go away... it doesn't exactly spell out user retention.
A sprained ankle then.
Or some sepsis going unchecked.
Seriously though.
Imo, had steemit had the ability for user retention there would be no need for all this patchwork that Hive now needs as a must in order to stop the leakage.
I know you've got some good ideas and respect your input but I've seen you yourself say that it's just pointless to onboard to what's currently here.
Chat + superior mobile experience is my two vitals. Without that all I see is fragmentation and only die hards accept that.
If that's what Hive wants to cater to then OK. Which, imo, is why devs don't really go ham. They like it niche. Community however pretends the masses want to come here. When, that's actually conditional.
Can it do what mainstream does and more?
Answer: No.
Does it have enough content to induce gratification overload to make me go there and stay hypnotised, drooling with delight, despite Hive lacking the other things mainstream does for me?
Answer: No, sorry I bothered you.
I know you believe that too because again I agree with your point that CONSUMERS OF CONTENT aren't catered to here and if they were here in large numbers, they would be a source of revenue.
The "paying customer" after all is why all social platforms came into existence. One way or another our activity generates the money. However, content didn't come into existence on the internet from the get go. There was once a time when putting yourself online was a negative. So it was once all that started existing that Big Tech pounced like a vulture.
This here Hive (steemit) attempted it in reverse. Money before the content. Worse: Platform without completeness.
To me that's the broken.
It's got a few zits, sure.
Steemit days retention issues stem from the onboarding practice of attracting new members with a subtle promise of getting paid. Nobody told them it would be like Youtube, where you have to grind to build a following of consistent supporters. These amateurs showed up expecting to earn the big bucks with a Facebook like status message. Then said the place was broken when nobody wanted to buy their ridiculous pamphlets with upvotes.
In reality, creating content is a tough gig. Most fail. Look at Youtube. One cannot simply make a video and go viral. So people leaving because they failed as content creators is normal. It's the consumers who always stick around. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands more will fail on Youtube, but that doesn't stop people from watching videos.
We just need to shift the focus to attracting consumers. There's plenty here for them, including rewards. But if they come here expecting to earn the big bucks for leaving comments, they will be disappointed. Still, earning a nickel for leaving a comment is far more than all Youtube consumers earned in the past decade. Consumers also earn consumer rewards. They can also have their money back if they purchase stake and decide this isn't for them. These are easy selling points.
Since they're such easy selling points, I tend to glare at some of these creators here with big outside followings. You know the type. The one's with hundreds of thousands of followers outside the platform, but no comments under their posts here.
I don't blame the platform. As I said here I only try to onboard consumers interested in my product now. Nothing else. And if these folks wit large followings did that, they'd be offering their consumers a great deal as well as setting themselves up with a solid revenue stream. It's an intriguing business model and incredibly disruptive to the entertainment industry when the full potential is realized.
It is a very important point to attract CONSUMERS who only want to consume content, without the false illusion or motivated by receiving some money in return.
That is a problem, many come to this type of platform with the sole intention of making money, others with seeking more freedom of expression which they do not get on Facebook or YouTube.
I consume very specific content, such as topics that talk about life, thoughts, things like that, it hurts that in my original language (Spanish) there is not much of that, but in the end I am a consumer.
That is lacking here, but that motivation is in some cases backed by money.
Perhaps the success of the platform comes when people see SHARING as their first motivation and finally being rewarded if their work really deserves it.
Commitment and desire to do things well, I believe that together we can turn this around and that errors and failures have a solution.
The fact remains though, they do earn. They can play games, browse content, upvote, engage. All of this pays. Power consumers can earn enough for a new device to browse on if they try hard enough. And one cannot fail as a consumer here.
Have you ever watched a livestream on Youtube or elsewhere and notice all that consumer money pouring in? 30% of that goes to Youtube. Consumers love to spend money and here they actually get a return on that investment. This platform needs consumers and creators who actually understand the business model.
Every point of view is valid.
The point is that we must have other motivations, not just money.
Yes, of course, money is important to advance, and all that that entails.
But it should not be the only motivation.
True, it's not all about money, but the part that is involves money going out the door so in order to make that sustainable, there must be money coming in the door.
I understand perfectly gentleman.
What we are sure of is that we must find a way for everything to flow the right way or at least try to do something right.
There are many points, different topics to discuss, but it will depend on the community and the platform how everything develops.
See that's all true and completely relevant to the state of Hive. I agree with you completely and see minds like yours as vital to the road ahead.
