By moving away from a strictly literal only interpretation of the days in Genesis 1 we can start to examine the account for other intricacies.
But first a bit of a summary:
- A strictly literal interpretation of Genesis 1 has deep roots that extend well before the age of enlightenment and the knowledge of the earth we have since uncovered.
- A young earth creation (7 x 24 hours)would require the ignoring of a lot of geological and other evidence.
- An old earth creation (7 x 1000 years or longer) still has challenges regarding the order of the Days of creation in the Genesis 1 account.
- The order and repetition of elements within the Creation account hint rater at a literary structure rather than a detailed literal account.
- The structure is used to elevate and emphasize the 7th day as a day of rest.
- This same literary structure is used elsewhere in the books of Moses and is not unique.
- It is used in the account of the plagues of Egypt to elevate and emphasize the final plague that would institute the Passover and establish the start of the Israelite Calendar.
So lets see what other intricacies we can find when freed from a strictly literal straitjacket.
The account uses some interesting phraseology that literalists ignore:
On days three, five and six the phrases go as follows:
Let the earth bring forth grass
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind
In all these phrases, the very interesting expression "bring forth" is used. In each instance the earth or waters are directed to "bring forth" plants, fish, birds and animals in such a way as to imply that the capacity is in them to do this.
This is not out of line with what we have so far discovered regarding the emergence and differentiation of life on this planet.
This phraseology could easily accommodate the emergence of diversity via natural processes.
This emergence by natural processes is later, in the respective verses, associate with God Creating and Making:
And God created great whales
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind
Hereby we see that the act of "Creating" and "Making" is considered one and the same as the earth and waters naturally "bringing forth" all forms of life.
If we take this further to the other "Let there be" phrases:
Let there be light
Let there be a firmament
Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
Let the earth bring forth grass
Let there be lights in the firmament
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind
Let us make man in our image
If we review these phrases from this perspective it seems that the phraseology can quite easily accommodate the natural and emergent process that have been uncovered by observational and scientific methods.
What we know of biological evolution is the importance of reproduction and inheritance in the process.
Both of these principles are emphasized repeatedly in the account.
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind
Now some may accuse me of trying to sneak evolution in the back door of the creation story, however its my opinion that the creation story seems to have had it in there as a possibility all along and that the creative process may have be a perfectly natural and now more increasingly understood evolutionary process.
There will be others that object in that this seems to contradict the story of Adam and Eve... but we will look into those objections next week.
So my question at this stage is; does the possibility that God may have used completely natural and increasingly understood processes to create the universe, the solar system, this planet and all life on it, make the prospect any less miraculous and glorious?
For me, the more I learn about emergent and evolutionary processes, the more I am filled with Awe at the majesty of this entire enterprise called life.
Previous parts of this Series.
Were the seven days of creation in Genesis seven twenty four hour periods? - Delving a little deeper
Were the seven days of creation in Genesis seven twenty four hour periods? - Into the detail
Were the seven days of creation in Genesis seven twenty four hour periods? - Some conclusions
Were the seven days of creation in Genesis seven twenty four hour periods? - Some more conclusions
I hate coming in on number 6 in a series.
There go the next few days binge reading your previous posts.
Your title grabbed me first because I've had the same thought before. i.e. Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being with infinite power be constrained by a 40 hour work week, so to speak?
Does god answer to the Federal Bureau of Labor or the AFSCME?
There are far too many different translations of the Bible for people to rationally consider theirs as the one true doctrine.
The commonly held, Thou Shalt not Kill commandment that, in the original Hebrew(?) is Thou Shalt not Murder should be enough for people to step back and consider the message, not the words.
Rewrites, edits, purges have all been intended to keep those who "bring god's words to the people" in power.
In my opinion anyway.
You're one of those authors aren't you @gavvet?
You make people think. You're obviously a dangerous person. ;-)
Dangerous indeed, thanks for the compliment.
