I will be supporting this proposal as it is written.
10% inflation with a large chunk of that going to splinterlands which will kept mostly off the market will have minimal impact on anybody. And if it that is too much to bear, they can get full refunds.
In this particular run, the 10% is definitely bearable, but in the future, the 3 minute cutoff might not be a good solution, as it could dramatically inflate the print run.
On the fence about it, even though I agree with it in this case.
i have read through all the comments this morning and Ive found 2 responses that I felt served head and heart, logic and love. @dagger212 and @cherute below offer up some great responses to the proposal and for future sales mechanism. I found myself feeling very torn between all of these polarised reactions but its wonderful that we have such excellent thinkers with such passion, compassion and investment nouse in this community which gives me faith that as a DAO we can thrive and use our hive mind to navigate the best way forward when these issues are encountered.
peace AND prosperity, love AND abundance, sovereignty AND community
This is a way to look at it, but then the question is, what has changed with what you have purchased? If you bought 1000 packs, you still have 1000 packs.
They won't be kept off the market. In fact, they will hurt the market more if they are giveaways. Most of the people that tend to enter the giveaways would sell the assets. I don't blame them at all if they get something worth a lot and sell it but they do it often. I can't support printing more promo cards.
Explanation : During the pre-sale, there is a prompt that clearly states how many bonus packs you are entitled to. All you needed to do is copy the number that is written. While it is annoying that someone could have gotten more pre-sale packs through the bonus, these people still got pre-sale packs. The bonus packs offer starts at 100 packs, which means these players already snagged 2 promo cards guaranteed. There are people who missed it by a few minutes, and got none.
Proposal #2) Vote is yes.
If someone had started the purchase flow in the pre-sale with the intention of buying a pre-sale pack, then it is unethical to sell them a non-presale pack. I think it is very honourable for the Splinterlands company to offer the refund on behalf of the DAO.
Proposal #3) Vote is no
Anyone who managed to buy in the pre-sale showed on time, and completed the the pre-sale within the first 500K packs. We all have places to be in life. For future sales, perhaps a new pre-sale mechanism can be found that would provide a fair and level playing ground for all players, regardless of their situation.
If someone truly believes in this community, then there will be more sales, and more events to be a part of. Missing out is never fun, but that doesn't mean the world is over.
Perhaps the DAO can vote for approved users that buy on behalf of any other player that fears they will miss out of the pre-sale. That way if you know you won't be home, or you know you can't complete a sale fast enough, you can safely delegate your buying to someone who can try. There is no guarantee that person will get the pre-sale packs either. That is just the way of the game!
All you needed to do is copy the number that is written
This is true, but in the case of the 4000 odd CL packs I have bought in batches, this is not how the UI has worked.
I've probsbly made at least 15 CL batch purchases, and so was completely unprepared for this new, regressive approach.
If you've got the vouchers, I don't see why you wouldn't want those bonus packs. And so inkeeping with the UI CURRENTLY IN PLACE FOR CL PACKS, that box should really have been autofilled.
Yes, I agree that the UI was not good, and I have no doubt that those players that didn't add their vouchers for bonus packs would obviously have wanted them. In fact, the only reason I got my bonus packs, is because I declined the confirmation, because my bonus packs didn't appear in the confirmation. In this aspect, the UI was identical to the Chaos Legion pre-sale. After declining the transaction, I saw that the bonus pack window had fully appeared, I filled it in, and completed the transaction, meaning I risked the possibility of missing out on the pre-sale entirely. Luckily that wasn't the case for me, but with 96 seconds only, there isn't a lot of time to lose.
That being said, the 500K per-sale packs are all gone now, and getting a piece of those 500K packs was the reason we all showed up. I don't support expanding that amount. Had you succeeded in putting the vouchers, that would have pushed another player out of the 500K. Or perhaps not taking the extra few seconds to fill in your vouchers is the reason why you managed to get in the 500K packs in the first place.
I absolutely support allowing those who missed out on the bonus packs to use the vouchers to get more packs, but I think they should be general sale packs.
If you noticed, the TowerDefense pre-sale was also a completely different UI then compared to the RiftWatchers, with some similarities. You first had to press 'buy now', with no option of scrolling down, and then then put in your vouchers and payment method.
I absolutely support allowing those who missed out on the bonus packs to use the vouchers to get more packs, but I think they should be general sale packs.
This seems fair to me.
Tower Defense I've not got involved with, but as a completely different game I would have no preconceptions of how things would work.
Anyway, let's see how things pan out, I'm looking forward to battling with some new cards :)
In regards to 3, what would happen if the 500K packs in presale were open to 3 minutes in a future release, and then 2M packs sell in that 3 minutes? While that is unlikely right at this moment and could be a fix in this specific example, it could cause problems down the line, where the presale promo card that would have had a run of 15,000, would then have a run of 60,000. In this case, it would be a 10% bump of ~1500 - but 4x'ing it makes the card far less valuable.
I don't have a solution for this, but I am leaning toward a hard cut off with all in the final block eligible.
However, since I like to go out on a limb...
How about a "preset" function for purchase packs, so the buy amounts can be set up prior to go live (perhaps in the last 10 minutes or something to stop automation if required), so then all that needs to be done is to click "buy" and it runs?
I have a few ideas about this. I read through about half of the comments so not sure if these have been proposed but...
People who didn't enter the extra Vouchers for bonus packs should be allowed to get those bonus packs BUT those packs should NOT count towards the promo card. I'm one of these people so I have some skin in the game. I will be unhappy not to receive the extra promo card(s) the bonus packs would have given me, but my biggest concern is the fact that I'm not receiving a few hundred dollars worth of packs I feel I should have received if not for the mass chaos in those first couple minutes. The bonus packs and Vouchers should have been autofilled based on the number purchased. That's just common sense IMO and was definitely an oversight by the UX.
100% agree with this. Anyone buying under the impression they were getting pre-sale packs deserves a refund if they want it. They didn't get what they thought they were paying for. I will point out that although they now can buy those packs cheaper on the secondary market, those secondary market packs WILL NOT count towards the remaining airdrops so...even though they may be able to buy more with the same money, they will definitely lose some future value for doing it.
In my opinion, there's no fair way to allow this number to go higher. As others have stated, you are benefitting the few at the cost of the many. You are penalizing the people who did what they had to do to get in on time to benefit some people who didn't. In point number 2 above, you are refunding people who didn't get what they thought they were paying for. Here, you are delivering less than what was promised to the people who DID get in. Not fair. It sucks but it kinda is what it is, right?
In the future, I think what needs to happen is there needs to be a defined number of promo cards being delivered. Then, you could do a 3 minute, 10 minute, 1 hour, 50 block (whatever parameter you wanted to set) and fit those promo cards into that window. You could then promise every purchaser 1 promo card for buying their first 50 packs or 100, whatever, and then divide the rest out between whatever the final number of purchased packs turns out to be. You could even do something like 100 gets 1 promo but 150 gets 2. Incentivize people to reach a higher tier. Then divide out the rest based on total packs sold/number of promos left. There's a bunch of math that could be done here to figure out the best way to do it, but at least this way, people who want in can get a promo card or two, and the whales will still be able to get larger quantities if they want them. They just won't know exactly how many until the sale is over. Instead of getting one for every 50 packs, it might be one for every 62. It might even be less than 50 if there aren't a lot of small purchasers. Like I said, I'm sure you've got people there that can take a few days to do the math and run some hypotheticals.
One final note, I will echo a few other peoples' comments regarding this/these proposals. I hope you will break them up into separate issues because they really all should be decided individually. Other than the fact they all happened on the Riftwatchers pre-sale, they're not really related.
I will also add, that if you take my solution on point one, you would be able to extend the 500,000 out to include a few more people. If, for instance, 8000 Vouchers did not get added correctly, you could deliver those 8000 packs as post pre-sale packs and add the next 8000 above the 500,000 into the pre-sale. That would at least cover a few of the people who barely missed. Like I said, while I would rather get the extra promo cards, I am ultimately responsible for not entering the voucher number correctly. I feel I deserve the packs as the UX was confusing while the rush was on, but I can see forgoing the promo cards. That will suck for the people using the bonus packs to get to 1000 for the gold foil, but they'll still get their title and will still have a legitimate chance to get one on the drop.
Overall, I think it was a great day for the entire Splinterlands economy. The best lessons in life are almost always learned the hard way. There's no substitute for experience. Hopefully the lessons learned here will serve this community well going forward.
The bonus packs and Vouchers should have been autofilled based on the number purchased. That's just common sense IMO and was definitely an oversight by the UX.
i think there are some great points in here. Love your thinking. Im, not sure whether the 8000 packs thing works, but if it did i would vote for it and pretty much the other ideas here. the other nice response is from @cherute below about how a future sale might work. Basically I think you two are thinking in the right direction (in terms of my own personal sentiment)
Yeah, upon thinking about it further, the hypothetical 8000 packs I'm talking about above were actually already sold as part of the 500,000 since they were obviously not counted during the sale. So, if they were to give out the bonus packs to the people who missed, I now really feel they need to be post pre-sale packs and not count towards the promo card. If they give out those bonuses as pre-sale packs, the final number will be 500,000 PLUS those missed bonus packs, so again, they'll be giving out more promo cards than originally intended. That said, it would probably only be a couple hundred so...not a huge increase compared to the guaranteed 10,000 plus airdrop already coming out but....still an increase.
I think the failure here was that there wasn't any system to pre purchase the pre sale so that it would be an orderly process. The pre sale started 4am here for me, and by the time I woke up all gone. I don't mind so much for me personally but thinking more broader.
