One of the things that is great on Hive, is how much data there is on an account. One of the things that sucks, is that it isn't very accessible for most people, and is quite laboursome to get. So just like in real life, perceptions, habits, observations and rules of thumbs get used, rather than using all the data available. And also, just like in real life, everyone is an individual and no matter the behaviour, everyone thinks that they have a good reason to be an exception to the rule.
You may have noticed the "KE ratio" next to your name in Peakd.
Love or hate it, it is just a little bit of objective data based on a single account to give an indication as to some Hive behaviour. All it tells is the amount of HIVE POWER held in relation to HIVE POWER earned, using a very simple calculation;
KE = (Author Rewards + Curation Rewards)/Held HP
This gives a number, where someone who holds all the HIVE power they have earned as an author and all the curation they have earned as a voter, will have a KE of precisely 1. If someone (like me) holds less than I have earned, it will be a number greater than 1, and if I held more than I earned, it would be less than 1.
Example of even:
Author rewards 100 + Curation 50 / Held HP 150
150 / 150 = KE 1
Example of more HP:
Author rewards 100 + Curation 50 / Held HP 300
150 / 300 = KE 0.5
Example of less HP:
Author rewards 100 + Curation 50 / Held HP 50
150 / 50 = KE 3
What is my KE?
Good question, and while you can check it from your profile page in Peakd, you can also check it through this app created especially for it a few months ago, as well as a few other metrics there too.
https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/
As said though, this is a "heuristic" and doesn't tell the full story of an account, as it doesn't factor in a whole lot of other data, nor a whole lot of information that isn't held on the blockchain. For instance, a person might have multiple accounts and one holds HP for others. It doesn't factor in liquid Hive. It doesn't speak to the value added by the account in other ways either. Nor does it represent what the HIVE has been used for. But, as a general indicator, it is enough for me to look further if I think that the ratio is abusive.
An abusive ratio?
Ultimately, I want people to have a good time on Hive and get value from it. But at the same time, I want people to invest themselves into Hive and build their financial position here so they can support others on the platform also. Personally, I don't want to support people who are extracting too much of what they get from the platform, milking value that could go to others who will keep more of it here and who would help others.
"Abusive" is subjective.
This means, just like where I vote or downvote, what I see as better and worse behaviour is personal and up to me. You might agree at times, you might disagree at times, and that is okay. But, just like everyone can do what they want with their earned HIVE, I can do what I want with my stake, and my opinion. There are times I have taken lots of HIVE off platform, and there are times like recently where I brought a lot back on. This means my KE will fluctuate. There are times where I understand people need some additional funds, there are times I am less understanding, which tends to be when they take everything or nearly everything out. This has been a pretty consistent view over the years for me.
Why I like the KE information.
It is just information. But, it gives me a rule of thumb indicator that I can quickly see if a particular account that is posting, or commenting is someone I want to support, or not. If their KE ratio is low or below 1, it is more likely they will keep their earnings here on platform. It is high, than it raises a red flag and I can choose to dig deeper to see if I want to support, but more likely, I will just skip voting altogether if it is that bad.
Author rewards 10000 + Curation 100 / Held HP 50
10100 / 50 = KE 202
Do I want to support them?
Ideally, I would see the KE ratio next to their name wherever it appears, so then I would see it clearly on their post or on their comment, without having to spend time visiting their profile at all. But @asgarth said it might be a little bloaty, so on the profile page is fine for now.
Did you check your KE?
https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/
If it is low, well done. If it is high, it is easy to fix - powerup more HIVE. But ultimately, I hope people look at whatever number you have and reflect on it a little bit and decide whether it represents how you value Hive as a platform and community. Maybe you have a stack of HP on another account and you are quite happy with it as is. Or maybe you just don't care what others think and you are looking to get all you can while you can and are happy as is. But, now that it is visible to others too -
are you satisfied, or do you feel a bit embarrassed?
That might tell something.
