Hive community is getting mad at @cryptofinally but she's right about this one

in #hive2 years ago (edited)

Not having any blocking features is bad UX for social media. And too much stake in one user's hands subverts decentralization.

No one is free from criticism, but commenting on people's posts with spam, hate, and cuss flags it as NSFW on search engines and restricts who can enjoy the posts. It puts all the power in the harassers hands. People should be able to cultivate their presence on their own profile page.

Front-end fix: @PeakD, @Hiveio blog, etc should add blocking features so harassers can't see their target's posts. This is more than just muting, which is currently supported but only hides the harassers' posts from the target.

This is not censorship. You would still be able to post whatever you want to the blockchain. If you really want, you can always go ahead and create a 4chan on Hive where Hivers can repeatedly call each other ignorant cunts and crybaby bitches and whatever exceptional things they inner little consciouses desire. But for mainstream adoption, the main platforms need to understand and implement what makes social media platforms successful.

Or let Hive.blog, PeakD and the like be the 4chans and someone else will come along and make a new front-end on top of Hive that will overtake all the others because it better understands this dynamic.

Long-term fix: get better #Hive stakeholders. One account having enough stake to single-handedly change the direction of an entire post is an issue. As a lead at a company that uses a consensus mechanism similar to proof-of-stake, I know the precautions needed to keep this model from centralizing. In a DPoS model, too much stake in one person's hand can damage the network. It's not enough to just consider decentralization of consensus for the blockchain layer, but also decentralization of social voting to assign upvotes. With a marketcap so low, any whale can buy up enough stake to ruin the platform for everyone else.

Also apparently people are like actually scared of this anon @xxxxxxxxxx and not commenting on @cryptofinally's post out of fear for being targeted? Yeah no lol $200K stake is not a lot a small VC can cancel this guy out or you can set up a Hive DAO and Hraise enough to cancel out any of this guy's votes.

@xxxxxxxxxx feel free to start downvoting all of my posts. I can make a script you can give your posting key to if you want to automate it.

Hive users, don't be afraid of the bullies.

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This issue has plagued steem and now hive since the beginning. Posting in communiities certainly has its advantages, because owners of the communities have control over people being able to post into it or not. I had to kick someone from one of my communities, which resulted in that person not being able to respond to the posts in that community. Communities I think are the answer.

I think that is a great answer and exactly the kind of solution we should be helping build out.

Everyone has a place on the Hive blockchain as it belongs to everyone. But it's difficult to get everyone to tolerate each other. Communities offer the most flexibility.

I do think that in this situation there existed two main problems: one is that the level of hate amongst a group of influential HIve people had a really negative effect on more people ganging up on Cryptofinally. This is the social aspect that undesirable and downright mean.
The second part of this is that the solutions that we provided about creating one's own community and cultivating that didn't perhaps appeal to her, and she was obviously distressed by the super horrible things people were saying. There was a lack of acknowledgement about how that affects human beings. It is awful what people said, and it's also immature.
I still think that cultivation of a community around a topic is the best way for things like this to be solved, but harassment could still happen within wallet memos, so the harassment issue has not been solved.
But the biggest problem i see that will stunt the growth of Hive is hatred, and hatred that is allowed to multiply and grow between a small group of influential Hivers. I think that is the most disturbing aspect of this entire saga. And that has no solution in sight, because it takes a certain kind of person to observe their own minds, to see that their mind is negatively affecting the ecosystem. And yes, this has negatively affected all of us. Running Cryptofinally off the platform has done nothing positive. It has not improved Hive, and if anything, we now understand how things are in reality on here. There is a lot of hate that multiplies.
I think we can agree on one thing: something is wrong.

maybe we can work on some solutions and learn from this, as this experience will probably repeat itself in the future.

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blocking features so harassers can't see their target's posts.

It's a public blockchain, with a dozen front ends. Stopping anyone from seeing your posts is both impossible and undesirable.

Oh, and, retarded.

should add blocking features so harassers can't see their target's posts.

How would this change anything, you can write your own frontend in 10 minutes and post from there. Or use CLI wallet, RPC calls, any of the programming libraries...

Option to mute is enough to hide any abusive comments, but blocking users from interacting with your content (or leaving comments) is censorship. Every user should decide for themselves if they want to see content from other users (even "abusive") or not.

a small VC can cancel this guy out or you can set up a Hive DAO and Hraise enough to cancel out any of this guy's votes.

You cannot "cancel" anyone, you can only counter their downvotes. Using DAO against users is censorship. Who will decide if someone is abusive?

With a marketcap so low, any whale can buy up enough stake to ruin the platform for everyone else.

I don't see this platform being ruined for everyone else, only one user. It's Bernie's right to downvote any post as it's his right to upvote any post. It's FREE platform, if you want a safe space go back to Twitter and enjoy being censored if you say something wrong.

If you post to Hive, you don't own or deserve any rewards until they are paid out. I personally got downvoted many times (biggest downvote being $-267.017 from one single vote), but I know the risks for "boosting" my posts with bid bots.

tl;dr: If you are afraid of downvotes, don't post on Hive. And don't take downvotes personally.

Good points. Yes by cancelling out I do mean counteracting their vote. At the end of the day, the main solution is to have more good actors outweighing the bad ones.