Bring back the raffle system or something else that allows everyone from all tomezones a fair chance. Surely a fair chance for all no matter where you live is reasonable.
Also those less fortunate to have slower internet get a disadvantage too. Again Surely that's not the intent that the disadvantaged in the world get a further disadvantage just widening the inequality. Let's think about these things in the future please.
That's the point there is no fair time zone, so have a raffle system or something like it, so it's random chance not based on your nationality or internet speed.
Up voting myself purely to get the comment up the top so hopefully no down vote police are attracted to this. I will donate the proceeds to a worthy cause
While it is true that the UX is confusing and a hassle for users to indicate the vouchers/pack quantity manually, Splinterlands devs should already have a contingency plan for this issue as I believe it already happened in the past with Chaos Legion. They should make a system that automatically populates the maximum number of packs that one could buy with the current vouchers and SPS on-hand to remove redundancy. Having a 2-3% increase in promo card print would hurt the price of the promo card itself, no matter how small that percentage is.
Second proposal: Yes.
Everyone that participates in the pre-sale is purely in it for the limited edition promo card. If not, they could just buy the packs in the general sale. Common sense right? Hence, I agree with the 100% full refund if they found out that they did not make the cut. It doesn't matter if the company actually holds these refunded packs for promotions, etc as it's merely a transfer of ownership (no inflationary pressures here).
Third Proposal: HARD No.
Increasing the time frame to the first 3 minutes of pre-sale would be disastrous for the price of the promo card. A whopping 10% increase in print would more likely result in more than a 10% reduction in value. Not surprising that if that happens, this promo card would have the lowest price of all the legendary promo cards. It is also unfair for the players who bought packs within the hive blocks of the 500k pre-sale limit. It definitely sounds harsh and heartless, but it is what it is.
IMAGINE waiting in line to buy a LIMITED edition Watch or Shoes (fixed supply that is known to everyone). You were the last customer to get it, so you felt lucky. Then the hundreds of people behind you start to riot. To appease these people, the company manufactures more of the items and the employees start to bring them out from the warehouse/storage. I don't know man, it feels like someone spit on my face and trampled my effort.
They should make a system that automatically populates the maximum number of packs that one could buy with the current vouchers and SPS on-hand to remove redundancy.
Yep. The same as what is in place for the purchase of CL packs.
I plan to write a more in-depth explanation regarding the various reasons why I am SUPPORTING this proposal and resolution.
But as a quick response to those complaining about "precedent" and "changing the terms of what was initially announced" I would like to gently remind people that at the beginning of the year (January 2022) during the Chaos Legion general sale, Yabapmatt and Splinterlands did extend the deadline for the general sale by 3 hours, due to issues that some people had with failed credit purchases:
"While the website generally held up well during the launch, there were unfortunately some issues with payment processing for credits purchases due to the overwhelming volume. Our development team resolved the issues within a few hours and our support team has been doing a fantastic job of working through the tickets.
Since it ended up taking a while for support to resolve all of the failed credits purchases, we will be extending the window in which all pack sales will be eligible for the next THREE airdrops until 4:00 PM EST / 21:00 UTC today in order to ensure that those people who were waiting on failed purchases have a fair chance of getting their packs in time.
This means that everyone has approximately another 3 hours left to purchase Chaos legion packs that will be eligible for the first three general sale airdrops - plus all of the eight remaining airdrops to be released over the life of the edition!"
--> I recall that most people were supportive of that resolution. I don't remember many people complaining about how extending the sale period would devalue the airdrop cards for everyone else, that this was redistributing wealth, and that people who were trying to buy credits didn't sufficiently prepare because they didn't buy those credits even earlier.
Special thanks to @cryptomancer for helping to jog my memory!
#1. I fall under category #1 (had the UI issue with bonus packs).
#2. Yabapmatt falls under categories both #1 and #3 (he intentionally waited till the first 500K sold before putting his own order in. But if the proposal passes, his order would get included. And he also failed to put in for bonus packs).
#3. As Aggy mentioned on Discord Mavericks, he has a particular interest in this because if part #3 isn't passed, it significantly complicates any refund situation (which would then require board approval because of the monetary amount)
#4. I also have an interest in this because my department (Support) is going to have to deal with all the refund requests. (There will be fewer tickets to deal with if the proposal is passed).
#5. Furthermore, my department (Support) is disproportionately affected by the ramifications of this proposal passing or not passing, because we are the ones who have to deal with irate customers and we are the ones who have to reconcile broader company policies regarding refunds and other customer issues with whatever happens with this vote.
The support will also have to deal with trouble, if at one time more promo cards are printed than were specified before the purchase! because then the buyers were deceived! and that would affect more people! ;)
i don't know about any of this. It all seems like an emotional response by the company to an emotional response to people who missed the sale. If you allow 3 minutes, then what about the people on the bubble of the 3 minute mark? You not going to satisfy everyone with this. I think it is what it is. The time, process was all clearly known up front. Its a first-come first-serve type of sale/event.
Sure, devs can make the front end a better experience. Like when the counter counted down to zero, it do not refresh the page, had to do it manually, a couple of times. Had to put vouchers in manually, which you don't have to do on the CL packs.
Other then some UI stuff, I don't think anything went wrong. these things go fast, everyone in crypto knows this.
on the flip side of all this, people bought into the presale in good faith with respect to the proposed supply of the promo card. packs are much much cheaper on the aftermarket then buying in game, so now, you are proposing reducing the value of the promo card with additional inflation to appease those who are basically just sad that they didn't get it. however, those who did get it, made a financial investment based on the parameters proposed up front. Now, to change those parameters, after the fact, would not be fair to those people.
If SPL wants to give money back to people because they feel bad for the people who feel sad, that is fine. But, do what you like, but don't change the economy of the promo card because of it.
I think points 1 and 2 are perfect but point 3 should be taken out. Those that missed the cutoff for whatever reason should not be allowed to inflate the print of promo cards. This will negatively affect the value of the promo cards that those who did make the cutoff will get. It is perfectly fair to offer a refund, but to offer to inflate the supply of the promo card, no no no please no. FOMO is a thing because MISSING OUT is a thing. There was ample warning and if you couldn't buy in the first 2 seconds because you didn't care enough to: ensure stable internet connection, sufficient funds, literally everything that I've been prepping DAYS for, sorry, you don't just "deserve" to be included. That's my 2 cents. YES to 1 and 2, NO to point 3.
I see your points and on your third there's a bit of nuance. Those of us that did not get in spent a great deal of time, myself included. I watched the ticker tick down. I had issues with manually typing in the bonus packs and yes that is my fault. But at the same time at the "risk" of printing slightly more of the perks involved in the presale versus telling people that spent that amount of resources and miss by a few seconds that is infuriating. We as a game are always talking about RETENTION and RECRUITMENT of players. This is a giant mistake and sends people into some real resentment they don't get over towards the game--it's happened many times before whether justified or not. Also there are some structural issues in game that can be improved and if there is a bit of a systemic problem the game can make it much better and prevent such a thing happen going forward. Perhaps vouchers can be used to "reserve or guarantee resources or positions in such things going forward." There are a lot of great answers and we can improve or sit on our hands and really piss off a lot of people that had the resources and every good faith intention to buy a lot of these packs when SPS is at a very low relative price, even with the pump up over a little over 8 cents just before the sale started. This is meant to build hype and goodwill, not gotcha moments and a tournament of the lucky and most online efficient.
I agree and sympathize with your situation, but I feel like that's on the game dev's not accounting for literally the same scenario that occurred for Chaos Legion presale not 10 months ago. If they didn't account for this contingency I don't think its fair to alter the print rate of a card. If people get upset and leave that sucks and hurts me and my assets as well, but on principle, I feel like that game needs to suffer the consequences for what happened, not the people who did successfully purchase. So if the game wants to say that instead of printing more, they will allow people to buy general sale packs and give up the promo cards that they, the team, received, I would be ok with that.
There is a serious bug with those bonus packs. not minor UI issue.
13:47 on video.
Check this video, voucher window is shown after he confirmed the purchase on confirmation box.
So UI allowed people to buy without even knowing that there is a voucher window.
This shouldn't even be for a vote. Imagine if you get in that situation next time?
Yeah, the same thing happened to me. Plugged in the packs and hit buy, and saw the bonus pack input appear after the fact. The fact the acknowledged this and implied they would make good, let people open tickets with the TXID, then basically reversed and stated it would be put to a vote is disappointing. This was a UI issue, and here you have documented proof. Some people are implying that people should have taken their time to let that dialog appear (assuming it would) when seconds counted is a bit disingenuous.
watch mine I knew better than to hit that because we always have to put in the vouchers figured it out did it find and in time. Rushing is not an reason anyone in life gets a due over
What? There was literally no dialog for bonus packs when he clicked buy. Have you participated in anything like this before? Rushing WAS the name of the game here.
This is a fantastic follow up for the correction of literally the only thing that wasn't a legendary result of the Rift Watchers pre sale. The reaction instantly to those that felt slighted by missing out (myself included) is a superb move if the community can come to a consensus.
I think as many can be included in good faith as mentioned above to be included in the presale perks is very important. Not just because it's in my self interest but it's in the interest of the community as a whole. When "one of us in good faith feels a bit wronged, we all feel wronged." I would want everyone to walk away from this getting everything they had the resources to purchase in hand.
Some of the proposed fixes seem very reasonable. Maybe there can be a minimum amount set going forward in some of these pre sales with additional perks, and maximum amount of time that is reasonable for the team and the community both--rather than having the quickest fingers or missing out on perks that have some big consequences if you do miss out.
Again it was a historic day for the game in a shockingly positive and a momentum builder that surprised even the most bullish for this sale. Scary to think this is just the start of crazy September in the splinterverse.
