With due respect, Can you please elaborate why these Knights are downvoting? What do they get? Atleast not money and they make some enemies on the way too. I remember I only downvoted few people in my life based on plagarism and they still hit my profile with downvotes whenever they remember me again or I sponsor my post for 1 day. @ura-soul I have a request to know try to think neutral. If you are making a plateform with your heart and soul and fighting holy knights, please also look into ways you can support them. No one is 100% wrong. Humans are right and wrong together. Give me good reasons of both sides. Covering one side is not neutral.
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First, they get quite a bit of financial gains from these downvotes, as all rewards removed from posts by downvotes are added back to the rewards pool, thus given to the top posts on trending (and their curators - who happen to be the downvoters)
I'm really confused by all this talk of knights and evil and covering sides? What the heck are you talking about?
What he has created is a tool that allows anyone to track downvotes easily - something that most certainly hasn't been easy to find for the last 6 years.
I could be wrong but I don't think that's how it works, as you describe it. The downvote would deduct potential rewards from what was downvoted then disperse them indiscriminately across all posts including posts that had been downvoted, comments including yours as we speak, post with only one upvote nowhere near trending and so on. One cannot direct where the downvoted rewards go after the rewards have been downvoted. It's equally dispersed across the entirety of the platform. It's not directed at specific posts or wallets.
So if someone is out there downvoting away instances of reward farming low effort drivel or asinine behavior, that money goes back to everyone, not just those who downvote. Equal percentage across the board.
Those with largest capacity as upvoters are also the largest downvoters, by default. So the rewards that the largest downvotes return to the pool are highly likely to be redirected toward the largest upvoters - who are also the downvoters in enough cases for this to be relevant.
Sure, those with more stake stand a chance to earn more with their upvotes. Percentage stays the same across the board. Upvotes also affect the balancing act, pulling rewards away from posts with pending potential rewards yet to be paid out.
Like one big spider web. Pressing the vote button, up or down, is like a bug landing on the web. That action sends ripples throughout the entire web, shaking a little bit of dust off here; dust that has to settle anyway and eventually lands, there.
See what I'm sayin?
All the votes affect the outcome for everyone - yes. However, since downvotes are 'free', in the sense that they don't have any cost to the downvoter, they can either be used as intended - to prevent spam/plagiarism/bots - or they can be used to downvote purely to maximise personal gain. This is a huge flaw in the system and yet it has always been hand waived away as being too insignificant to be relevant by whales (who are big downvoters). Marky claimed recently (just before HiveAlive went live) that no-one makes more than 0.1% gains from downvoting - yet HiveAlive has shown that the actual amount is closer to 4%-5%. If you are a whale that is trying to maximise your returns, an extra 5% is surely attractive! This also applies to non whales, but their impact is very small compared to the whale downvotes, in the sense that whale downvotes offer a massively centralised reduction in rewards for whoever is on the receiving end. If you have a quota of downvoting to get through, it's much more efficient to just nuke a few accounts that you invent reasons to justify your actions (to yourself) for.
In simple terms - downvote quotas being set by some here may be the issue.
Maybe just show me the gains. Pick a name from those downvoting and show me the 4-5% gain.
The 4-5% boosts the entire reward pool, which is then paid out on a stake weighted basis. It isn't possible to show exactly how much each whale benefits since we don't know which accounts might be their sockpuppets, churning out content behind the scenes. However, since it is very clear that stakeholders MUST vote in order to protect their investments, however they do that is being boosted by 4-5%.
Well he said he acknowledges the need for downvotes on posts for plagiarism and spam but haven't seen him use his stake to support/downvote blatant posts that do fall under those categories.
Sounds like acknowledging some cases downvotes are warranted but not necessarily contributing to the solution of normalizing downvotes.
