To @hivewatcher
That's not it at all @hivewatcher.
I think that, Yes, we do need measures in place for keeping scam behavior off our blockchain. This is how we maintain our brand and the integrity of this asset we are building... However! We need to do this in a way that also maintains the stability and friendliness of our communities.
The goal is right.
Keep scamming activities to an absolute minimum on the blockchain...
But I think, and with growing consensus from many others, that HOW we go about securing the blockchain's integrity matters just as much.
The methods we implement have also got to maintain the friendliness we have all worked so hard to create within our growing brand culture. To not consider this within our policies and practices is to undermine the hard work many of us are doing inviting people far and wide (Big and Small accounts) to do their social and community building on the Hive Blockchain.
Being the police, the judge, and the jury isn't the right approach to creating the stability we need to continue to grow in a sustainable way.
What I would be interested in is:
What, specifically, your response is in regards to @regenerette's counters to your accusations.
What do you have to say about her response? ...and will you concede to allowing the community to be the jury in deciding if you are indeed leveling legitimate acquisitions and labels?
In addition to this... You haven't answered or given me a decent response as to the method improvements that we could implement. What do you think about the ideas I tabled for improving the processes around identifying and dealing with plagiarism and such activities?
What I see is that @regenerette has done her utmost, as a new person here on Hive, to become a part of our blockchain and community. She is even directly taking the time and effort to counter, publicly, your accusations.
I think you owe her a proper explanation of your actions.
This isn't going away... The environment here on Hive needs to continue to be one that supports new accounts and people putting real effort in.
If @regenerette is indeed telling the truth... what consequences should be leveled against you and your actions and accusations?
Is there room for you to be wrong because I think she's given some pretty solid rational for why the content she originally made use of was also found on another site. (hers!)
I myself have multiple websites with content that I have taken time and even spent money to create. Should I be punished for making use of my own content?
In addition to this... At what point does information gathered from a source translate into plagiarism when it is filtered, colored, utilized, measured, and ultimately dispensed by another?
Does this mean that we are ONLY in the role of making up our own news and discoveries and are NOT able to glean what we may from other people's thought process's and news reals? I mean there's pure and unadulterated information in it's purest sense... but then there is everything else which is most of what we see and read on the internet and books. Learnings stacked upon learnings like a blockchain of discovery! So directly copying word for word... YES! That's something we should never allow unless in small bits and by quoted sources... We all learned this in University 101 didn't we?!
So you can see how this is a very slippery slope and it's could easily turn into something a lot like judging figure skating in the Olympics. Opinions with consequences attached.
We have simply got to take the time to build a proper case before leveling blind accusations and this is why no one person should ever be able to have this amount of sole authority, especially on a platform that prides it's self in being censorship resistant and decentralized.
To add to this insight... this why, in the past, I have made suggestions that we default to software solutions so as to establish a percentage of word comparisons. That way the software it's self can identify the acts of plagiaristic activity and rather than one of us taking on the role of police, judge, and jury we can defer to an automated report that generated to pare with the incident report. Then this report can be voted upon with peoples powered up Hive.
This is the true power of DPoS and we should maximize it at every opportunity.
Another point to be considered:
Let's be honest here... If we are all doing our jobs properly in telling our friends, family members, and famous about Hive we are rapidly going to expand to the point where we have a multitude of new (and excited/exciting) people on our Hive Blockchain.
There is going to be a point (quickly) where it is going to be impossible to police Hive using the methods you have been using... This is only going to spread risk throughout the system and also your going to have gaps and unfriendly outcomes that will compound from them.
The level of thinking that's gotten us to this point will certainly NOT get us to the next level.
If you are right or wrong in your assessment of this situation means little to what needs to be done to improve how we go about dealing with plagiaristic behaviors going forward.
This way of thinking about solving the problem is the equivalent to painting ourselves into a corner.
This is why I am advocating for @regenerette. (And I believe that there are others like her as well... So this has all got to be said.)