If it was only my loss of value in question (due to the increase in circulation) I would vote yes to all 3 points.
However, I am extremely uncomfortable voting away other peoples' value. I hate it when people vote to raise taxes on me, so on principle I will have to vote down the 1st and 3rd points even though personally I am fine with them. 😢
I cannot in good conscience participate in an involuntary redistribution of wealth.
I would rather we set up a fund for people to donate any extra promo cards that they feel like donating to be divided equally among the people who missed out.
This is true compassion and caring, as opposed to giving away other peoples' wealth.
This would perhaps require a bit more coding, but it would make a process that is more equitable and less susceptible to network jams.
Prior to the start of a sale, set up a page that allows users to enter the total # of items they wish to purchase in the sale and authorize the necessary funding for the purchase. Once the sale starts the transactions will happen automatically according to the rules below which would also apply to manual transactions
Limit the # of items that a user can purchase in a single transaction
Set a cooldown between transactions per user
Set a maximum mint number
A formula could be applied to both the item limit and the cooldown so that, for example, the limit could go up after a set time to allow whales to make larger purchases once the initial rush is over.
Examples
(Just giving the idea - these numbers would probably not be ideal)
For pack presales set a transaction limit of 100 gems/transaction and a cooldown of 1 min between transactions. After 5 minutes raise the limit to 500 gems and after 10 minutes remove the limit.
For items with smaller mint limits like the Runies set the limit to 1
Benefits
This would allow users from any time zone, on any work schedule, with any kind of disabilities, etc. to participate in the sale
Krill and Minnows would have an opportunity to get their small purchases in before the Whales swallow the bulk of the sale
Automating the purchase transactions should give more control and prevent network congestion and related issues
Having intended sales pre-entered would give the developers an idea ahead of time about the level of interest in the sale
Having the limit/cooldown follow a formula allows a great deal of flexibility for different types of sales
Drawbacks
You might lose a tiny bit of the FOMO factor
Maybe some difficulties with the transaction authorizations? I'm assuming that since we can set up pre-authorized buy orders on PeakMonsters that we could do something similar for this.
The biggest drawback I see to this is it would mean that people would set up many multiple accounts in order to get all of their guaranteed packs. Unfortunately, it is what it is. If people want to game the system, they'll find a way. There really is no perfect way to do it. As an economy, they need to take care of the whales since they are the ones providing the bulk of the money, but they also need to make sure the little guys can participate or it just becomes a haves vs the have-nots situation.
I'm not sure what the best solution is but it's encouraging that they are at least putting in the time and effort to think about it. It's never going to be perfect as there's no way to make everyone happy, just like everything else in life.
love these ideas. I would vote for this to be persued as a sales mechanism (or at least to be further discussed in depth). I also liked the response from @dagger212 above in regards to the proposals. I think that between the two of you there is a line of thought that I can get on board with. Thanks for putting the effort in. I was struggling to find a middle ground between my heart and my head while reading through all these answers
I think something like this is the fairest way. You can avoid multi-account shenanigans by having the smart contract randomly choose accounts weighted by the number of packs they wish to purchase instead of a transaction limit. They then get allocated up to 50 packs and the promo if they wanted the full 50.
see,
i live in the philippines
presale was 2AM my time. had to put an alarm just to not miss out.
there's a fiber cut in my area so i used my mobile data as hotspot for my laptop to connect to splinterlands.
i have to manually input 870 and 130 in those boxes just to make sure i get my 1K pack.
all downside is on my part but I WANT TO GET A GF OC BADLY and luckily,i made it - block 67,936,447
if in case i didn't make it, i won't complain cause that's the rule.
it is what it is guys, why do we need to complicate all these?
we all did our best to participate in the pre-sale but it is really the first 500K packs buyers win.
so, i will really vote against this.
Splinterlands can donate to the players, but we can't donate as individuals? Do we have to vote everyone's wealth away together? Let the community donate that are willing, and let the people who received it following the guidelines we all experienced keep it if they so want. Let's see this as a learning experience, donate what we are willing, and start discussing the solution to the next sale. Thank you for your consideration!!
I wont be supporting this, proper planning prevents piss poor production. If you want to give them a refund or make it up to the 1/6th of the people who missed the promo cut off with CL packs or something else, thats fine, but the promo should stay at the intended supply.
Next time only sell however many packs are in the presale, this will allow them to sell for a premium on secondary markets and also be more definitive
I don't agree with this at all. I also think that the post has a big failure. It doesn't have a part going over how this hurts the people that did right. Many of us put in our orders the right way. We made sure to be there at the exact time. Even invest in better internet because of drops like these. It should at least be noted that now the Rarity of the Promo card is getting a hit so that value is getting a hit. You need to provide how many more cards and titles are going out. We should know how much extra supply is coming out if we approve this.
Also in general I don't like this idea. What is the point of having a promo card and limited presale if you don't make people go to the market if they miss out and instead alter the rules to allow them to get them items?
I can support refunds for the people that bought packs after the cut off. The site should have stopped the sale at least for a little bit.
I was there right at the point of sale, I was trying to figure out what to do and boom general sale, I bought the general sale and congratulated those that could get in the presale earlier. And what everyone should do.
If people are complaining about the UI and lack of instructions before hand, cool, I get that, it’s subject to improvement.
it is a nogo, the buyers buy something limited, and to increase the number after the fact is cheating!
if e.g. limited shoes are sold, then in the end also not more are produced than were specified just because someone came too late!
the fact that we are discussing this after the fact alone is pretty sad, the rules were set up beforehand, finished!
I don't believe you need to change anything. The sale was fast and furious , i have experienced many and lost out a lot. Its part of the game. Just because a few of the richer community didn't get their dopamine hit shouldn't mean SPL should comprise rarity of the promo card. There were many small buys during the pre sale which i believe is great for the less wealthy community.
If these change were to be implemented i think it would affect the on boarding of new players
I think the team did an outstanding job of solving the issues that came up. Its awesome to see you take action so quickly after carefully thinking through the issues the community raised.
if it wasn't worth taking off work for - then you didn't want it as bad as others and you don't get the limited supply...that is how limited supply works. Show up when available, or miss out.
I believe I'm someone that falls in that 3 min window (I'll have to check which block is the 3 min cut off point), and for those who feel this is unfair if it were to be included in the proposal and pass, let me describe what happened to me.
I was ready right at the moment the countdown finished to purchase the bulk packs with 15% bonus. Realizing I could move a bit more SPS from HE to my SL account to better utilize the 15% bonus on a few dozen more packs, I went to another window to make this transfer, then I came back and processed my purchase.
At no point before I switched tabs, or after I came back did I see an active countdown of packs being sold that qualified for the promo. There was a tally, but it wasn't updating live from what I could see, as it was stuck on something like 125 packs sold which was there from right when the page popped up after the countdown. It only updated to over 500K packs sold after I purchased. I had no idea whether I had qualified for the promo or not until I looked up the block cutoff of block ******464 that was posted around.
Had I seen how fast they were moving I would have just done the 2 clicks of "500 packs + purchase" and not fussed around trying to make a larger purchase, and I'd have made it in. Or, had I seen that I missed the 500K promo pack cut off, I also just wouldn't have purchased any, and I'd probably instead bought a node with those funds... which I have obviously missed tranch 1 of now as my purchase funds are locked up until all of this is figured out.
Another thing that wasn't available which I hope the community might agree warrants allowing rewards up to 3 min in this case, is it would make sense for the sales window and calculator for total sps and vouchers required to be able to be filled out, so that at the right moment it's just a single click that's required. As alluded to in the post this would streamline it for everyone (abled and less abled) no matter how many packs they want to purchase, without confusion around the vouchers, and having enough funds immediately available.
Having been in previous Splinterlands promo releases, they've never gone this fast, so it wasn't expected which I hope adds to everyone's understanding of other people's frustration with what happened. If anyone here has ever been a part of the frenzied and often glitchy popular NFT releases you can experience on platforms like WAX, I'm sure you'd agree it would also be great if future Splinterlands releases DIDN'T end up going in that direction when possible, but since it did happen, hopefully you can understand how some of us by error, simple misunderstanding, etc, missed this release, and how we'd be grateful for the rewards to be extended to a 3 min window as proposed.
There should be a break between presale and general sale, 5-15 minute break with "presale sold out general sale starts in 5-15 minutes" page displayed in the period after presale.
That would fix the issue for people purchasing outside of presale but thinking they qualified.
The other issues are everywhere in every competitive sales. It is the quick and the dead and unless some version of secured whitelisting is implemented then it's not correct to "nerf the world".
Changing numbers after the fact is not correct either, even in good faith. It doesn't inspire confidence that the team sticks to it's word in the face of outside pressure.
My thought is
1 ) Yes you should let them use the vouchers to get the packs but NO they should not increase the print of the promo code.
2 ) I'm fine with Splinterlands assuming the Purchases of people who want refunds becuase they weren't in on the promo sale.
3 ) I'm not in favor of changing the circumstances under which anyone purchased the packs to get the promo. People made investment decisions based on the published criteria of the scarcity of these promo cards ( IE they will never appear in packs and they will be limited to the first 500k packs ) I think it sets a bad pricdent to change that AFTER the pack sale. Going forward saying all packs purchased in the first x minutes will be eligible for presale might be a better method but also will probably cause less push and shoving so i think that should be carefully looked at. I will be voting NO if all three of these Proposals are linked together. I'm ok with 1 ) if its adjusted to not inflated pre-sale, 2 ) I'm fine with as written and 3) I'm strongly against it.