@aadamada
With due respect to all parties involved, I wanna ask why none of those people are working on automatic systems to detect image reuse, tag wrong used, auto plagarism checkers, repost checker, and source not given. I will support this if they also help me in my work. Why I must go to people and tell them their post have leo tag without finance involved? Why I tell people splinterlands quest rewards are not equal to LeoFinance finance category? I go to manual to profiles and guide them about image sources? If there is no replacement by bots then I have to protect hive manually as much as I can. If they want transparency then first make bots that will do these basic warning things. I need my answer from @ura-soul about how he is going to help stop this? Why being biased on one topic and completely neglect other? Let's make this alive front-end great by having equal development share about the things that others think we need.
Because nobody has built what you are asking for, some due to a lack of time, other due to lack of resources.
There is no need to ask permission to build these things, one only has to do it, or pay for it to be done.
There was @cheetah but running that costs a lot that it was unsustainable. The sentiment of bot comments being seen as spam and most of the automation enabled requiring funding to run.
There is no doubt we have to move towards automation at some point. Its just a question of how to reduce cost, how to increase hive fund and how to attract more investors. In short: I still believe we can't neglect this problem at hand and should figure out new ways to solve it.
If I were the lead designer of Hive I would look at integrating some automation of this stuff at the blockchain level, completely removing the involvement of any black-box and non opaque bots and software/groups. I don't currently have the ability to affect such things because I am not a top 20 witness - but the more people that support my witness, the more I can do in that regard.
It will take more then that. To get the support
This kind of work requires constant ongoing maintenance and improvement in order to run and create. The costs are relatively high and I do not have the resources available to cover them. If I were not being downvoted to zero, I would actually have the funds to start thinking about running such apps. The top 20 witnesses receive hundreds of thousands of dollars per year just from being a witness - setting aside their other projects. They also have a large say over what gets funded and doesn't get funded in the worker proposal pool. I suggest starting by asking them your question directly, since they are much better placed to help you than I am.
Ok 👌 Let's assume that you become a top 20 witness. Remember that if you will have funds in future you will fight Plagiarism as much as you can! Deal?
No problem, without the ability for people to demonstrate true uniqueness, proof of brain really falls apart.
There is already a vast amount of stake invested in fighting spam and plagiarism, my stake is better used to support content creators who seek to make use of Hive's censorship resistance to publish information that can help society and individuals to overcome the onslaught of mind control and manipulation constantly spewing from the highly centralised oligarchic corporatocracy.. among others.
You get 2.5 votes a day to be a member of the anti-abuse duty followers, it costs you nothing, but, so far, you have chosen to not play the part of the heavy.
Very few of us want to spend our days exposing, and expunging, liars, for less than nothing, but that is what has to happen for your stake to have value.
Just watch what happens to them other chains, eh?
They don't want to be the heavies, either.
We have the opportunity to be a fount of abundance, probably should support that, iyam.
Even if it means being mean to some people who can't color within the lines.
Games have rules, or there is no game, only a struggle for survival.
Currently, I think, you are on the wrong side of this.
Though I agree we will make more friends with honey than vinegar.
Come on over to the dark side and help keep the conversation on the tracks?
I think you might change your opinion once you have seen what is there.
The rewards made available via delegation to the numerous groups fighting plagiarism and spam make them massively more able to do so than I am able to match. My time is better spent achieving the goals I have set out to achieve with Hive and I don't have a problem leaving plagiarism combat to those who are rewarded for doing so - however, there are issues that need to be addressed in that scenario which I am helping to address here. My stake is not really big enough to make much of a downvote dent, but if a curation group is setup that shares my values then I might consider joining their downvote trail. That being said, as with all trails - I would never recommend anyone to join a trail without regularly checking on what it does.
I personally suspect that reducing free downvotes to 1 per day might be enough to bring greater balance - but ultimately, if people are going to 'abuse' downvoting, similarly to how people 'abuse upvoting' and they refuse to stop voluntarily then without a hardfork of some kind or everyone moving to layer 2, it may be necessary to set up counter downvote trails.. This would be highly inefficient, but that is part of the problem - the 'pool protection' is highly inefficient and open to biases at this point - systemic design changes are massively more effective when done right. Doing the systemic redesign effectively, requires significant amounts of experimentation, which is another reason why low cost layer 2 projects are essential.
Here is one.
Here is one with more people in it.