@theblindsquirl got you a $1.29 @minnowbooster upgoat, nice! (Image: pixabay.com)
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Creation myths (or any religious tales) were not made with natural processes as advocated by science in mind. These texts are more like poetry or even dreams, trying to make sense of what a human existence entails. They are humanity's attempt to express its own profundity.
I think that explanation may be a bit simplistic, a just so story...
Simplistic how? I certainly did not advocate them as mere stories. You can hardly find a better teacher than the bible when it comes to answering questions about human psychology. This is absolutely not diminishing its value, as the mind encapsulates all things.
Oral traditions are so far back in the mists of time, the amount of speculation required to explain them is on a par with any other explanation.
Religious tales however claim divine revelation and if that claim is true, the Revalator in this case, would have such knowledge and could layer it into the revealed narrative.
That I think would set such tales apart from oral myths as these would reflect other complexities.
Of tales which have survived through millennia, we can be sure as to their gravity. We strongly relate to them. Why else would they survive, reemerge or have the power to change one's convictions? Ever since speech first took place, the ideas within the stories and dreams we have conjured up have had to stand the test of time. Only the common themes among them; the most repeatable; relatable; and true (true from the human perspective) makes it to the end, written or not. These are so refined that their significance becomes religious.
To me, it matters little if the ideas we have come to call gods are found outside or inside the mind (is this distinction even possible?). They are equally true regardless.
I do find it interesting to see a different take on these old texts. The way they are often taken just doesn't do it for me scientifically but putting it like above does, if that makes sense!
That is the intent, at least that's how it works for me...
The principle that God is all knowing, that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future. In the beginning, God created the world and everything in it, including knowledge. So, we should never use science to prove and justify the holy books sent by God. God knows everything, but the more we study, the more we come to understand what an incredible truth it is. More importantly learning the original language in which the Holy books have been sent should be learnt to remove all the errors in the interpretations.
If you can't read Greek and Latin its pretty tough and even the Catholics don't do latin anymore. The "fundamentalists" in the United States read only the English King James bible and take it word for word like it was the original scripture. I stopped taking the bible literally as soon as I learned about the council of Nicea.
Revealed knowledge and observational and studied out knowledge are facets of the same gem of truth
To be fair, the verses on this post are only an English translation out of the original language, Hebrew. At some point, in-depth analysis of these phrases is useless, unless we're looking at the original language. English is great for getting the general idea across to us, but throughout the Bible, greater insight to the meaning of a text can be gained by understanding the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic words and phrases.
Good points, hence, I've looked at these phrases in the Hebrew, the translation is sufficiently accurate for these purposes.
@gavvet, It becomes even more amazing when you look deep into physics and see the universal constants, such as the relative strengths of the forces (gravity, strong nuclear and weak nuclear, etc), the speed of light, Planck's constant, etc. If one of these constants was just a little TINY bit off, there would be no life in the universe. That is pretty freaky. Now, consider that from the beginning, we have believed in Angels. They are not just harp aficionados. They are tasked with the actual mechanics of the universe, and there is a hierarchy of them, with the highest being the most powerful and knowledgeable. The knowledge of God is delegated down thru the ranks, and each angel, according to its nature, carries out its task.
With something as amazing as evolution, nobody can tell me that there is not a preternatural hand guiding it along. We did not arrive here by accident, but at the same time, we did not just get placed here. There is a recorded process, and it is good to try to see the hand of God in it, rather than cower in one of the extreme positions: that there is no God and everything is totally random (this is insane), or that there is a God and he made everything in 6 human days, just as Genesis literally states it. (childishness)
yup, there are so many enthralling options besides the intellectually lazy binary responses.
As commented further up, environment can be used to guide selection... in that way evolution can be directed and guided.
6 Days of Creation:
Day 1: the heavens and the earth are created and "Let there be light".
Day 2: God created the horizon
Day 3: the land is separated by the sea; Grownups are created
Day 4: The sun, moon and stars are created
Day 5: Animals in the oceans and birds in the air
Day 6: Animals on earth, cattle and creeping creatures, First humans created (Adam and Eve)...