For those with slow internet or disabilities, these are known in advance. Group buys exist for people in these scenarios. I participated in a group buy (thanks, Hawks21!) and am pleased with the outcome.
Agreed that the UX was pretty poor for those that weren't notified that they missed the window. Those people should be made whole with refunds, and that shouldn't impact those that successfully made the cut. Yes, give people the opportunity to submit vouchers, that shows you are taking care of the customer and it doesn't hurt the community. Kudos!
A proposal with multiple options creates a challenge where the situation is quite nuanced with only a binary decision. I bet that many people would vote Yes for parts of the proposal and vote No for another. Increasing supply does not seem like a fair solution because it negatively impacts the 90%+ of those who got in successfully and can problem solve.
I think the group buy is a good option here too - I think there should always be a fair chance of missing out, as it is part of the gamification of a presale.
I have been fortunate to catch each new sale since I started my Splinterlands journey back in August 2021 so I am posting this not out of personal preference but from standpoint of what I think would be a fair approach for all (I know people that have missed out on various sales).
I fully appreciate what you are trying to achieve and while the 3min window will help many, I think the approach can be improved further to truly give everyone who wants to take part in the presale the opportunity to do so.
The best approach would be to give people the option to "pre-load" their funds/vouchers in say the 24 hours immediately prior to the presale going live and these purchases would instantly complete when the sale starts, without the buyer needing to be around. This is however a more technically complex solution when perhaps a simple approach would suffice...
Just extend the 3 min window to 12 or 24 hours - the issue with 3mins is that it will likely fall during the night for some people and could easily happen while someone is at a key appointment that cannot be moved (for example; a funeral, a doctors app or a key meeting at work). Giving people a larger window of time like this would all that can be reasonably be expected of you?
I know from a sales perspective selling out in 2mins looks good but even with the larger window you can still say you have sold out within the same timeframe just that you honour buys with presale bonuses for a longer duration (I can't really see what the downside of an extended window is).
Thanks @splinterlands and @aggroed for considering this proposal. Although I was only able to get 3 packs I was one who missed the cutoff by just a few blocks (5 to be exact) this shows that the community and players are being heard and supported. Just wanted to thank you here.
I think this is a reasonable response for this particular situation, but I am worried about expectations and setting as a precedent. I was fortunate enough to get some packs before the cutoff, but I can certainly understand the frustration experienced by those who thought they were getting it, and am fully in agreement with the spirit of #2 and #3 as a remedy for this particular pre-sale.
Personally I don't have as much sympathy for the first proposal point - the use of vouchers looked to me very similar to the voucher setup that has been on the Chaos Legion page for months, so I'm not sure how it was so confusing. However at 2-3% impact, it's not a make-or-break in my view, although wonder what precedent it sets.
I worry though a 3 minute window on future presales may pose some problems in the future if demand far outstrips the desired presale supply. For instance, we saw how quickly the large investors mobilized on nodes. If presale is targetted at 500,000, and this sells out in first 15 seconds, it seems plausible that deep pocketed investors could quickly assess, and perhaps buy much more than intended. How upset would this community be if the entire Riftwatcher edition was purchased in a 3 minute presale window? Diluting promos and further limiting accessibility for anyone that couldn't be at a computer for those 3 minutes.
Out of the 3 proposals, 1 probably has the highest claim. You were entitled to a bonus but because of a UX mix up you are suggesting players don't get it? they aren't getting something they weren't entitled to, providing they use the vouchers required they should get the bonus packs they were due. I am surprised this is even on the proposal to be honest because @aggroed said on the event stream that Splinterlands would honour the bonus packs. CL presale DIDN'T require vouchers for bonus packs, it was only after the presale that they became a requirement, this I think contributed to many not understanding they explicitly were required to manually enter a voucher figure for bonus packs.
I'll respectfully disagree. I'm not really sympathetic to complaints about the UX pre-filling or comparison to CL presale... it was pretty clear from the beginning that this sale was new and different - vouchers needed for the entire sale, new currency, all proceeds to DAO. If someone gets a lagging page refresh, I'd argue that's more of a UX problem than a voucher needing to be entered manually and not being entered?
It's one thing to honour the bonus packs and give them at cost of a voucher instead of $5 / voucher, but the prop as stated would count all of these as "pre-sale" packs and correspondingly give pre-sale bonuses. I spent the time to plan, read, calculate and double-check my buy before clicking submit - at the risk of not getting in before the cutoff. I have less sympathy for people that clicked buy without reviewing, than I do for people that clicked buy presale but actually bought non-presale.
With that said, I'll respect the community vote. My preference though is these are separate votes.
I only pointed out the CL comparison because you cited it initially but wasn't aware if you knew that it changed from presale to general sale. That vouchers was required is not the issue that was pretty clear, it was the way it worked in practice, enough made the mistake for @aggroed to state on stream that Splinterlands would honour the bonus packs. Actually watched a few players on stream and it is obvious the UX didn't work well with regard to bonus packs. I just think the proposal should only be for extending the presale time, since the vouchers and refunds for packs bought after presale were already verbally agreed to and other streamers have repeated this in their streams. Also support tickets have been issued with regards to vouchers and refunds on that basis.
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. I wasn't around at the time of CL Presale so it's good background. Thanks for a good respectful dialogue on what can be a divisive issue!
Although it is a design mistake not to have a default value in voucher spent for bonus packs, i still buyer should have been careful about this. You are making a purchase worth 100s of dollars so you gotta be sure you are doing everything right. Compensation for those are nice but not necessary in my opinion.
Definitely yes. There should have a been 5-10 min break between presale and general sale. So those who think they are buying for presale but couldn't make the first 500k, must be refunded.
Definitely no. It was declared as first 500k would be eligible for presale, so changing it is not fair for the ones who made everything ready on time and made their purchase in the 1st minute without an issue. These kind of sales need a commitment from the ones who is dying to buy those packs. Bad connections, being 1 minute late, etc are all part of the game and we all knew this could happen.
Yes to all points. 1 Minute and 39 seconds was just crazy and now proves we will need a better system going forward. 3 minute window is a very reasonable solution and also allowing refunds is fine. Voucher use also agree with and I agree with @nealmcspadden they should have been included automatically providing you had the vouchers in hand to pay for the bonus packs.
Sounds fair to me when your debating only 3 minutes vs 1.5 its still damn fast to sell out! I kind of miss the first 24 hours of sales like with Chaos that are not timezone sensitive but time window sensitive as I wasn't able to buy in time as I was busy that day and only could look at it 2 hours later.
--
From Chaos launch
In order to attempt to prevent a huge rush to buy packs when the general sale begins, we will make it so that ALL packs purchased in the first 24 hours of the general sale will be eligible for all of the remaining airdrops.
For example, if over 3M packs are sold in the first 24 hours of the general sale, then there will be three new cards airdropped to pack purchasers, and EVERY PACK purchased in those first 24 hours will be eligible for ALL THREE of the airdrops.
This means that there is no rush to get packs quickly when the general sale starts - everyone will have 24 hours to purchase their packs and receive all of the same benefits as players who purchased earlier.
I am against this in its current form, we all had the same chance, you rushed and missed voucher bonus, tough thats life, If the team want to add that later on trade it is not in presale packs, Proposal 1 and 3 is a NO.. Proposal 2 I do not like it how it is but you are playing with the DAO and accepting responsibility to refund, This needs a rethink, down vote from Druids. Is this Blockchain or not,, Web3.
In short: 1 - yes, 2 - yes, 3 - no. More about 3: One of my transactions was on block 67936465, that is, the final block 67936464 is my next. But I will vote NO (3) because:
I live by the principle of "a man said - a man did, if he's a man"
There was information in advance that the promo cards would be received by the first 500,000 packs who bought them, hence the conclusion that this issue is closed. Those people who could well done! - the rest - you'll be lucky next time! It is impossible to increase the total amount of the declared drop of promo cards - this is a deception of those who managed, as well as an increase in the supply on the market and a decrease in the cost of the promo. Or you are obliged to compensate the difference to those who managed (by dropping more cards or otherwise, and these people must agree with the proposal). Based on these obvious things, in case of voting on item 3, I will naturally vote NO.
Any deviation from the 500k packs listed in the whitepaper will completely destroy credibility of the system and result in smart investors looking elsewhere.
Users, like me - accepted that truth was being spoken presale, and if I took opportunity costs to participate, that there would indeed be exactly 500k packs eligible for rewards.
Now you want to dilute the rarity with zero compensation?
Suddenly the op costs to participate in TD, GLX, etc is unknown and unacceptable...
I will be supporting this proposal as it is written.
I would like to see consideration be given moving forward to a sign up list or a raffle to place everyone on an even playing field vs whoever has the fastest internet, hands, or bot for purchasing. It's not nearly as fun from a marketing perspective, but it's definetly more fair.
What do you mean the sps went to the dao. their private property?
I thought we all vote on what should happen to them.
and i am against more people becoming eligible for the promo card as intended!!
especially 3 minutes a bit exaggerated, who should please have such a blatant delay? who has not made it in the first minute, has slept through it and is himself to blame!
Loved the presale day, and the first couple of minutes after it 😜
I think if this passes it will do good to all the community 😙, it is just wrong and unfair.
I honestly had no idea if the presale would sell out in minutes or weeks, I had nothing to gauge the demand whatsoever, and when it sold out in a minute I did feel bad for people in other timezones that just had no opportunity to make this purchase.
I appreciate the Splinterlands company thinking of ways to work through the issues of this amazing presale for those affected, and as a community member I'll be more than happy to vote positively for the 3 changes that would help out other community members get what they had organised resources to purchase.