Because life is complicated and people are complex, we all go through it making generalisations about others, making judgements, and through experience, making rules on how we see the world, and how we move through it. Most of our heuristics have very little data to back them up, yet we apply them daily.
We all judge others.
You might like the ratio, you might hate it - but you needn't use it at all. It is just a piece of data pulled from the blockchain and made visible. You needn't judge others on it, you need care about your own. But similarly, other people might care about it, and they might change their behaviours based on the information that was always there on the blockchain, but not visible to them until now. And, there are heaps of numbers that could be pulled to infer all kinds of information and behaviour, and I hope more people and interfaces will explore what is possible to make Hive a more interesting and engaging place to be for most people.
What do you think of the KE ratio?
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
Be part of the Hive discussion.
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Something new to investigate :D hmm..I'm tootling along alright I suppose lol. It's good to know!
You tootle well.
100% vote for your tootling prowess.
lolol...'tootling prowess'....still giggling over this one... and thank you
😉
Doing well, tootles.
Other than one lunatic ranting, I don't see any negative response so far.
I have thought about downvoting that account, but her KE is in fact good :)
I thought there would be more opposition, maybe I am speaking too soon?
Not worth downvoting crazies for being crazy.
Agree. But I still have itchy fingers. What value that lunatic is bringing to hive? Anyways not important
For sure. They are a great candidate to head over to Blurt.
Let's see if it survives, that rantings of one person it seems can change things. I find it very useful.
They can rant all they want - if it changes because of them, that says something too :)
The thread in in the peakd discord last night, you have a lot more patience than me.. @meesterboom.., I got bored with the child eating after five minutes.
There will likely be more posts about KE today, I just got out of bed and haven't had a chance to look around yet.
Some people are nutso.
That person is...well, I think the behaviours clearly show what.
I am not going to tag her as all that stuff on discord last night will be stuck on @tarazkp's post too. She can't half waffle, I tell ye!
Yeah, no point exacerbating the situation but yeah, waffle for sure...mostly nuts too.
Oh It's a great addition, so much easier to see who is no longer getting my vote, I mean I had that pretty much sorted already but having it there is FAB!
It makes it heaps easier. It is not the only metric I think about, but it is an early warning system to pay more attention.
I remembered that I was pretty close to 1, so I didn't think I had probably moved that much. I put in a suggestion that they color code it so you can kind of get an idea of what is good and what is bad. Something simple like green, orange, red or something like that.
Some are not liking this at all, and colours will likely exasperate this. May was well as those emo's that @beaker007 uses too!
Yeah wanted keep it a bit fresh/fun/light instead of the colors so i used a emoji 😍😎😖😱
There always more to the story then only the number... Nice to see that peakd has integrated the metrics into the profile page, imho just a useful indicator to watch more closely.
Yeah, I can understand that. It's funny though, the ones that are the loudest about it seem to be the biggest abusers.
Yep, I like this idea. Something that stands out a little.
It's too early in the morning (I feel like the dyscalculia is getting increasingly worse the older I get and all the practice on Duolingo and in daily life and the amount I have to do when 3d-ing doesn't seem to be mitigating it, oh well at least I can still animate even if it takes longer to count frames as doing graphs was mostly visual for me anyway) so despite your ELI5 attempts I still have no idea what it's supposed to show XD Though all I got out from it is that lower is better so I think I'm good? Aaahhh XD
Well now I have a shiny new number to be even more of a judgemental sod about, I wouldn't have noticed it til much later otherwise :)
and I would have been so very clueless about it as opposed to only slightly clueless
It must be too early in the morning for me too - because when I first read this, something about vampires came to mind!
Yes! That is the gist of it. Under 1 and the person has powered up more than they have earned. So judge away!
I want to know how you got to vampires! :D
Under 1 good is easy for my meagre brain to comprehend XD
I checked my KE, it's 11.81. I need to buy 350 HIVE and then I won't be in debt to Hive. Although I have 500 HIVE worth of tier 2 tokens, some SPS and tens of thousands of HBD, maybe I haven't done that much damage to the Hive ecosystem :)
Hmm, that's high.
