Long Term Commitment
Yesterday, I did a short post about learning Japanese. I have no idea if I will ever be successful in saying 2 sentences in Japanese ever or not! However, the interesting thing was the response from people, either learning Japanese or another language or wanting to learn another language! I think I might have hit a chord with the language learning post. So I suddenly realized that this urge is in fact nothing to do with Japanese or any language learning at all; it is in fact finding a common ground about a long term commitment that many people dread, or wish for, or want to do and never does. I think that is what drives a lot of us.
That is me practicing Hiragana
When I looked up the relative difficulty of learning Japanese by an English speaker, it was trending fairly high on the list. Many places and websites say that Japanese is considered one of the hardest languages for English speakers to learn. Reaching fluency often takes years of dedicated study. I don't know about right or wrong on that. I know there are multiple native English speakers within our community who either lives in Japan or can speak Japanese fluently. @dbooster and @cryptomancer comes to find. Perhaps you guys will be a better judge of that than me. However, this scare tactics is working well for me as of now. Couple of reasons:
- I am not native English speaker
- The grammar and politeness level are inherent in India languages, I find it normal
- If you tell me something is difficult, that is typically a motivation for me
I have been able to list the cost-benefit table if you will as below. It typically helps me to think, as I study the Hiragana Mnemonic chart today. One website tells me, there is no need to practice writing Hiragana, while the other website suggests writing and practicing by hand. I always memorize better when I write. I have been a studious guy when I was in school back in the days in India, and we wrote volumes of stuff. They say math is not needed to be memorized? Well come talk to me! :)
| Benefits | Challenges |
|---|---|
| Access to Japanese culture | Complex writing system (kanji) |
| Better travel experiences in Japan | Difficult grammar and politeness levels |
| Career opportunities | Listening and pronunciation hurdles |
| Brain boost from learning | Few chances to practice outside Japan |
| Connect with Japanese speakers | Long time to reach fluency |
Why people are interested in learning new languages
I did a little bit of research on data from a couple a language websites I was visiting, mainly the Japan Foundation and 17-min Language, and they both had a lot of data on success and failure cases among adults learning Japanese.
By success they say, passable level, which means:
• Hold basic conversations on everyday topics (e.g., shopping, travel, introductions).
• Understand and respond to simple spoken and written Japanese.
• Use correct grammar and vocabulary in familiar situations.
• Read and write using hiragana, katakana, and a few hundred common kanji.
This typically aligns with A2 or B1 level on the CEFR scale, or N5 to N4 level on the JLPT (Japanese Language Proficiency Test).
| JLPT Level | With Kanji Knowledge | Without Kanji Knowledge |
|---|---|---|
| N5 | 350 hours | 400 – 500 hours |
| N4 | 550 hours | 800 – 1,000 hours |
| N3 | 900 hours | 1,325 hours |
| N2 | 1,500 hours | 2,200 hours |
| N1 | 2,150 hours | 3,900 – 4,500 hours |
I made an infographic with napkin to visualize this table. If I take that 4500 hour number on the high end, and if I say I can dedicate 2 hours a day every day, then it is 6+ years!! Ok, I am definitely going with Kanji!
So, clearly this is a long term commitment, even if I consider N2 level, I am still looking at 3 years, and that is studying every single day, which is very unlikely. That explains the high failure rate on the first plot for sure.
Is there any good news?
Perhaps. It typically helps if the language learning coincides with a hobby. I don't think just travel will cut it. It got to be more than that. However, the same data sources give the age distribution of the Japanese learners, mean of 39 years with a std. deviation of 14. If I add 1 std. deviation to the mean, I get 53. Phew! That means I do fall in the 66% range, LOL! What a false sense of security!
Wish me good luck!
I always handwrite too. That could just be an excuse to use my fountain pens, but I think it does help remember. The kana are relatively easy to memorize. Just write out a new line as well as the previous lines every day, or a few times a day. In no time at all, you'll have them memorized. The kanji, of course, are a tad more difficult.