I personally have no concern over the 10% increase in presale packs - the benefits far outweigh the slight reduction in rarity to me.
there is no benefits, the people that get pulled into the bubble will be happy, then the people on the outside of the new bubble will not be happy. The rules and terms of the sale were all published in advance. So, there is no need to change anything in this one. Sure, feedback can be garnished to feed how the next one goes...to solve the timezone, have x% of packs release every 2 hours or something, then there is presale for every time zone.
people in other timezones that just had no opportunity to make this purchase.
This is an utterly ridiculous claim. Humans have proven for centuries they are capable of being awake and alert at whatever hour of the day is important enough for them to do so.
I made sacrifices to make the sale - others did not. There is not an hour of the day that I would not have been able to sacrifice and be present. Same is true for everyone in general.
After the counter reached zero and the option to buy appeared, there were already 127 packs sold. I hit buy instantly, after doing so I was launched to the open packs page, went back to the buy page and 522k packs had been sold. That was extremely fast, so I'm not sure if my purchased packs go into the presale, I hope so.
As for the proposal, I think the three minutes is too short, why not extend it to the first 600k packs purchased or 700k, maybe that way it can be solved for all those who are asking for a refund or are dissatisfied.
On my part there is only uncertainty, but if it turns out that my packs are not eligible for the promotional card I will be very disappointed.
Regards and thanks for the considerations.
Spanish: Luego que el contador llegó a cero y apareció la opción de comprar ya habían 127 packs vendidos. Le dí a comprar instantáneamente, luego de hacerlo fui lanzado a la página de abrir los packs, volví de nuevo a la la página de compra y se habían vendido 522k packs. Eso fue extremadamente rápido, así que no estoy seguro si mis packs comprados entran en la preventa, espero que sí.
En cuanto a la propuesta, pienso que los tres minutos es poco tiempo, porque no alargarla a los primeros 600k packs comprados o 700k, quizás de esa forma se puede solventar para todos aquellos que están pidiendo una devolución o están insatisfechos.
De mi parte solo queda incertidumbre, pero si resulta que mis packs no son elegibles para optar por la carta promocional estaré muy decepcionado.
I am one of those affected and for this time the three solutions seem good to me. But for future sales, the only thing I see as necessary would be a tutorial on how the sale would work so that people could be ready un the real sale. For the rest, the first come first serve system seems to me to be the right one since by notifying interested people with time, it can be organized. Of course, the use of bots tonbuy is forbided.
I understand what the splinterlands team is trying to due but I do worry about the precedence it sets.
I know there are some not able and live where they don't have internet so to that I can't speak about as I don't experience this and I'm glad SL is taking this into account but I worry about if this is the case for people or people making excuse hoping SL will help them.
The team set exception ahead of time it would only be the first 500. People can say I didn't expect it to sell out in a minute but if you wanted you needed to be ready.
I waited for SPS to get as high as it would before RW. I purchased a node 15 - 30 second before the presale which took some time. I click on the rift gems (which may be my saving grace cause I heard people on the screen where it did refresh), sat and calculated how many packs I could buy with my remaining SPS and enter my bonus packs.
I entered my bonus packs this is the way it was currently working on the site and has been since I joined in Feb with CL packs so I'm not sure why this has to be refunded. I watch someone on stream buy packs without entering and person he was on stream with said uh did you enter the bonus packs. The response was oh no I didn't.
I'm not sure how I will vote on this I feel like voting yes from the emotional side but from an overall logistic side I think it should be a no.
Personally I like the proposal as written. I got most of what I intended in time, but think this would show excellent goodwill towards everyone who did actually participate, which is vital for maintaining a strong community and KEEPING new community members. Even those who this does not affect directly will see how the company operates, which I consider to be above and beyond compared to any other project/game company out there. I personally experienced a UI bug in my second purchase where the voucher entry box was 'stacked' behind the other boxes and unaccessible (I was actively looking for it during the second purchase).
I might also recommend a buy limit cap for events like this, as has been done before with great success (ie waka, license pre-sale, both of which limited the purchase to one item per click/transaction). Allowing the 'max level' per transaction/click in a case like this would be ideal imo... ie in this case the 'top level' was 2K packs, so allowing only up to 2K packs per transaction would be an excellent way to meter such a sale and offer more opportunity to more participants.
I will be supporting this proposal as it is written.
10% inflation with a large chunk of that going to splinterlands which will kept mostly off the market will have minimal impact on anybody. And if it that is too much to bear, they can get full refunds.
In this particular run, the 10% is definitely bearable, but in the future, the 3 minute cutoff might not be a good solution, as it could dramatically inflate the print run.
On the fence about it, even though I agree with it in this case.
To add, going forward my suggestions would be:
Create an alert between presale and general sale. Confirm that I want to buy even though I missed the cutoff.
Voucher bonuses at maximum levels should be part of the total purchase by default and require manual entry to remove.
This is the minimum that should be done.
I still like the FOMO effect though - not everyone does.
Agreed
i have read through all the comments this morning and Ive found 2 responses that I felt served head and heart, logic and love. @dagger212 and @cherute below offer up some great responses to the proposal and for future sales mechanism. I found myself feeling very torn between all of these polarised reactions but its wonderful that we have such excellent thinkers with such passion, compassion and investment nouse in this community which gives me faith that as a DAO we can thrive and use our hive mind to navigate the best way forward when these issues are encountered.
peace AND prosperity, love AND abundance, sovereignty AND community
Changing what I purchased after the fact in any way is unacceptable.
This is a way to look at it, but then the question is, what has changed with what you have purchased? If you bought 1000 packs, you still have 1000 packs.
No - I bought X packs, AND X/Y %% of the total supply of the promo card.
If the Y changes as proposed, what I bought has changed.
Yes, I understand that, but it is also the "not in your wallet, not yours" kind of thing. You have the packs - the promo card is yet to be yours.
I completely understand your view too though - just raising the question.
Correct - the packs still hold some % of the value I was purchasing.
While I would potentially consider compensation to those in the 500k for the increased liquidity vs what was promised in rewards cards...
The MUCH better, and hard to argue against solution is:
DAO uses that SPS in the fund to purchase promo cards in the secondary market. Then do whatever the DAO wants with those cards...
To anyone that repeats "10% dilution is acceptable":
Agreed, this is just a one-time fix. Going forward there should be very clear expectations.
How to mention about that this is the only one-time fix
😊 to the devs quite more?
Also I want to add that this can be perceived for this situation as a "bugs bounty". :3
They won't be kept off the market. In fact, they will hurt the market more if they are giveaways. Most of the people that tend to enter the giveaways would sell the assets. I don't blame them at all if they get something worth a lot and sell it but they do it often. I can't support printing more promo cards.
I can support refunds
What gave you the crazy idea that SPL will be getting any of these additional promo cards? They won't be, and they won't keep them off the market....
Amazing initiative!
Proposal #1) Vote is no.
Explanation : During the pre-sale, there is a prompt that clearly states how many bonus packs you are entitled to. All you needed to do is copy the number that is written. While it is annoying that someone could have gotten more pre-sale packs through the bonus, these people still got pre-sale packs. The bonus packs offer starts at 100 packs, which means these players already snagged 2 promo cards guaranteed. There are people who missed it by a few minutes, and got none.
Proposal #2) Vote is yes.
If someone had started the purchase flow in the pre-sale with the intention of buying a pre-sale pack, then it is unethical to sell them a non-presale pack. I think it is very honourable for the Splinterlands company to offer the refund on behalf of the DAO.
Proposal #3) Vote is no
Anyone who managed to buy in the pre-sale showed on time, and completed the the pre-sale within the first 500K packs. We all have places to be in life. For future sales, perhaps a new pre-sale mechanism can be found that would provide a fair and level playing ground for all players, regardless of their situation.
If someone truly believes in this community, then there will be more sales, and more events to be a part of. Missing out is never fun, but that doesn't mean the world is over.
Perhaps the DAO can vote for approved users that buy on behalf of any other player that fears they will miss out of the pre-sale. That way if you know you won't be home, or you know you can't complete a sale fast enough, you can safely delegate your buying to someone who can try. There is no guarantee that person will get the pre-sale packs either. That is just the way of the game!
This is true, but in the case of the 4000 odd CL packs I have bought in batches, this is not how the UI has worked.
I've probsbly made at least 15 CL batch purchases, and so was completely unprepared for this new, regressive approach.
If you've got the vouchers, I don't see why you wouldn't want those bonus packs. And so inkeeping with the UI CURRENTLY IN PLACE FOR CL PACKS, that box should really have been autofilled.
Yes, I agree that the UI was not good, and I have no doubt that those players that didn't add their vouchers for bonus packs would obviously have wanted them. In fact, the only reason I got my bonus packs, is because I declined the confirmation, because my bonus packs didn't appear in the confirmation. In this aspect, the UI was identical to the Chaos Legion pre-sale. After declining the transaction, I saw that the bonus pack window had fully appeared, I filled it in, and completed the transaction, meaning I risked the possibility of missing out on the pre-sale entirely. Luckily that wasn't the case for me, but with 96 seconds only, there isn't a lot of time to lose.
That being said, the 500K per-sale packs are all gone now, and getting a piece of those 500K packs was the reason we all showed up. I don't support expanding that amount. Had you succeeded in putting the vouchers, that would have pushed another player out of the 500K. Or perhaps not taking the extra few seconds to fill in your vouchers is the reason why you managed to get in the 500K packs in the first place.
I absolutely support allowing those who missed out on the bonus packs to use the vouchers to get more packs, but I think they should be general sale packs.
If you noticed, the TowerDefense pre-sale was also a completely different UI then compared to the RiftWatchers, with some similarities. You first had to press 'buy now', with no option of scrolling down, and then then put in your vouchers and payment method.