Fii Sittati Ayyam in Tafsir Klasik
In the Qur'an, has explained about which of Fii Sittati Ayyam which is in the seventh letter of Al-A'raf (Place of High) verse 54 which reads:
"Your Lord is the God who created the heavens and the earth in six days".
According to the size of the world day or the equivalent of it, for in those days there was still no sun. But if God wills it He will be able to create it in a moment's eye, as for the mention of this, in order to teach His creatures to be diligent and patient in doing something
The Qur'an often uses the term sittati ayyam or commonly called "six days". This term is, among other things, in letters [7]: 54, [10]: 3, [11]: 7, [25]: 59, [32]: 4, and [50]: 38.
In addition to these verses, there are also several verses relating to the creation of the universe as in letters [41]: 9, 10, 12 and [79]: 27-33.
To understand the meaning of ayyam sittati in the context of the creation of the universe, each of these verses can not be interpreted separately. The mufassirs believe that some verses of the Qur'an interpret some of the others (Qur'anu yufassiru ba'dluhu ba'dlan). So the term sittati ayyam should be interpreted by looking at other verses related to the creation of the universe.
However, if we compare those verses, it would appear a problem in the Fushshilat Epistles 9, 10, and 12. In verse 9 it says: "... who created the Earth in two days ......", then in verse 10: " ... ..determine to him the content of his food (occupants) in four periods ... ", and verse 12:" then he made it seven heavens in two days ....... ".
If the periods in the three verses are summed, then the number becomes 8 periods, not the six periods (sittati ayyam) as mentioned in the other verses. Does this mean there is a contradiction in the Qur'an? Of course there will be no mufassir who think so.
A little of my question after giving me my reading, how do you respond mr @gavvet
Unfortunately I'm not sufficiently versed in the Qur'an to do your question justice
Your #1 handicap is the literal interpretation of a flawed text.
Voltaire a french author said 'The universe embarrasses me, and I can not think that this clock exists and has no watchmaker'.
Evolution theory and god creating the universe could be the same thing.
Agreed
I think you could find this article interesting Gavvet http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html
This quote from Einstien fits perfectly your article : "Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
I just don't dig into this "god created all", nor do I believe in god even a little bit, but it's still interesting read these kinds of topics from time to time. After all, we were all raised hearing about god as our creator :)
good of you look in from time to time
the creation story seems to be more of a de-evolving story. Just look at the life time of
man, it goes further and further down. After the flood it is possible he change of weather implied a nature that created environment hard for humans to handle. Plus giants, technology lost.. more to the story that's for sure. Love your posts!
Eden describes a fall... a fall from what is the question.
I'm writing up exactly about that. Stay tuned!!!
Thank you for this post. I like having my biases/perceptions 'tested'. Personally the creating diety conecept is not a belief thats within me, that said what is written amongst religious texts have benifit and significance.
Thanks for testing, the purpose of these posts is to test biases and perceptions.
I can't answer your question because the more I think about these questions, the more amazing they seem. For example, how many people can imagine infinity (not just a definition). So I'll listen and read wise people for now.) Thanks for your post and the topic!
good question...
Didn't realise how much you could learn from the repetition and phraseology.
Seems like creation and evolution has been interwoven and intertwined together with us not realising.
I can't wait to see what this effect this will have on the Adam and Eve story and if there is somethinf else we haven't realised.
Very interesting post indeed!
I'm looking forward to this one too...
And God created great whales and they became hope and inspiration for steemit creators.
I've read it in bible, true story.
LOL...
Good stuff, I'm going to have to check out the other parts of your series!
I doubt, they will disappoint if you liked this.
Thanks for this post! You proposed very rational lines of thought (questions) and were considerate of the original Bible text. I will be reading your other posts very soon!
Thanks, I hope you like them.