The politeness is tricky, but we do have polite language in English — we just rarely use it these days, so that wasn't as rough for me as its made out to be. The grammar is a bit harder, but as with any language, you more or less just get used to it as you speak it.
If you can find a manga you like, reading is always a great way into a language (IMO). It may not be the most practical Japanese, but it will get you reading and, with luck, thinking in the language, and that's your foot in the door.
i knew you would be answering that post ! 😋
😉
Some very practical suggestions. I am currently drinking from a fire hose for sure, but I know this phase will pass soon enough. Hopefully I can settle into some sort of a rhythm.
That's kind of the problem these days, eh? We have moved from having almost no resources when we were younger to having an abundance of them. It's tempting to try everything, and indeed many language learners these days never make progress because they are constantly moving from learning resource to learning resource, never allowing time to actually follow one of them. Enjoy the fire hose sampling phase, but hopefully that settling into just one of them will come soon.
By the way I found this gem at YouTube!! :)
😂
It is a big problem! I want to try them all (not). I think I will just settle for basic writing on paper, NHK, and duolingo
Now I’m starting to get motivated, to get back into my handwriting kanji studies..
I was telling brave just above, it is surprisingly therapeutic!
Sipping coffee (or tea — maybe matcha) while studying, is relaxing and satisfying yes.
I'm learning Japanese too. I studied some in college so I have a base. My kids are learning French on Duolingo, and they were asking me to join them so we could have "friend streaks" (basically when users on Duolingo both do a lesson each day, they maintain the "streak"). So I looked at the languages available and picked up Japanese since I've always wanted to get conversational. Streak is at 40 days now, so going well, and I feel the bases are getting quite solid from the repetition.
Main thing keeping me going is the social commitment (with my kids in this case). But I'm also looking for something else, e.g. Japanese movies or videogames that could give me a reason to go a step further.
its so different though, french vs japanese.
Haha yeah... but I'm already fluent in French, so no need for me to learn that one :)
ooooOOOOOOooooh i like that 🤍
You go there a lot if I remember correctly, so that makes sense. I am finding writing characters surprisingly peaceful and therapeutic. These days we rarely write anything, even signatures are digital!
Yes, Duolingo gamification is something everyone talks about. I think that alone is a great motivating factor and worth the cost of the subscription.
O wow good luck! I'm learning French which is pretty hard because my Dutch language is alike English but French is something else entirely, but you have to learn new signs / letters as well, respect!
Not just a few letters, I am told at least 2000 of them! That is why it will take me 6 years!
so much courage and will 🙏🏻
i have a hard time to keep up with 3 simple languages FRENCH SPANISH ENGLISH
wanting to learn JAPANESE is really impressive unless you live in Japan, then its easier.
Let's check back in a month or so if I am still motivated. It is easy to start but hard to continue!
Rest days work for language learning as for exercise, memory consolidation happens during rest.
well yeah :)
I hope I can pull it for years!
I started to try and learn Mandarin a while ago (like decades ago), but I never got very far with it. I took Spanish in school and while I can pick out a few words here and there, I can't really speak it. I think the fact that you are trying to learn to write as well is impressive. I wonder if it wouldn't feel as overwhelming if you were just trying to learn to speak it. I can see how reading it would help with signs while you are traveling...
It is very similar with a lot of people. It is difficult to pick up a new language as an adult.
I would imagine!
It's funny (and interesting) to know that "big" profiles like yours are not native English speakers, in this case. I don't know, I think we've created a stereotype that all big profiles come from those countries (how silly).
And yes, Japanese is very difficult and complex, it's a fascinating language, I really want to learn it too, I haven't had the time to start studying it yet, but I've dedicated myself a lot in recent years to learning German, even though these apps are very limited and end up tiring us out, I can say that I've learned at least a small portion of words. I still want to study Russian and Japanese, Chinese, and who knows what else. I'm Brazilian, and despite the proximity of the Latin language (Spanish), I'm too lazy and uninterested in studying Spanish. I don't identify with it that much.