Cheers!
This seems fair to me.
Tower Defense I've not got involved with, but as a completely different game I would have no preconceptions of how things would work.
Anyway, let's see how things pan out, I'm looking forward to battling with some new cards :)
In regards to 3, what would happen if the 500K packs in presale were open to 3 minutes in a future release, and then 2M packs sell in that 3 minutes? While that is unlikely right at this moment and could be a fix in this specific example, it could cause problems down the line, where the presale promo card that would have had a run of 15,000, would then have a run of 60,000. In this case, it would be a 10% bump of ~1500 - but 4x'ing it makes the card far less valuable.
I don't have a solution for this, but I am leaning toward a hard cut off with all in the final block eligible.
However, since I like to go out on a limb...
How about a "preset" function for purchase packs, so the buy amounts can be set up prior to go live (perhaps in the last 10 minutes or something to stop automation if required), so then all that needs to be done is to click "buy" and it runs?
I think this is how I will vote if we have 3 proposals to mull over - falling to a no on number 3, or abstaining.
I have a few ideas about this. I read through about half of the comments so not sure if these have been proposed but...
People who didn't enter the extra Vouchers for bonus packs should be allowed to get those bonus packs BUT those packs should NOT count towards the promo card. I'm one of these people so I have some skin in the game. I will be unhappy not to receive the extra promo card(s) the bonus packs would have given me, but my biggest concern is the fact that I'm not receiving a few hundred dollars worth of packs I feel I should have received if not for the mass chaos in those first couple minutes. The bonus packs and Vouchers should have been autofilled based on the number purchased. That's just common sense IMO and was definitely an oversight by the UX.
100% agree with this. Anyone buying under the impression they were getting pre-sale packs deserves a refund if they want it. They didn't get what they thought they were paying for. I will point out that although they now can buy those packs cheaper on the secondary market, those secondary market packs WILL NOT count towards the remaining airdrops so...even though they may be able to buy more with the same money, they will definitely lose some future value for doing it.
In my opinion, there's no fair way to allow this number to go higher. As others have stated, you are benefitting the few at the cost of the many. You are penalizing the people who did what they had to do to get in on time to benefit some people who didn't. In point number 2 above, you are refunding people who didn't get what they thought they were paying for. Here, you are delivering less than what was promised to the people who DID get in. Not fair. It sucks but it kinda is what it is, right?
In the future, I think what needs to happen is there needs to be a defined number of promo cards being delivered. Then, you could do a 3 minute, 10 minute, 1 hour, 50 block (whatever parameter you wanted to set) and fit those promo cards into that window. You could then promise every purchaser 1 promo card for buying their first 50 packs or 100, whatever, and then divide the rest out between whatever the final number of purchased packs turns out to be. You could even do something like 100 gets 1 promo but 150 gets 2. Incentivize people to reach a higher tier. Then divide out the rest based on total packs sold/number of promos left. There's a bunch of math that could be done here to figure out the best way to do it, but at least this way, people who want in can get a promo card or two, and the whales will still be able to get larger quantities if they want them. They just won't know exactly how many until the sale is over. Instead of getting one for every 50 packs, it might be one for every 62. It might even be less than 50 if there aren't a lot of small purchasers. Like I said, I'm sure you've got people there that can take a few days to do the math and run some hypotheticals.
One final note, I will echo a few other peoples' comments regarding this/these proposals. I hope you will break them up into separate issues because they really all should be decided individually. Other than the fact they all happened on the Riftwatchers pre-sale, they're not really related.
I will also add, that if you take my solution on point one, you would be able to extend the 500,000 out to include a few more people. If, for instance, 8000 Vouchers did not get added correctly, you could deliver those 8000 packs as post pre-sale packs and add the next 8000 above the 500,000 into the pre-sale. That would at least cover a few of the people who barely missed. Like I said, while I would rather get the extra promo cards, I am ultimately responsible for not entering the voucher number correctly. I feel I deserve the packs as the UX was confusing while the rush was on, but I can see forgoing the promo cards. That will suck for the people using the bonus packs to get to 1000 for the gold foil, but they'll still get their title and will still have a legitimate chance to get one on the drop.
Overall, I think it was a great day for the entire Splinterlands economy. The best lessons in life are almost always learned the hard way. There's no substitute for experience. Hopefully the lessons learned here will serve this community well going forward.
Totally agree.
i think there are some great points in here. Love your thinking. Im, not sure whether the 8000 packs thing works, but if it did i would vote for it and pretty much the other ideas here. the other nice response is from @cherute below about how a future sale might work. Basically I think you two are thinking in the right direction (in terms of my own personal sentiment)
Yeah, upon thinking about it further, the hypothetical 8000 packs I'm talking about above were actually already sold as part of the 500,000 since they were obviously not counted during the sale. So, if they were to give out the bonus packs to the people who missed, I now really feel they need to be post pre-sale packs and not count towards the promo card. If they give out those bonuses as pre-sale packs, the final number will be 500,000 PLUS those missed bonus packs, so again, they'll be giving out more promo cards than originally intended. That said, it would probably only be a couple hundred so...not a huge increase compared to the guaranteed 10,000 plus airdrop already coming out but....still an increase.
I think the failure here was that there wasn't any system to pre purchase the pre sale so that it would be an orderly process. The pre sale started 4am here for me, and by the time I woke up all gone. I don't mind so much for me personally but thinking more broader.
Bring back the raffle system or something else that allows everyone from all tomezones a fair chance. Surely a fair chance for all no matter where you live is reasonable.
Also those less fortunate to have slower internet get a disadvantage too. Again Surely that's not the intent that the disadvantaged in the world get a further disadvantage just widening the inequality. Let's think about these things in the future please.
the team cannot do raffles as that falls under US gambling law.
But they did a raffle for land sale were they not in the US then?
That was before they knew what they were doing. Lawyers have since told them no.
4am for me too in Aus, stayed up all night and a mate came around. It took planning but you're in a global system. There is no "fair" time zone.
That's the point there is no fair time zone, so have a raffle system or something like it, so it's random chance not based on your nationality or internet speed.
lol
Up voting myself purely to get the comment up the top so hopefully no down vote police are attracted to this. I will donate the proceeds to a worthy cause
My opinion:
First proposal: On the Fence.
Second proposal: Yes.
Third Proposal: HARD No.
IMAGINE waiting in line to buy a LIMITED edition Watch or Shoes (fixed supply that is known to everyone). You were the last customer to get it, so you felt lucky. Then the hundreds of people behind you start to riot. To appease these people, the company manufactures more of the items and the employees start to bring them out from the warehouse/storage. I don't know man, it feels like someone spit on my face and trampled my effort.
Yep. The same as what is in place for the purchase of CL packs.
I plan to write a more in-depth explanation regarding the various reasons why I am SUPPORTING this proposal and resolution.
But as a quick response to those complaining about "precedent" and "changing the terms of what was initially announced" I would like to gently remind people that at the beginning of the year (January 2022) during the Chaos Legion general sale, Yabapmatt and Splinterlands did extend the deadline for the general sale by 3 hours, due to issues that some people had with failed credit purchases:
https://peakd.com/splinterlands/@splinterlands/chaos-legion-general-sale-stats-and-airdrop-updates
"While the website generally held up well during the launch, there were unfortunately some issues with payment processing for credits purchases due to the overwhelming volume. Our development team resolved the issues within a few hours and our support team has been doing a fantastic job of working through the tickets.
Since it ended up taking a while for support to resolve all of the failed credits purchases, we will be extending the window in which all pack sales will be eligible for the next THREE airdrops until 4:00 PM EST / 21:00 UTC today in order to ensure that those people who were waiting on failed purchases have a fair chance of getting their packs in time.
This means that everyone has approximately another 3 hours left to purchase Chaos legion packs that will be eligible for the first three general sale airdrops - plus all of the eight remaining airdrops to be released over the life of the edition!"
--> I recall that most people were supportive of that resolution. I don't remember many people complaining about how extending the sale period would devalue the airdrop cards for everyone else, that this was redistributing wealth, and that people who were trying to buy credits didn't sufficiently prepare because they didn't buy those credits even earlier.
Special thanks to @cryptomancer for helping to jog my memory!
you might want to mention that you are not unbiased, and are asking for 1000 packs yourself.
#1. I fall under category #1 (had the UI issue with bonus packs).
#2. Yabapmatt falls under categories both #1 and #3 (he intentionally waited till the first 500K sold before putting his own order in. But if the proposal passes, his order would get included. And he also failed to put in for bonus packs).
#3. As Aggy mentioned on Discord Mavericks, he has a particular interest in this because if part #3 isn't passed, it significantly complicates any refund situation (which would then require board approval because of the monetary amount)
#4. I also have an interest in this because my department (Support) is going to have to deal with all the refund requests. (There will be fewer tickets to deal with if the proposal is passed).
#5. Furthermore, my department (Support) is disproportionately affected by the ramifications of this proposal passing or not passing, because we are the ones who have to deal with irate customers and we are the ones who have to reconcile broader company policies regarding refunds and other customer issues with whatever happens with this vote.
The support will also have to deal with trouble, if at one time more promo cards are printed than were specified before the purchase! because then the buyers were deceived! and that would affect more people! ;)
i don't know about any of this. It all seems like an emotional response by the company to an emotional response to people who missed the sale. If you allow 3 minutes, then what about the people on the bubble of the 3 minute mark? You not going to satisfy everyone with this. I think it is what it is. The time, process was all clearly known up front. Its a first-come first-serve type of sale/event.
Sure, devs can make the front end a better experience. Like when the counter counted down to zero, it do not refresh the page, had to do it manually, a couple of times. Had to put vouchers in manually, which you don't have to do on the CL packs.