What about good? :D
It's really good to chat here.
do you add a lot of value for others too? :)
Yes. They don't feel alone on Hive. Sometimes a person will only have one comment from me under their post.
I think the KE ratio is nice and simple information. I was VERY surprised to see my KE ratio was even over 1.25 but I guess I must have been liquidating all of my meager earned rewards for the first 2 years I was a reply guy.
Once I really invested the time to write my own content (through actifit and splinterlands curation), I stopped selling off my HIVE to build my stack of HBD. I've been consistently keeping my HBD stack reinvested in savings for the past 1.5 years!
I wish more SL players would realise how valuable it is for Splinterlands to participate in the content pool on Hive. SL should have its own "community" interface that really drives content creation, fans and player development. And on Hive, that is also a rewarded community, to add another splinter to the game.
They do a decent job getting content through their weekly curation contests. I think you can get two upvotes each week if you post on theme, and if you're a popular account life aftersound or thepeoplesguild then they auto curate everything you post.
I like it and I changed my curation behavior based on it (but now it takes less time than check the accout with https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/)
Yeah, it makes it a little simpler at least. Baby steps. One day, there might be a selectable suite of data to make all kinds of things easier.
I think it's a great indicator, as you say. But I've also seen that mods in Splinterlands use it as a fix sentence. It was supposed to be used as you write, to look further if someone has a "bad" KE ratio, but if that person used the HIVE to buy Splinterlands assets, it should be okay as it somewhat stays in the ecosystem. But that didn't always happen. But I hope they talked to the mods :-)
Besides that, I like that it's now displayed directly. That'll help me understand quickly what I might be dealing with, and support accordingly.
I decided to manage a 50/50 payout, and power up 25% of the converted HBD, while using the rest for SPL. Worked out great so far, I'm right where I should be, at around KE 1.65.
To some degree it is okay. Yet, Splinterlands players have a pretty bad track record of supporting Hive itself - even though Hive (originally Steem) was a massive part of their success and keeps the transactions on Splinterlands completely free. This is why when Splinterlands wanted funding from the Hive DAO, it took some convincing. If SL players had powered up a bit over the last 7 years, especially at the SL highs, funding would have been simple.
And know where to look :)
Sounds about right :)
Oh, thank you for that info! I didn't realize that part, I thought that it was more the other way around. They're not one, but need to support each other. I'll take that into account, thank you!
KE ratio is a simple way to get a general overview of how people support Hive. It's much faster than what I used to do, which is to check the wallet on Peakd and sort by "power up/power down." Since my KE ratio is at 0.51 I like the stat, but if it was higher and considered "abusive" of course I wouldn't like it as much.
It is like washing clothes by hand compared to with a machine. It still sucks with the machine, but is better!
Well said! 😆
I believe that if the vote distribution can be more equal than ever, HIVE might be more stronger in terms of each account and the whole community. A post less than 50 words shouldn't be rewardad $10.
By the way, my KE raito is 1.02 😉
It could be a pretty fantastic 50 words.
Yes, but the distribution has to be organic in the sense that the stake is bought or earned with effort. If it isn't, they will just sell once they get it anyway.
Not really fantastic, believe me :)
My KI is 0.25 because I have invested way more out of pocket than I have earned on Hive. My other accounts also have KE under 1. I expect it to go up as I start converting my HP into HBD Savings and my earned HIVE increases with time. I have one account with 0 KE as it has never posted anything. I only use it for HBD Savings. All this to say that you're right. It's an interesting number, but it doesn't tell you the whole story.
There are lots of interesting numbers on Hive, and I wish I had the skills to play with more of them :)
Are you already converting, or will you wait for price increase on Hive?