That's why I believe money/rewards (and promise of) before content was what set this all up for failure. For what could people stick around for?
So then the fundamental flaws that exist right now is Hive punishes low level votes. Hive doesn't provide consumer connectivity ON HIVE. It also has a ridiculous system of CURATORS getting more than the actual content creators.
WTF!?
Blind trail voters over actual creators?
So hey I'm all for community love parades of "make best use of what you have" but fundamentals that are broken going unchecked is an issue that keeps on bleeding out.
Even @acidyo makes the point that this initiative is manageable now. However if millions of users come, then one person can't manage it. It's people that keep it going. The network effect.
But then... it's either:
the platform sustains it / or kills it.
I think @acidyo going to be pissed this comment section got derailed. LOL!
Lol Engagement!
And solid points.
He muted me long ago though.
I didn't appreciate his love.
I think you are putting words in my mouth, I never said onboarding was a moot point, I said we need more of it. This comprehension issue or putting words in my mouth is getting old real fast.
The platform shouldn't be advertised as a cash cow and that's why it failed with the s-word. People got attracted here for the wrong reasons and that's why many didn't stay cause they weren't making 1k a day shitposting flashy pop ups that will make your eyes bleed . The platform is young it has a few sharp edges that can be smoothened , yes, I have always agreed with that, we have a long way to go and it's not going to happen yesterday. Hive needs people of hive to produce content that is consumable outside of hive and share it to an audience of their own in some shape or form rather than be entirely focused on onboarding. With it's many flaws, people still under-use what is already available. This can be a powerful tool if we use actually use it right... Fix the bugs as we go along.
I chose to see it as a self publishing tool and not an audience, although still appreciate the fact that I can build one here too...the rest is up to me where it goes beyond the platform. More need to think that way. Make sense socially? no?
This place may not make everyone and their grannies rush over doesn't mean it can't be used outside of the platform, where ads for outsiders would come in handy to cash in on those who might be underwhelmed in using the platform daily but might come across a nice article or two his friend posted in a private message that is still viewership.
I agree private chat would be vital for sure and help with usability and socializing.
At the end of the day, your content is your product and subject to market demand and some people around here expect to fill shelves and keep the doors to the store locked and expect stuff to fly off the shelves.
A movie producer doesn't fill seats to a theater cause he made a movie...He has to advertise it. That is personal responsibility not the blockchain's fault.
Fiery one!
Ain't no ladybug. You're a scorpion!
Lol I really like your expressive and outspokenness manner though. Seriously this conversation is only a sliver of people here but it's intense, passionate and robust.
Conversations like this are actually attractive to outsiders and live as value long after the post is forgotten. I remember on steemit early days I would get consumed in past posts that involved lots of committed individuals that had disagreements. A newbie really gets a feel for the network by posts like that.
It also indirectly sells the "community" element and tells the viewer that people here believe in the product. The money thing I see as secondary. Opportunity for that has many angles. Like you said, good promoters know how to get their product to market.
The network effect however is the core issue. Steemit and Hive just haven't mastered that. I could say why, but then you already know, because I've already made that point.
Take care ladybug!
Sometimes my alter ego shadybug comes out to play. I am opinionated and my real job is making it work with a bunch of dudes who think I shouldn't be there in the oilfield. I have learned when to be a fly on the wall or come out guns-a-blazin...I think it was just my calling to be strong willed! I'm a Sagittarius, the most fiery sign in the zodiac.
I agree 100% with what you said, I used to be glued to those posts back in the day, it's probably what got me addicted to this place, I got fat on all the popcorn. I live for the productive drama that went on like this where it doesn't resort to name calling or immaturities.
Like you said, that's when we seemed to find direction rather then just drift to wherever we drift to. I think it makes newbies want to learn about the platform to know what we are talking about and benefits them by learning how to work it. We are the old school and we hustled for a long time. Sometimes people expect instant results and it just doesn't work that way.
To an outside investor, it looks like discussions are made and directions are taken based on community consensus as they state is the heart of the project. Like you said, a community that cares of the outcome of the platform even if we can't all get along. I Think that's the point in community led...we all want something, we can't all have what we want.
It's not even about getting hive to market to go fully mainstream. I think the content consumers everyone cries about will never join the platform because crypto and writing isn't their thing. Doesn't mean they don't like the content. Hive devs need to find a way to tap that value because that's where it is. I understand devs have a vision, large investors want token value, the socialites want usability, imagine that in one great package. If it doesn't match up with what consumers want, there will not be consumers and that affects token value.