Other then some UI stuff, I don't think anything went wrong. these things go fast, everyone in crypto knows this.
on the flip side of all this, people bought into the presale in good faith with respect to the proposed supply of the promo card. packs are much much cheaper on the aftermarket then buying in game, so now, you are proposing reducing the value of the promo card with additional inflation to appease those who are basically just sad that they didn't get it. however, those who did get it, made a financial investment based on the parameters proposed up front. Now, to change those parameters, after the fact, would not be fair to those people.
If SPL wants to give money back to people because they feel bad for the people who feel sad, that is fine. But, do what you like, but don't change the economy of the promo card because of it.
I think points 1 and 2 are perfect but point 3 should be taken out. Those that missed the cutoff for whatever reason should not be allowed to inflate the print of promo cards. This will negatively affect the value of the promo cards that those who did make the cutoff will get. It is perfectly fair to offer a refund, but to offer to inflate the supply of the promo card, no no no please no. FOMO is a thing because MISSING OUT is a thing. There was ample warning and if you couldn't buy in the first 2 seconds because you didn't care enough to: ensure stable internet connection, sufficient funds, literally everything that I've been prepping DAYS for, sorry, you don't just "deserve" to be included. That's my 2 cents. YES to 1 and 2, NO to point 3.
I see your points and on your third there's a bit of nuance. Those of us that did not get in spent a great deal of time, myself included. I watched the ticker tick down. I had issues with manually typing in the bonus packs and yes that is my fault. But at the same time at the "risk" of printing slightly more of the perks involved in the presale versus telling people that spent that amount of resources and miss by a few seconds that is infuriating. We as a game are always talking about RETENTION and RECRUITMENT of players. This is a giant mistake and sends people into some real resentment they don't get over towards the game--it's happened many times before whether justified or not. Also there are some structural issues in game that can be improved and if there is a bit of a systemic problem the game can make it much better and prevent such a thing happen going forward. Perhaps vouchers can be used to "reserve or guarantee resources or positions in such things going forward." There are a lot of great answers and we can improve or sit on our hands and really piss off a lot of people that had the resources and every good faith intention to buy a lot of these packs when SPS is at a very low relative price, even with the pump up over a little over 8 cents just before the sale started. This is meant to build hype and goodwill, not gotcha moments and a tournament of the lucky and most online efficient.
I agree and sympathize with your situation, but I feel like that's on the game dev's not accounting for literally the same scenario that occurred for Chaos Legion presale not 10 months ago. If they didn't account for this contingency I don't think its fair to alter the print rate of a card. If people get upset and leave that sucks and hurts me and my assets as well, but on principle, I feel like that game needs to suffer the consequences for what happened, not the people who did successfully purchase. So if the game wants to say that instead of printing more, they will allow people to buy general sale packs and give up the promo cards that they, the team, received, I would be ok with that.
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There is a serious bug with those bonus packs. not minor UI issue.
13:47 on video.
Check this video, voucher window is shown after he confirmed the purchase on confirmation box.
So UI allowed people to buy without even knowing that there is a voucher window.
This shouldn't even be for a vote. Imagine if you get in that situation next time?
It was ..and I CHECKED the confirmation, knowing I hadn't entered the vouchers that I KNEW ahead of time were required.
So.. I hit "cancel" on the prompt to confirm "A clearly incorrect order"
Then I interacted w/ the page - really just clicked to put focus back and take a look - then keyed my vouchers..and hit buy again.
And then.... I CHECKED THE CONFIRMATION... and it was "cleary the correct order", so I confirmed....
Thanks for sharing this. This is a helpful example! 😺
Yeah, the same thing happened to me. Plugged in the packs and hit buy, and saw the bonus pack input appear after the fact. The fact the acknowledged this and implied they would make good, let people open tickets with the TXID, then basically reversed and stated it would be put to a vote is disappointing. This was a UI issue, and here you have documented proof. Some people are implying that people should have taken their time to let that dialog appear (assuming it would) when seconds counted is a bit disingenuous.
watch mine I knew better than to hit that because we always have to put in the vouchers figured it out did it find and in time. Rushing is not an reason anyone in life gets a due over
What? There was literally no dialog for bonus packs when he clicked buy. Have you participated in anything like this before? Rushing WAS the name of the game here.
This is EXACTLY what happened to me
I assume that we are adults and who confirms the purchase although too few packs are displayed is probably his own fault!
This is a fantastic follow up for the correction of literally the only thing that wasn't a legendary result of the Rift Watchers pre sale. The reaction instantly to those that felt slighted by missing out (myself included) is a superb move if the community can come to a consensus.
I think as many can be included in good faith as mentioned above to be included in the presale perks is very important. Not just because it's in my self interest but it's in the interest of the community as a whole. When "one of us in good faith feels a bit wronged, we all feel wronged." I would want everyone to walk away from this getting everything they had the resources to purchase in hand.
Some of the proposed fixes seem very reasonable. Maybe there can be a minimum amount set going forward in some of these pre sales with additional perks, and maximum amount of time that is reasonable for the team and the community both--rather than having the quickest fingers or missing out on perks that have some big consequences if you do miss out.
Again it was a historic day for the game in a shockingly positive and a momentum builder that surprised even the most bullish for this sale. Scary to think this is just the start of crazy September in the splinterverse.
If it was only my loss of value in question (due to the increase in circulation) I would vote yes to all 3 points.
However, I am extremely uncomfortable voting away other peoples' value. I hate it when people vote to raise taxes on me, so on principle I will have to vote down the 1st and 3rd points even though personally I am fine with them. 😢
I cannot in good conscience participate in an involuntary redistribution of wealth.
I would rather we set up a fund for people to donate any extra promo cards that they feel like donating to be divided equally among the people who missed out.
This is true compassion and caring, as opposed to giving away other peoples' wealth.
Proposal for Future Sales instead of 3 min. rule
This would perhaps require a bit more coding, but it would make a process that is more equitable and less susceptible to network jams.
Examples
(Just giving the idea - these numbers would probably not be ideal)
Benefits
Drawbacks
The biggest drawback I see to this is it would mean that people would set up many multiple accounts in order to get all of their guaranteed packs. Unfortunately, it is what it is. If people want to game the system, they'll find a way. There really is no perfect way to do it. As an economy, they need to take care of the whales since they are the ones providing the bulk of the money, but they also need to make sure the little guys can participate or it just becomes a haves vs the have-nots situation.
I'm not sure what the best solution is but it's encouraging that they are at least putting in the time and effort to think about it. It's never going to be perfect as there's no way to make everyone happy, just like everything else in life.
love these ideas. I would vote for this to be persued as a sales mechanism (or at least to be further discussed in depth). I also liked the response from @dagger212 above in regards to the proposals. I think that between the two of you there is a line of thought that I can get on board with. Thanks for putting the effort in. I was struggling to find a middle ground between my heart and my head while reading through all these answers
Additional benefit - you wouldn't need to worry about hiding the page in fear of bots as the playing field would be level for everyone.
I think something like this is the fairest way. You can avoid multi-account shenanigans by having the smart contract randomly choose accounts weighted by the number of packs they wish to purchase instead of a transaction limit. They then get allocated up to 50 packs and the promo if they wanted the full 50.
see,
i live in the philippines
presale was 2AM my time. had to put an alarm just to not miss out.
there's a fiber cut in my area so i used my mobile data as hotspot for my laptop to connect to splinterlands.
i have to manually input 870 and 130 in those boxes just to make sure i get my 1K pack.
all downside is on my part but I WANT TO GET A GF OC BADLY and luckily,i made it - block 67,936,447
if in case i didn't make it, i won't complain cause that's the rule.
it is what it is guys, why do we need to complicate all these?
we all did our best to participate in the pre-sale but it is really the first 500K packs buyers win.
so, i will really vote against this.
Yes to points 1&2 no to 3.
Splinterlands can donate to the players, but we can't donate as individuals? Do we have to vote everyone's wealth away together? Let the community donate that are willing, and let the people who received it following the guidelines we all experienced keep it if they so want. Let's see this as a learning experience, donate what we are willing, and start discussing the solution to the next sale. Thank you for your consideration!!
I wont be supporting this, proper planning prevents piss poor production. If you want to give them a refund or make it up to the 1/6th of the people who missed the promo cut off with CL packs or something else, thats fine, but the promo should stay at the intended supply.
Next time only sell however many packs are in the presale, this will allow them to sell for a premium on secondary markets and also be more definitive
I don't agree with this at all. I also think that the post has a big failure. It doesn't have a part going over how this hurts the people that did right. Many of us put in our orders the right way. We made sure to be there at the exact time. Even invest in better internet because of drops like these. It should at least be noted that now the Rarity of the Promo card is getting a hit so that value is getting a hit. You need to provide how many more cards and titles are going out. We should know how much extra supply is coming out if we approve this.
Also in general I don't like this idea. What is the point of having a promo card and limited presale if you don't make people go to the market if they miss out and instead alter the rules to allow them to get them items?
I can support refunds for the people that bought packs after the cut off. The site should have stopped the sale at least for a little bit.
I don’t like the idea either.
I was there right at the point of sale, I was trying to figure out what to do and boom general sale, I bought the general sale and congratulated those that could get in the presale earlier. And what everyone should do.
If people are complaining about the UI and lack of instructions before hand, cool, I get that, it’s subject to improvement.
100% in line with what I think about the issue...
There needs to be a clear break between presale and general, that woudl save what I see to be a major issue.