I’ve been averaging out of HP into HBD savings with 100 HIVE power downs. I’ll stop when my HBD value equals my HP value. Then I’ll rebalance as I earn, which shouldn’t be too often as rewards are paid equally in both. The equal weight HIVE/HBD is a simple heuristic. If someday HIVE drops below my savings, I’ll have to switch rewards to 100% HP or buy more HIVE out of pocket, depending on the severity. I only want HBD savings to go up, never down.
This is a good strategy too, but remember that the APR on HBD is dictated by the witnesses and can change if it gets too imbalanced.
Yes, I recall at least once when Hive stopped paying HBD rewards, probably when the price was around $0.12 or so. I vaguely remember a blog post discussing how interest rates aren't affected by the haircut rule (currently coded at 30%), only rewards issuance. But if HIVE is dumping again, I'd have to buy more.
There is certainly the risk of the witnesses lowering the interest rate. We don't know how savers would react as prior to having any interest we had none. Going down from 20% to 15% was disappointing, but it at least keeps up with the unofficial speculated inflation rate of about 7%. Would poor interest/no interest cause people convert HBD to HIVE? 🤷 We can only guess.
For me, even if it paid 0% interest, HBD Savings would serve me as a simple heuristic for locking in gains. If HIVE underperforms my HBD Savings, I'll buy more. If HIVE outperforms, I'll scrape off the excess into HBD Savings to maintain the 50/50 ratio.
I still have a ways to go to balance my HIVE/HBD for any useful conclusions.
It's a modified version of https://ecency.com/hive-167922/@travelwritemoney/core-number-compounding-with-hive
Thank you for explaining it in detail, this is the topic of the day 😅 It is also good to know the opinion of an influential person in the community like you. Happy start of the week Taraz! ✌️
Did you check your own ratio too? It is not too bad :)
Yes, I have seen mine and those of several friends and I find it interesting ✌️
What is your impression when seeing the numbers for friends?
It's complicated 😅 and in fact something sad...
There are few of us Venezuelans who make an effort to maintain HP, but at the same time I see that a lot of work is being done here for the benefit of Hive. Most of my friendships with community leaders and curators, but there is the economic reality of my country as an important cause of their KE numbers. The other part of my friendships are from Europe or USA and wow they keep in a very good range.
Maybe that's why I found it interesting, I was surprised that they had a very high KE over 1, but they are people who work hard and I have years watching them grow....
I have tried to keep mine to offer something more, and also with the goal of being able to have my own apartment in the long term (or to emigrate when this is unsustainable for me) 😖
It is for many.
A lot of people use Hive to fund their life, which I understand completely when things are really hard. But at the same time, I also think that they are selling their future too. It means that they won't have anything for later to support themselves and others. Eventually, the Hive tap will close, and they will be in the same position they were in when they started. Whereas someone like you who has been adding some to support others, will also be able to support yourself a bit too - it is an investment.
My question is, if they didn't have access to Hive, what would they do instead? Hive is an extra that they didn't have access to earlier, but instead of seeing it as an extra to use to invest into themselves and their community, they tend to extract nearly all.
You are absolutely right, maybe this will help a little to change the mentality of many, at least I hope so. Thanks for this feedback bro, you have written important things here that many don't want to see...
I'm already using it to quickly scope out accounts and have found that accounts I stopped supporting because they staked too little often still have a very high KE. I consider more than just this co-efficient though, such as what accounts they delegate to, and whether or not they have been in dire circumstances but are still publishing good content.
I like it. It's not the end-all-be-all, but should come in handy. Mine is 1.09.
Yes - it is a quick and dirty "red flag" system - but it is useful to raise that flag. And who knows, perhaps when more people dig deeper, they find out positive information about other accounts too.
I've been working on my HP since last year but learning about KE ratio has just motivated me to power up more to improve it. My KE was still quite high but hoping that I could drop it below 3 in the next few weeks.
It doesn't take that long to improve, just convert and power up the HBD at a little higher rate and the gap closes.