I honestly think that she is sincere in her desire to contribute in wholesome ways to our community and blockchain. I don't think that your determination can be the end all be all... and if it is... then this practice isn't sufficient and will need to change, adapt, and improve... If it does not there will certainly be all sorts of consequences for us all.
A Potential Solution For Now
So how about we settle this... once and for all.
@regenerette... Would it be possible for you to prove yourself to the Hive community by first posting some original content to Hive... and then following up right away with the posting of that same content (afterwards) to your original website?
I realize that this feels terrible to not be trusted, to be labeled, to be policed and then judged by one person... But I think that trust is EVERYTHING with regards to the social capital we all earn here on the Hive Blockchain...
Establishing trust and defending it's integrity is worth the effort and if there is a way to do this nothing should be spared in the protection of your identity in this way.
If you do this people (and the right ones!) will rally around you and we will all politely ask @hivewatchers and those consolidated around those ideals to changed their policies, practices and adapt their methodologies to a higher standard here on the Hive Blockchain.
Most people wouldn't fight as hard as you have to stay if wrongly accused... They would simply walk away and begin spreading less than good will to those they are in contact with.
It's time to nip this in the bud and show people another way to combat plagiarism on the Hive platform... a way that's mitigates mistakes and improves the friendly fun we are all having here.
I believe that I can speak the way I have in this comment because I am an honest person, a business owner for many years, and a Hive maximalist investor doing all of the above on our blockchain.
I care a great deal about how things are going on the Hive Blockchain. Not only is this about the future of all our collective efforts... my and everyone's future hangs in the balance with how we all decided to show up and how we all treat our own.
Hive has ABSOLTUELY got to be a friendly place to invite people to... or this place is going to go by the way side... if not rapidly very slowly and painfully.
Decentralized growth means everybody has to act as an owner and step into the gaps that appear. It's our edge but it's also our weak link.
So yes.
Thank you @regenerette for standing up to this way of doing things on the Hive Blockchain. I do believe that how we maintain the security of our blockchain in regards to plagiarism does matter and I believe that you believe this as well.
And because I believe that 2 brains are better than one... I'm also going to tag @apshamilton in this conversation, seeing as he is the legal mind amongst us. As well, he is a Witness and someone who cares about the goings on of this blockchain.
Thank you @apshamilton for taking a look at the particulars of this situation.
NOTE TO ALL:
If you have read to the bottom of this comment it means that you care about the same things I do. I hope that you (my fellow Hive Owners) can weigh in here as I think the way plagiarism is addressed on this platform needs to continue evolving along with the decentralized solutions and censorship resistant structure that we are actively innovating on the Hive Blockchain.
Thank you for reading the entirety of this comment.
Hi @wil.metcalfe. I'm responding to your tag.
This idea that @hivewatchers are some form of centralized police, judge, jury and executioner is simply not correct. They are just another Hive account that has the right to upvote and downvote as they wish.
They don't even have that much HP behind their votes.
They are not a Whale and are barely an Orca (including with delegations).
If people chose to follow their voting trail that's the personal choice of the other account owner (which they presumably based on how good or bad a job they think Hivewatchers is doing).
The Hivewatcher bots that look for and highlight plagarism are not perfect but it just posts a comment alerting other users and it is up to the individual Hive user to review the Hive post and the material the bot thinks its copied from and determine for themselves whether the content deserves an upvote or a downvote or nothing.
This is how Hive works. Large numbers of individual decisions to up or down vote using their HP stake determines the final payout of the post.
Hivewatchers has no special powers or role on Hive. It is just another account that can do what it likes with its HP.
Anyone can create a blacklist and anyone can choose to follow or not follow it.
The Hivewatchers project is supported by the vast majority of the community including major whales, witnesses, and stakeholders. If we stopped receiving support, we would stop the work right away.