I think the explanation is beyond our scope. I think it is something very complex, or something very easy that we have all overlooked.
complex for sure...
👍😁
It is by definition not beyond our scope of understanding. We have intellect, therefore we can understand the universe. What's more, we WANT to understand it, and we are literally OBSESSED with it. It is hardwired into us, this obsession.
I'm having a tough time understanding it. I have several guesses, but my intellect may be falling short of complete comprehension.
The evolution is a word that I do not know if it is the key in life, it is clear that what is said in this article is what is written in books ,,, the question is believe in evolution ,,, ???
Our knowledge of evolutionary processes increases with time.
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/99-million-year-old-dinosaur-feathers-duster
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-1-tetrapodophis-greek-for-four-footed-snake
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-2-tiktaalik-the-fish-that-could-do-a-push-up
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/for-dailybitcoinnews-with-all-his-talk-of-all-seeing-and-third-eyes
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-archaeopteryx-is-old-news
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-4-cynodonts
Well brother, there is always a difference between what religion has to say about creation and what science says about Evolution, as referred to by Charles Darwin in "The Origin of Species" but the fact that it remains a mysterious phenomenon remains intact specially when we interpret religion say for example The Bible's Genesis says that God made this universe in 7 days. Islam says the same and according to Islamic beliefs, God made the universe in 7 days and those seven days aren't calculated seven cycles of 24 hours. The time in the universe is different from what we have on earth. There is no day or night elsewhere and hence time remains different. I want to make a point here that science doesn't account for the origin of origins. I mean how far can science trace the origin? That origin must also have an origin. Referring to Big Bang, that Big bang must also have a cause and that cause must also have a reason behind that and so on and so forth. All in all, I would like to have your say on the battle between religion and science in this connection! @gavvet
Valid observations, Eternity cannot be completely grasped by the Temporal
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
I'm familiar with this one and the ones in psalms etc.
Check out the previous discussions around this in this series, especially parts 2, 3 and 4
This was an awesome post, from a student rightly dividing the word. I ask if the sun, moon and stars were only created on the 4th day? Then how do we measure the previous 'days' or even call them 'days' 😉
It's a riddle and an ancient poem, not original to the Torah.
@gavvet you need to check this humble post it's right up your pond!
https://steemit.com/life/@lordp/multicultural-familyhood-of-earth
Thanks @gavvet for this piece, truly wonderful. It has never been more obvious that the so-called "Big Bang Theory" came out of the figment of the imagination of some scientists, simply because they don't have an explanation for the beginning of creation. Regarding evolution, I am very sure that my ancestors are not apes! If not, I believe man has lived long enough to have evolved into the next stage of "evolution", except there is a flaw in that theory. A wonderful piece once again though.
I can suggest learning more about the big bang and evolution. I felt like you at a stage too.
Very nice post I upvoted. One question as I am new here. How do you make bold text and bigger font?
bold is **text **
and - under the line makes bigger font
check out
Very God post. But what I want to say is that it does not matter God create the universe in how many days. Main things is that Gods create everything for us to live altogether happily and peacefully and everytime remembering God for each and every action we are doing. But whether now We Are remembering Him when we are enjoying ourselves, and We Are not following the God ways of living together, Peace fully working with self less motivation and taking care of others including nature's also.
True, but some of us like to understand a few of the details...
When dismissing the 7x24hour possibility, did you take into account that the speed of light, which has been measured as slowing over the last several hundred years, may have been not only much faster then but perhaps even approaching infinite speed?
I have not dismissed the 7x24 hour, simply exploring other alternative that may fit current scientific understanding better.
Check out the other posts in this series for further background to the discussion.
In my opinion the explanation is very complex. I think that we will never have answers to a series of questions. I love your posts!