Just added 200 hive earlier to get me on flat 3 score. Will follow it through with my daily power up routine.
Score!
My KE ratio is pretty spectacular, but that's mainly because I traded an my
STEEMfor HIVE as fast as I could power down on the other chain after the fork. I also traded some HBD for Hive at favorable rates.It doesn't prove I'm a good guy, it's just another number to help suggest what my behavior has been over the years.
Remember some of those crazy times where HBD spiked to 8 dollars?
And this is what I think is important. When people have very high reps, earning well, and still have a very shitty KE - it does tell something or at least, is worth looking deeper into.
Right. And I know plenty of users whose crypto here was a lifeline during hard times, so a low KE isn't necessarily a sign of a bad actor. Low KE + high post count and signs of real engagement = not a problem
Yes, it is an indicator only, but not the whole truth. There are days in Finland where I look outside at the sun and get the feeling of Australia, where it just looks hot. But it is 20 below zero. Seeing the sun is an indicator, but it doesn't tell the temperature! :D
As a former Minnesotan, I know exactly what you mean. We may have been a lot further south than Finland, but Canada generously shared its arctic air with the upper Midwest, and I've experienced that strange point at -40 where the C and F thermometers agree, and then there's the wind-chill factor on top of that. But the sun might be blazing in the sky in spite of failing to heat anything appreciably.
I have come close, but not quite made it to the intersection - -36C is the coldest I have experienced - which is warm in comparison to you ;D
OMG! I love this new addition on PeakD! Mine is under 1 which means I put in more into Hive than I have received in author and curations rewards:
I wonder if it is affected because you 100% powerup too?
If you do 100% powerup and don't take out anything you will get KE of 1. I have actually sold some crypto and bought Hive and powered up so my KE is below 1. Additionally I am receiving just under 5 Hive tokens per day as a witness which I also powerup so my KE keeps slowly dropping...
Yes, but you will get one if you do 50/50 and spend all the HBD too. So I wonder if the 100% power up skews the results somehow, where it looks like you are earning more HP for the same payouts... if that makes sense.
I like the KE ratio, but I'm probably biased because mine's reasonable right now.
A slight concern I have is that because it's simple (which is good - simple=easy to understand) it doesn't reflect transactions that keep funds within Hive (which is what we're really trying to measure) but still reduce the KE ratio with the current formula. For example, if I power down a big chunk of HP to HIVE then use it to buy HBD, I'm not reducing the market cap of the ecosystem as a whole, but it would still trash my KE ratio. Not that I'm buying much HBD until the HIVE price improves, but my long term goal is to be earning enough monthly HBD interest that I can take a basic income out of it without touching the capital.
Overall though, I like the idea of metrics that show which Hivers are really helping to keep Hive's market cap up.
Yeah, it doesn't factor in a lot of things, but it does give a simple snapshot that can be investigated easily. The HBD thing is actually interesting, because I think that it creates additional debt in the sense that HBD is an "IOU" in some way, isn't it?
Yeah, I must admit I've never quite understood the intricacies of HBD and the relationship to the ninja mine that gradually absorbs the notional pre-existing value when Hive forked from Steem. I guess it's a debt in the sense that as a stablecoin it's a commitment to pay out a fixed amount when withdrawn. But I also see it as part of the overall market cap for HBD that people actually buy it, and it's better to see powerdowns go to HBD than pulled out and converted to fiat.
This gives a look at it. The actual supply of Hive, and then if all HBD was converted to Hive at current feed price of Hive. So if Hive was right now worth $1 equivalent, there would be about 510 million Hive in the total. The more HBD, the more debt, which is why if price dropped a huge amount, the haircut would take affect. Not sure how that would affect the HBD APR...
Thanks For Sharing Valuable content
Your comment isn't.
And this was the first comment on this post :D
I like to affectionately refer to people who comment like as, cunts.