@apshamiltion @wil.metcalfe
It's quite peculiar that the attacks/criticism that we get is almost entirely either comes from scammers or those revolving around the @deepdives "community". Self-appointed, fake, wannabe "investigative journalists" who exploit the Hive ecosystem to perpetuate lies and dangerous disinformation such as qAnon, flat earth propaganda, NWO reptilian Illuminati, anti vaxxing, plandemic/5G, climate change denial, far-right extremism, homophobia, racism, etc.
They call themselves investigative journalists while all they do is posting the Karen/Kevin style of nonsense that they read on Facebook.
They do their "own research" (which basically means reading nonsense on Facebook or dubious conspiracy hypothesis articles and pseudoscience content)
Investigative journalism takes months and sometimes many years of work on the case. It applies principles of the scientific method in the investigation. It is scrutinous and almost always requires traveling and on-the-ground research and investigation. It is very detailed, time-consuming, and hardworking,
Deep Dives ridiculous nonsense has nothing to do with Investigative Journalism.
They actually often have no clue what the scientific method is and refuse to apply it, including applying it to their own thought process.
I do not support this statement. We don't need gatekeepers on Hive telling people what to they can post. Downvote if you want but acting as some sort of official entry on Hive is something you are not. While HW has done a lot of good, all of that can be erased by the way you're acting now. I suggest you stick to plagiarism/scams, if you want to get political you'll never get my support ever again.
Bravo!
Thank you for the best comment of the day!
✌ ❤ 🥓
Ditto what @theycallmedan said.
That's what we stick to. Plagiarism.
We have no political agenda.
Those above replies were responses and criticism of Deep Dives was out of personal frustration after a persistent campaign of trolling and spreading of lies about Hivewatchers by a few of its members.
You shouldn't have an opinion on the content posted in Deep Dives. If it's original, that's all you should care about.
I defended @hivewatchers above on the basis that you were just tackling plagarism and spam and its your right to upvote or downvote as you like.
However your response above suggests you have a political agenda that is certainly NOT shared by all major whales, witnesses and stakeholders.
Your DHF Proposal makes no mention of political activity and I and many others would be quite concerned if you were using DHF community funds to push a political agenda. That would be misleading and deceptive conduct.
Please clarify your position to the Hive community.
Is Hivewatchers just about stopping plagarism, spam and actual scams or is it attacking political opinions its operators disagree with?
It's political... MAN!
And the person running the outfit has skeletons in his own closet.
Political agenda?
Yeah right.
And what's that supposed political agenda of Hivewatchers appear to be?
Clearly, you see an agenda and conspiracy in anything that dares to criticize the ridiculous worldview of those hanging around "Deep Dives". No wonder you are in that community.
Hivewatchers ignore this community. There is no point in engaging with the mentally ill. It is better to let them be in their hopeless echo chamber.
-logic
It is not the job of Hivewatchers to criticise the worldview of anybody! Certainly not when it is getting community money from the DHF.
Its stated purpose from the beginning and what it represents to the Hive community in its DHF proposal is that it goes after plagarism (copyright breach), scams (fraud) and spam.
It is supposed to be dealing with content that is actually illegal.
That's it.
The fact that you are personally attacking and labelling me for calling for Hivewatchers to stick to its mandate and not get involved in political agendas shows that there is a problem here.
It is a personal opinion (share with some others). Whole Deep Dives (that you support and hang around) is full of degenerates or mentally ill who were banned on different social media and forums for spreading lies, dangerous misinformation, and instigating to violence and crime. The whole community is full of qAnon shills, neo nazis, far-right extremists, terrorist sympathizers, different authoritarian regime toadies, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, Info Wars shills, Reptilian Illuminati NWO shills, etc.
The Hive ecosystem has been struggling to market itself as a legit and safe place to blog. Deep Dives has been undermining the struggle.
Because of Deep Dives, the Hive is seen as a degenerate magnet.
Anyway, the content of Deep Dives is not Hivewatchers issue. The moral quality of the content moderation is not its scope.