Congratulations! Upvote and resteem
thanks
Hectic stuff. It's a very interesting concept to try and cover. This topic has always been so controversial to me that I end up just moving on.. It's almost as bad for me as the topic 'What came first, the chicken or the egg'.. :P
It's nice to see that you are writing very in-detail. I can see you put in a lot of effort :) As that is exactly what I am striving for in my content :) I would say go check out my content, as it's very valuable in my opinion, but I am all about uplifting the people's lives both finncially and mentally, where as you are more spiritually :)
I do however belief in a balance of the lot for true, and real lasting results in life!
Thanks for the post :)
I came upon your post this morning, and I find your ideas to be valid. I will need time to absorb what you are saying, but I think your arguments are going to help me to win people over to my standpoint, which is that the Bible is the Word of God, and that it is the Truth. However, we may question and search for answers. God created us with scientific and curious minds. (Well, some of us less scientific, but still curious...) I ain't no scientist!
Exactly.
Hello. I'm from Venezuela and I speak a little English. I hope I can express myself well. Without fear of I being mistaken, the Bible "contains" the Word of God, and what we can read is the truth because it has happened in history, yet we find people speaking lies, and this is not a truth that comes out of the mouth of God.
And as others have said, the days of creation can not be calculated at the rate of 24 hours, since in the first few days there were no luminaries (sun, moon and stars) for days and nights to exist. I'm new to steemit and I was looking for topics like this to share and learn. I hope to be welcomed and accepted among you and I will continue reading. I´ll follow you, @Minnaloushe and to you too @Gavvet, Although @Theblindsquirl has called you dangerous, I think you are someone whose scientific curiosity is greater than the established concepts. Thanks for sharing this theme
Loved this post, I've pondered the same thing a lot my self as I seem to fluctuate on the fence somewhere. I don't believe the literal bible's version of creation, however as you have pointed out there seem to be many hidden metaphors. I think religious scripts are so multi layered, and depending on your level of understanding or consciousness, varying layers of information will pop out at you.
On the flip side there are also far too many gaps in the evolution theory, and plenty of scientists and anthropologists speak volumes about this, too much for a comment box to discuss.
Also, there is an exact precision in EVERYTHING, which is far too perfect to be an accident. The Fibonacci sequence/the golden ratio is present everywhere. The distance between our wrist and knuckle is the golden ratio, the distance between our eyes is the golden ratio, the Fibonacci sequence is seen in how a tree branch forms or splits, the head of a flower displays Fibonacci sequence's. Even the pyramids are built around the golden ratio. What did they know that we don't? And why Is one of the most significant mathematical/geometrical discoveries absent from mainstream education?
Me personally I can't think anything other than there is an intelligent deliberate creator, and that evolution and natural selection is a by product of that creation.
extremely well said.
and I agree that the scientific endeavor is a moving target but the general direction can be relied on even when the details seem a little fuzzy.
The golden ratio, fractals, chaos and complexity theory are some of my favorite frontiers.
Think a little on this...
evolution is non-teleological but is manipulated by the environment...
Manipulate the environment and you direct the course of evolution.
@gavvet I wish stemmit gave notifications, I was not expecting a reply :/. I am quite obsessed with all of this kind of thing, and this is exactly the reason I joined steemit, I figured I would find others here.
Have you heard of Dr Bruce Lipton? I would imagine you have as it's difficult not to be aware of him if your aware of everything above. I've read the Biology of belief about 3 times and I need to read it again, every time I do I realise something new. Epigenetics is indicating that DNA behaviour is indeed governed by the environment, gene expression depends on what conditions are present. He grew several different types of tissues from stem cells, only altering the environmental conditions each was growing in, and totally different tissues formed in each petri dish. So the environment was governing which genetic codes were expressed. (this Is the most basic thing to say about that book, I encourage everyone to read it)
This lends to concept of thoughts influencing physical health, and I've also pondered if this is what some people refer to as the Akashic records? Some kind of data base of instruction codes, I don't know. The mind boggles. Morphic resonance as described and illustrated by Rupert Sheldrake also points to some sort of 'information centre' we are all connected to and influenced by but have no idea of it. I think psychedelics in some instances, for the right people with the right level of consciousness open doors into whatever this place is. Again a topic to be discussed on it's own.