A DAO only votes on the majority vote of their users. They aim in further decentralization and have been promising thus far in Ethereum.

Banning someone's account is censorship. I don't think blocking someone from the ability to comment on your own posts is necessarily censorship. A third party stopping someone from being able to see someone else's posts definitely is censorship.

It sounds like PeakD's communities are doing this, and I don't see any major backlash against them for deploying a "censoring" solution, so will take a closer look at them.

I have been thinking about this situation as many others have experienced it too. Creating your own community I think is the answer. When you create a Hive Community, you can decide who can post to it. Also, if you mute someone in your community, their comments are by default collapsed. I just tested this out, and the posts from muted accounts don't show up in the Community. As far as downvotes, I am not sure how this works, but since you already have an existing fan base, I highly recommend that you create your own Hive community, with you as the owner. In this way you will have more control over who you want to join it. Communities exist to solve these sorts of problems, and as we know, not everyone is going to get along, anywhere. People can definitely have more control over your experience this way.

Yes communities is probably the best option for control. There is no way to block downvotes, the chain would need to be fundamentally redesigned because spam farmers, plagiarists, etc would just block everyone from downvoting them and that is the antithesis of the whole proof of brain concept. It relies on the public aspect of all stakeholders having a decision in rewards

Yeah I think the only way is to over time encourage more good actors join the platform to positively upvote to reduce the power of of malicious downvoters.

I wouldn't advocate for removing anyone's stake or downvoting abilities.

Now this is the type of steem/hive interaction which drew me to these chains, and has kept me here for years.

proof is in the pudding and i'm late to the dinner table though. Someone ate all my pudding while waiting for me to arrive.

Is this xxxxxxxxx dude Bernie ?

From Steem he was quite a decent lad, I remember even getting some upvotes from him.

yes it is bernie and he is being bernie. sometimes you love him sometimes you really hate him. it is what it is.

Yes it is Bernie. People always say to just ignore him so I never thought much of it. I didn't realize it was a real problem that some people don't post or comment on Hive out of fear of being targeted.

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Calling for everyone to kumbaya is never going to happen! That’s why we have tribes and communities and front ends! If you’ve done enough research you’ll see every social media platform is the same!

Find people you like and hang out with them! You can downvote my hive votes I can still earn tokens if earning was my measure of what I do here!

I say instead of telling the world to change, change yourself it’s a lot easier

This isn’t the first rant like this it will be gone just as quickly as it came! Seen it play out all before

Why would I downvote your posts when you get no rewards and nobody really gives a shit what you say?

Downvotes and free speech are part of this platform. If you don't like it, go back to Twitter or Facebook and see how that works out for you.

P.S. - There are plenty of people that speak out against me, including some of those who disagree with her nonsense. You're a clueless noob, and it shows.

boom bit the bait

What the fuck does that even mean? Crawl back into your cave, pleb. She's not gonna fuck you, you're too old.

I think its pretty clear what he meant lol

The big issue I see with full blocking is all the spammers will just block hive watchers and other abuse teams. Because there's a monetary incentive and due to the way we distribute the rewards pool via upvotes and downvotes this causes a pretty big problem. Not sure what the best answer is but fully blocking people isn't so simple.

Yeah that's true. I'm being told PeakD has a few good experiments going on with communities. Will be good to check out.

See this comment (it's my test account that I muted in Black Lives Matter community): https://peakd.com/hive-186309/@blacklives/re-stellabelle-qdahv7
By default, the comments by this account are muted, and also, this account cannot post within the Black Lives Matter community.
You can still see the comments if you click on it, but it defaults it to being collapsed, so you don't have to do any work or use energy to unsee it. It's quite an effective tool as I did have one troll that I had to mute in there. They became annoyed by the fact that I muted them, and gave up.

Peakd has the features you ask for... Maybe do some more research first

Exactly my point peopel talking out their arses and say they care about hive but don’t know about all the features lol go figure

Thank you Erick! I really appreciate this take, means a lot when people stand up.

Here is my best advice: Start your own Hive community with your fans, with you as the owner. Being the owner of your own Community means you can decide who can interact with your content.

See here's what I don't get...

Why ignore @stellabelle? She has offered you a solution like several times in this thread. Why ignore it? Why not simply acknowledge it.

"Hey thanks, @stellabelle. That might work for me, I'll have to check it out."

"But wait, will all users still be able to see my posts?"

Yes.

"So I'll be able to block malicious users from commenting on my posts?"

Yes. You will @cryptofinally.

"Thanks. I'm going to give it a shot, and if it works, I'll make a post about it."

See, it's not hard to acknowledge the solutions being offered to you.

You're 100% correct and its for reasons like this that communities were created. They allow people to create moderated communities, if they're someone that wants to create a curated space, either to keep discussions in that community on-topic, or to enforce some particular level of censorship without enforcing those censorship rules on the entire platform.

I didn't know communities had that capability, definitely will take a closer look as I think it helps to address my concerns for growth.

BTW, there was also a recently created issue in gitlab related to this topic: https://gitlab.syncad.com/hive/hivemind/-/issues/19

yeah, i just tested this out on a test account. once you mute an account in your community that you own, that account's comments are collapsed by default.

I see that you already created a Hive Community, https://peakd.com/c/hive-161092/created
so why not post in there and also mute accounts that you don't want to interact with....