The only exception is when HW acted for moral reasons if when pedophilia was included in the posts.
Failure to respect the opinions of others here on Hive, especially mine on DeepDives, which are informed by educated reading, makes you sound like a misinformation shill.
Stand and deliver!
Sorry @logic, you fail the rationality test. I write for Deep Dives and my opinion is the opposite of HW, and you so you appear to be the problem by your comment above which is abusive and criminal.
ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT
Okay, so your business model is to get paid to identify plagiarism, for example. As far as you discover an original text outside of Hive, i.e. on the web, with a release on Hive as being the same, you are acting. The question is, however, whether your action does not also involve an abuse of the reward pool, since you do not really seem to be interested in clarifying the facts, as this case illustrates well.
If you classify something as plagiarism and consider the original content publisher to have been cheated, then your course of action should be: You contact the presumed originator and point out to him that a publication on Hive seems to match his content from him, ask whether it is his content and whether the release on Hive is wanted or not wanted. You have to wait for the answer.
The fact that in this case - and in all others? - seems to be derived from your business model, since you only seem to act within the Hive sphere.
In fact, this would also be very time-consuming and you could not assume that you would be rewarded for contacting a presumed victim.
So, in principle, it can be assumed that your interest in stopping plagiarism incidents is reduced to this sphere, that you have nothing to do with original authors outside of Hive, and that you are therefore relying on a model that enables you to act as Hive police who are both judge and enforcer.
Personally, I have nothing against setting up a business model that detects plagiarism, it is up to everyone whether they support what you are doing.
But I think it's excessive and self-righteous to act ideologically like so:
Since you presumably use automatic mechanisms to do the work of finding plagiarism for you, you could be accused, as you accuse others, of making your cut with the help of modern technology. Just because you enrich it with questionable ideological speech and make a little more work for yourselves than those who dispense with interaction altogether does not make you better or good people.
I still appreciate that you show your intentions and do not hide them. This makes it transparent for the reader to decide whether to support you or not.
"Since you presumably use automatic mechanisms to do the work of finding plagiarism for you, you could be accused, as you accuse others, of making your cut with the help of modern technology. Just because you enrich it with questionable ideological speech and make a little more work for yourselves than those who dispense with interaction altogether does not make you better or good people."
Please, stop repeating this lie over and over again.
You know very well that all our work is done manually.
There is no efficient automatic tool to find most of the plagiarism-scam.
Cheetah (when we were still able to afford it) was only detecting basic plagiarism in English.
Sure, if you know such an effective automatic tool, then you are welcome to tell us. We would more than happy to use it.
Just don't bring examples of these useless online plagiarism tools that are out there.
P.S. ignoring my other considerations shows that you looked only for the weak point in my response, which it was, I admit.
I don't know you at all. I just checked your recent posts before I commented on you.
You are telling me, all is manually? Fine. I assumed something else. It's a difference between assuming something and telling a blunt lie.
I accuse you of being a criminal!
How bout that?
I agree with you.
This statement is very very concerning. Makes me very worried about the future of @hivewatcher project.
What @apshamilton wrote seems much more correct
HW got personal and started offending my posts on Deep Dive in a comment above, and so they fail in their duty and should be reprimanded for trying to be the thought police.
"Self-appointed, fake, wannabe "investigative journalists" who exploit the Hive ecosystem to perpetuate lies and dangerous disinformation such as qAnon, flat earth propaganda, NWO reptilian Illuminati, anti vaxxing, plandemic/5G, climate change denial, far-right extremism, homophobia, racism, etc."
Sorry dude you fail. Get off your socio-political high horse fool. You are not in a position to censor opinions like those on DeepDives or anywhere on Hive based on your OPINION of what is right or wrong politically or socially. You idiot. You have shown your stupidity in this statement and are unqualified or uninformed to comment on these subjects as if you know better. Your OPINION in yours alone so it's time you grow up and act like an educated adult. We are adults here on Hive buddy. Your style of nonsense does not belong here.