Following your trail, our environment is being manipulated in multiple ways. Negatively polarised. But for what purpose. Possibly altering expression of certain genes that maybe activate a certain part of our brain which maybe can connect to something far greater than us..................down the rabbit hole we go........
P.s not encouraging the use of drugs before anyone takes that the wrong way.
My question would be has anything ever evolved into a different species? Not simply environmental effects. For instance people are darker in Africa and produce melon due to conditions their but they will always be human right? How can a bird ever become a lion because it's cold? This is the biggest flaw in evolution. God created lions and they have been lions since the beginning of time.
I suggest you get out in the field a little more, In fact I did a series on transition fossils
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/99-million-year-old-dinosaur-feathers-duster
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-1-tetrapodophis-greek-for-four-footed-snake
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-2-tiktaalik-the-fish-that-could-do-a-push-up
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/for-dailybitcoinnews-with-all-his-talk-of-all-seeing-and-third-eyes
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-archaeopteryx-is-old-news
https://steemit.com/fossils/@gavvet/transition-fossils-part-4-cynodonts
This is great @gavvet, thanks!
I think that truth can be expressed at different levels of understanding, and God's truth is expressed in His word in a way designed to speak to all peoples at all times.
If Genesis held a detailed account of the sub-atomic processes that led to existence of planets and honey-badgers and eyelashes, then it would be meaningless to most of humanity.
Exactly
This is amazing, I've always argued with people about how the story of the earth being created in six days might just be mythical. Most myths as we well know are just exaggerations of the original story. The bible shows that a thousand years is like a day before the Lord and the thousand was like the highest amount then, before millions came to be used. If you look at it logically, God could have been talking from his own perspective of time, which would have been very different from Man's perspective of time. It's good to know that I'm neither crazy nor possessed (most people have said I am) as another person could have independently thought of this. Science and Creationism are actually two sides of the same coin.
I've never even thought about it at all I just have faith and believe but what you said about God using the elements to create the earth I think that makes alot of sense and in reading everything you put I can definitely see it that way and there is nothing wrong with that, thanks for letting me see what's out of the box🌺
Good post. The question should be how old was the universe when God created it? When He created the Earth how old was it? When He created trees how old were they? When He created Adam how old was he? When He created Eve how old was she?
This throws all dating out the window. It becomes a mute point. So maybe He did create everything 7,000 years ago and made it all in it's proper time.
God does not have an age. He is before and He is present and He is after. I do agree that dating is not so important, especially if you keep in mind that He Is (I Am).
If I am correct, then your post is asserting that macroevolution (the gain in unique information through mutations, and the change in kinds of life) is allowed in scripture. How do you reconcile the multitude of animals and supposed pre-human life having to die in order to bring forth complex life (according to modern evolutionary theory) and the claim in Genesis 1:31 that it was "very good"?
In the literal 24 hour "day" interpretation, this doesn't give any theological problem, but in an old earth creation theory where mutations give way to complex life, there is a lot of death before the fall of Genesis 3.
To be covered, hopefully next week or the week thereafter...
Thanks for this good post
glad you liked it
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@gavvet very impressive post thank you
thanks
great post @gavvet, seventh days and 24 hours, i glad to talk something behind the code.
Thx for this great post . I billive in god
great
Very interesting...
glad you found it interesting.
Nice post
Thanks
Wow.. brilliant post.. resteemed..
glad you liked it
Cool post! Interesting.
glad you found it interesting.
I interesting it
thanks
beauty of a post!
thanks
interesting information, always keep this in your mind
glad you found it interesting
Nice post I will resteem for my followers.thanks for your time putting this together.I am a religious person and I know the time and effort you put researching this materials.Thanks
thanks
Awesome post ! Keep on truckin! aloha Al
I think that you should read the Quran for better understanding how the universe starts ,,
How's that?
Bless you and your posts!
thanks