Great, that is what most folks in these rooms are doing now.
Got that covered, too.
These are all long term initiatives made possible by people who care.
I look forward to you joining the conversations.
You will find like minded people there, several think layer 1 rewards need to go.
I don't share that opinion.
I think we need to adjust the crowd to the rules, and not the rules to the crowd.
It's a life long affliction.
Thanks, yes, I am due to work on @freezepeach's code at some point to improve it's functionality. They need as much help as the community can give. I will try to find time to engage with the groups you linked, but I have needed to clone myself to get everything done, going back 20 years.. so have limited time!
Yeah, I have a hard time finding time to keep up with what all is happening, too.
Thanks for chipping in what you can.
We need more perspectives, imo.
Hi,
Well, Knights tend to be appointed by some made up claim to divinity etc. lol. The major downvoters here have accumulated Hive Stake through high witness rewards over time, bidbot usage and perhaps the success of Splinterlands - among other things. So I wouldn't personally use the word 'Knight', but setting that aside... You would need to ask the downvoters why they are downvoting - but in my own case, I have not been able to get much of an answer beyond 'we disagree with you being paid rewards'.
As was explained in the post and by Kenny - downvoting returns rewards that had been designated to be paid out to certain posts, via community upvoting, back to the reward pool. This means that the reward pool is now larger than it would have been without the downvotes. Currently between 4% and 5% of the rewards that go towards paying for EVERYONE's rewards have been made available as a result of downvoting. Since Hive's capacity to issue (or downvote) rewards is based on the Hive Power that accounts have staked, those who have the most power to downvote also have the most power to upvote and direct rewards to themselves, their friends/colleagues and also sockpuppet accounts which they run to make it seem as if they aren't abusing the reward pool. This means that the bigger the downvote, the more that those doing the downvoting directly benefit financially from the downvote.
Other than that, if you look through the lists of which posts are being downvoted most often - you will see that outside of the accounts/posts which can objectively be said to be scamming and plagiarising, there is a thread of other content creators being constantly downvoted heavily. In general, these are accounts which provide political/social commentary that is anti the mainstream narrative being spun by MSM and gov via 'accredited' 'scientists' (typically heavily financially incentivised to slant their statements in a particular direction). This has mostly begun post COVID19 as far as I recall. We would need to have direct comments from the downvoters as to their thinking here - but we have seen zero from any of them in this regard. The most that I have seen is snearing, snarky comments that seem to rely on the logical fallacy of appeal to authority (and a variety of others too).
Any loss of respect and 'friendship' (from people they mostly never meet via the internet) is minimal in comparison to the gains made in profits and other agenda goals that can easily be identified from comment threads on chain (at least is 'minimal' from the perspective of certain personality types).
Yes, this is one of the main reasons why the vast majority of downvoting (value) is coming only from a very small number of large whale accounts - they aren't concerned about being counter downvoted because they can intimidate most people. Some of these people went from running bidbots that ruined the network previously and which actually led to the development of the current system of free downvotes. Did they decide to just shift away from one sociopathic behaviour to another? I am not a qualified psychologist so clearly I can't appeal to my own authority here - but by all means, analyse and think through the situation for yourself.
I have provided a neutral platform that provides insight into the blockchain data in an unedited way. Anyone doing legitimate curation without biases or political agendas can benefit from it's use.
This is a big subject and will take hours of text to cover in detail, I have already written blogs on this but will write more as time permits.
@ura-soul verifyyourbrain don't have downvotes but still it can stop farming. Let's see how no downvote heaven results will be. If it will only decrease and decrease in value then you will notice the need of holy knights. With time and neutral research maybe you will be able to understand the value of downvotes.
The outcome of a 'no downvote' policy is determined by the willingness of people to participate in it, combined with the quality of the admin team's work and perceptions. If they do everything that's necessary to maintain ethics and to protect the rewards pool in an biased way then it can succeed imo. By having a clear moderation policy, there is at least a chance that the result will be better then existing solutions - but, yes, it's all being run by humans at the end of the day - so it's all possible! ;)