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STOPI think this is a good indicator. It doesn't tell you everything about a user, but at least it gives you an idea. After all, someone with a KE of 20 doesn't seem to value Hive very much. Of course, there may be a logical explanation for this. Maybe he needs money for a moment and then he gradually power up and fixes the situation.
I think KE can remain visible in profiles. It would be tiring to search for everyone's username on a website. But it can also create a kind of prejudice. If you see that someone who you normally think is a good Hive user has 10 KEs, it will change your opinion of them. Let's see more opinion about that
I think it is a great idea. As you state, the key is using it as a tool and one factor to consider. I would also like to see it more visible in other areas. The legacy reputation number has had it's time and due to be replaced with this or similar evolution of it.
I love to support new users to the platform, what I don't like is those that just milk everything out. What they may come to understand over time is that the short term monetary gain is far less than they could earn if they reinvest in the platform by powering up and helping to promote and grow the platform instead of just grabbing their "milk" to go and running off with their short amounts.
I'm not saying that all need to re-invest everything, but it would be nice to see at least a balanced approach. I've stopped voting for many that I consider "milkers" and remove them from my follow.
Voting is a choice and folks are likely to garner more support and votes by supporting the platform in their powerups.
Thank you so so much for explaining this, I have been all over the place looking for a good explanation for KE. I woke up seeing mine at 1:43 and I was worried. When I saw a lot of people with higher numbers I also wanted to get those numbers not knowing it was the opposite😂😂
Now I feel relief, thank you again🙏
I am proud member of this club. I am glad that I was not forced to eat up my Hive/ HBD reserves yet. Also I feel sad that some people cash out all they rewards.
The way I see it those people are given not just fishing lessons but also a ship and fishing tools but they throw it all away. Sure life hits hard and I don't know their circumstances. But at the same time I am sure that many users were not forced to use their stake as well...
Since it's only on the profile page I guess it's not so bad really, from a confusing the user standpoint.
With the way society is moving to more brain dead content consumption websites or social sites with any degree of complexity will die off as society becomes incapable of actually learning to use anymore more than a scroll feed that feeds you brainrot.
We'll forever be relegated to being a haven for the knowledgeable, those who can actually think for themselves and actively learn and discover and as a result be a small userbase for the foreseeable future.
I'm a hive witness supporting the blockchain please consider voting for me! - Find out more here!
Great to see peakd has integrated the ratio into the profile page👏..
It's a bit of a mixed bag, depending on your perspective. All in all, I'd call it a positive indicator, if used in conjunction with someone's rep number and the age of the account.
Viewed through a different lens of perception, the KE ratio might also tell us who's poor and struggling financially, and who's well off and financially stable.
Consider many of the people in certain parts of SE Asia, South America and Africa who are materially dependent on their Hive rewards to even eat and function in daily life. We've (on occasion) patted ourselves on the back for offering something of value to these "unbanked" groups... but are they now suddenly going to be "personae non-grata" because they actually use Hive as part of eeking out a meager living?
Human beings judge. It's in our nature, alas. Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind about the KE ratio is to understand exactly what it's telling us... and what it's not.
Now I shall remove my Devil's Advocate cap and crawl back into my hole!
=^..^=
So thats what the K.E beside's the account name is all about . I though my 0.12 KE is very low it turns out it is ok.
This is new for me, although I've returned to the HIVE community recently, I think I'll focus on investing my earnings in Layer-2, such as LEO, EDS and other financial tokens. Does that make me sound a bit more like a profiteer, I guess? No
I think too many people will jump to conclusions about the KE coefficient without thinking about the so many benign uses of the stake (still on Hive) that could lead to a high(er) KE. To kind of avoid people jumping to conclusions, I decided to change my profile description to point them in the right direction. Since they are displayed close to each other, hopefully people will see both and be better informed than by using the KE alone as a baseline.
Yeah, your KE is high.
That is because I used (and probably will again) power down my posting account and stake it to my staking account (@gadrian-sp). That is without counting whatever went into Hive-Engine (although I probably got more HIVE out of it than put into).