Thanks for having a neat opinion about this, Wil.
i am traveling for recovery until late summer or autumn.
Hivewatchers can check that website just by writing a simple message to contact. Either me or my Canadian partner in this will respond and confirm. I have Said this for months now. That is a website for our crypto business with Wyoming and South Corea. Everything I am posting there is related to our brand. Simply contacting me or Uwe there will confirm that the website and the Content is mine.
This is the last post I make for now. Until I have more time and energy for Hive. Neverteless, I am on Discord daily for anyone who needs me.
I hope things will improve on Hive.
This has always niggled me. The problem with using Bots and Algorithms is they can only work within the parameters set, so for example, if there is not a subroutine that says, "By the way Bot, if you find a match on a similar website, go and find who that author is and if it's the same person then it's not plagiarism." that, of course, presupposes that the individual is using their real name on every website including Hive because a Bot is not going to have the skill set to investigate username ownership.
Every law in the world accepts that you may use and reproduce your own content wholly or in part, and Hive, while it might not like it, should abide by that. Now I can see why Hivers would have the hump with it. It's basically lazy and cheap to earn rewards, especially if the user has a twenty-year-old website that they are harvesting to spew out each day on the blockchain. I think Downvoting is the way forward for that sort of activity. I even think there should be a bot to point out that the work is reproduced so that people like myself who can't be bothered to investigate don't get conned into upvoting.
Nobody should have to parade their qualifications to give authority to what they say. Everyone has a right to an opinion; this is where the world has gone wrong of late. Personally, I blame the Internet. In the good old days, you could go down the pub, talk complete bollocks with authority and everybody generally left good friends at the end of the night because there was no instant access to so-called facts. And what are facts anyway? They are what the majority perceives to be true. Many thought the earth was flat and that that was a fact! 😉 Nowadays, people are not allowed to have an opinion; people will shout them down, bombard them with so-called 'facts', and when all else fails, start calling them fascists or racists (or spammers) because those sorts of labels are show stoppers for lots of people.
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOICE YOUR OPINION!
I come from the FOSS community where 'Freedom' is a solemn thing for us, but we also have another mantra, and that is "The Circle of Trust" I'm not sure CoT would work on Hive mainly because it's tied so heavily to Crypto and where money is involved you're going to attract scum I'm afraid.
In the good old days of mailing lists and forums, we had Moderators. I was never a fan of those either, so I'm always sceptical of people who one day pick up a lump of four-by-two and say, "This is so wonderful I'm gonna protect it!" personally, I see this as a role for Witnesses. However, I'm sure they would argue they're far too busy supporting the blockchain. We need a body of maybe 7 (Has a nice ring to it The 7 🤣) who should monitor what goes on with proper transparency and a robust appeals procedure. This still, of course, does not address the main dilemma: How can you have a decentralised platform based on freedom and then advocate having a panel of enforcers? If I had the answer, I'd be in charge, and you all would have to pay me a stipend. LOL
#TwoPenneth
Enjoy
Absolutely @regenerette! RestUP and recover the best way you can and I hope, like you, that things will be improved by the time you make it back here.
I know that this has been a bit painful... But thank you for being willing to go through this.
I have learned a lot about where Hive currently is in its evolution and where it needs to go.
I believe, 100% in your good intentions... although going forward I would totally advise you to take care in any rewording of articles. Try to brush up on quotations and such as that's going to help you avoid any unnecessary heat going forward.
In the mean time... I, and a growing group of people who care a great deal about Hive and it's future, will continue to do our utmost to bring Hive around.
I believe that if enough of us care and express ourselves about how we can keep Hive a friendly destination... there's nothing we can't do in that regard.
Cheers and have a wonderful vacation at the beach and on your adventures! 🙌
Thank you, Wil. I Shall follow your advice on these aspects.
May you also have strength and lots of success with your plans!
Hugs and have a wonderful summer!