The rest is up to the purchaser and it is their own personal responsibility to take part in a competitive presale.
it is a nogo, the buyers buy something limited, and to increase the number after the fact is cheating!
if e.g. limited shoes are sold, then in the end also not more are produced than were specified just because someone came too late!
the fact that we are discussing this after the fact alone is pretty sad, the rules were set up beforehand, finished!
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I don't believe you need to change anything. The sale was fast and furious , i have experienced many and lost out a lot. Its part of the game. Just because a few of the richer community didn't get their dopamine hit shouldn't mean SPL should comprise rarity of the promo card. There were many small buys during the pre sale which i believe is great for the less wealthy community.
If these change were to be implemented i think it would affect the on boarding of new players
I think the team did an outstanding job of solving the issues that came up. Its awesome to see you take action so quickly after carefully thinking through the issues the community raised.
What a great day in more ways than one!
Totally agree, good job, even i made it within the window I am happy the community benefits
Guys, keep in mind that not everyone can sit at the computer 24/7 and wait for the sale.
I was on the road at the time of launch and sales.
3 minutes to buy is not serious for such expenses.
Please make at least 1 hour for this action in order to do all this without nerves and haste.
if it wasn't worth taking off work for - then you didn't want it as bad as others and you don't get the limited supply...that is how limited supply works. Show up when available, or miss out.
I believe I'm someone that falls in that 3 min window (I'll have to check which block is the 3 min cut off point), and for those who feel this is unfair if it were to be included in the proposal and pass, let me describe what happened to me.
I was ready right at the moment the countdown finished to purchase the bulk packs with 15% bonus. Realizing I could move a bit more SPS from HE to my SL account to better utilize the 15% bonus on a few dozen more packs, I went to another window to make this transfer, then I came back and processed my purchase.
At no point before I switched tabs, or after I came back did I see an active countdown of packs being sold that qualified for the promo. There was a tally, but it wasn't updating live from what I could see, as it was stuck on something like 125 packs sold which was there from right when the page popped up after the countdown. It only updated to over 500K packs sold after I purchased. I had no idea whether I had qualified for the promo or not until I looked up the block cutoff of block ******464 that was posted around.
Had I seen how fast they were moving I would have just done the 2 clicks of "500 packs + purchase" and not fussed around trying to make a larger purchase, and I'd have made it in. Or, had I seen that I missed the 500K promo pack cut off, I also just wouldn't have purchased any, and I'd probably instead bought a node with those funds... which I have obviously missed tranch 1 of now as my purchase funds are locked up until all of this is figured out.
Another thing that wasn't available which I hope the community might agree warrants allowing rewards up to 3 min in this case, is it would make sense for the sales window and calculator for total sps and vouchers required to be able to be filled out, so that at the right moment it's just a single click that's required. As alluded to in the post this would streamline it for everyone (abled and less abled) no matter how many packs they want to purchase, without confusion around the vouchers, and having enough funds immediately available.
Having been in previous Splinterlands promo releases, they've never gone this fast, so it wasn't expected which I hope adds to everyone's understanding of other people's frustration with what happened. If anyone here has ever been a part of the frenzied and often glitchy popular NFT releases you can experience on platforms like WAX, I'm sure you'd agree it would also be great if future Splinterlands releases DIDN'T end up going in that direction when possible, but since it did happen, hopefully you can understand how some of us by error, simple misunderstanding, etc, missed this release, and how we'd be grateful for the rewards to be extended to a 3 min window as proposed.
There should be a break between presale and general sale, 5-15 minute break with "presale sold out general sale starts in 5-15 minutes" page displayed in the period after presale.
That would fix the issue for people purchasing outside of presale but thinking they qualified.
The other issues are everywhere in every competitive sales. It is the quick and the dead and unless some version of secured whitelisting is implemented then it's not correct to "nerf the world".
Changing numbers after the fact is not correct either, even in good faith. It doesn't inspire confidence that the team sticks to it's word in the face of outside pressure.
My thought is
1 ) Yes you should let them use the vouchers to get the packs but NO they should not increase the print of the promo code.
2 ) I'm fine with Splinterlands assuming the Purchases of people who want refunds becuase they weren't in on the promo sale.
3 ) I'm not in favor of changing the circumstances under which anyone purchased the packs to get the promo. People made investment decisions based on the published criteria of the scarcity of these promo cards ( IE they will never appear in packs and they will be limited to the first 500k packs ) I think it sets a bad pricdent to change that AFTER the pack sale. Going forward saying all packs purchased in the first x minutes will be eligible for presale might be a better method but also will probably cause less push and shoving so i think that should be carefully looked at. I will be voting NO if all three of these Proposals are linked together. I'm ok with 1 ) if its adjusted to not inflated pre-sale, 2 ) I'm fine with as written and 3) I'm strongly against it.
For those with slow internet or disabilities, these are known in advance. Group buys exist for people in these scenarios. I participated in a group buy (thanks, Hawks21!) and am pleased with the outcome.
Agreed that the UX was pretty poor for those that weren't notified that they missed the window. Those people should be made whole with refunds, and that shouldn't impact those that successfully made the cut. Yes, give people the opportunity to submit vouchers, that shows you are taking care of the customer and it doesn't hurt the community. Kudos!
A proposal with multiple options creates a challenge where the situation is quite nuanced with only a binary decision. I bet that many people would vote Yes for parts of the proposal and vote No for another. Increasing supply does not seem like a fair solution because it negatively impacts the 90%+ of those who got in successfully and can problem solve.
I think the group buy is a good option here too - I think there should always be a fair chance of missing out, as it is part of the gamification of a presale.
I have been fortunate to catch each new sale since I started my Splinterlands journey back in August 2021 so I am posting this not out of personal preference but from standpoint of what I think would be a fair approach for all (I know people that have missed out on various sales).
I fully appreciate what you are trying to achieve and while the 3min window will help many, I think the approach can be improved further to truly give everyone who wants to take part in the presale the opportunity to do so.
The best approach would be to give people the option to "pre-load" their funds/vouchers in say the 24 hours immediately prior to the presale going live and these purchases would instantly complete when the sale starts, without the buyer needing to be around. This is however a more technically complex solution when perhaps a simple approach would suffice...
Just extend the 3 min window to 12 or 24 hours - the issue with 3mins is that it will likely fall during the night for some people and could easily happen while someone is at a key appointment that cannot be moved (for example; a funeral, a doctors app or a key meeting at work). Giving people a larger window of time like this would all that can be reasonably be expected of you?
I know from a sales perspective selling out in 2mins looks good but even with the larger window you can still say you have sold out within the same timeframe just that you honour buys with presale bonuses for a longer duration (I can't really see what the downside of an extended window is).
Thanks for taking the time to read.
Dark.Star
Thanks @splinterlands and @aggroed for considering this proposal. Although I was only able to get 3 packs I was one who missed the cutoff by just a few blocks (5 to be exact) this shows that the community and players are being heard and supported. Just wanted to thank you here.
I think this is a reasonable response for this particular situation, but I am worried about expectations and setting as a precedent. I was fortunate enough to get some packs before the cutoff, but I can certainly understand the frustration experienced by those who thought they were getting it, and am fully in agreement with the spirit of #2 and #3 as a remedy for this particular pre-sale.
Personally I don't have as much sympathy for the first proposal point - the use of vouchers looked to me very similar to the voucher setup that has been on the Chaos Legion page for months, so I'm not sure how it was so confusing. However at 2-3% impact, it's not a make-or-break in my view, although wonder what precedent it sets.
I worry though a 3 minute window on future presales may pose some problems in the future if demand far outstrips the desired presale supply. For instance, we saw how quickly the large investors mobilized on nodes. If presale is targetted at 500,000, and this sells out in first 15 seconds, it seems plausible that deep pocketed investors could quickly assess, and perhaps buy much more than intended. How upset would this community be if the entire Riftwatcher edition was purchased in a 3 minute presale window? Diluting promos and further limiting accessibility for anyone that couldn't be at a computer for those 3 minutes.
Out of the 3 proposals, 1 probably has the highest claim. You were entitled to a bonus but because of a UX mix up you are suggesting players don't get it? they aren't getting something they weren't entitled to, providing they use the vouchers required they should get the bonus packs they were due. I am surprised this is even on the proposal to be honest because @aggroed said on the event stream that Splinterlands would honour the bonus packs. CL presale DIDN'T require vouchers for bonus packs, it was only after the presale that they became a requirement, this I think contributed to many not understanding they explicitly were required to manually enter a voucher figure for bonus packs.
I'll respectfully disagree. I'm not really sympathetic to complaints about the UX pre-filling or comparison to CL presale... it was pretty clear from the beginning that this sale was new and different - vouchers needed for the entire sale, new currency, all proceeds to DAO. If someone gets a lagging page refresh, I'd argue that's more of a UX problem than a voucher needing to be entered manually and not being entered?
It's one thing to honour the bonus packs and give them at cost of a voucher instead of $5 / voucher, but the prop as stated would count all of these as "pre-sale" packs and correspondingly give pre-sale bonuses. I spent the time to plan, read, calculate and double-check my buy before clicking submit - at the risk of not getting in before the cutoff. I have less sympathy for people that clicked buy without reviewing, than I do for people that clicked buy presale but actually bought non-presale.
With that said, I'll respect the community vote. My preference though is these are separate votes.
I only pointed out the CL comparison because you cited it initially but wasn't aware if you knew that it changed from presale to general sale. That vouchers was required is not the issue that was pretty clear, it was the way it worked in practice, enough made the mistake for @aggroed to state on stream that Splinterlands would honour the bonus packs. Actually watched a few players on stream and it is obvious the UX didn't work well with regard to bonus packs. I just think the proposal should only be for extending the presale time, since the vouchers and refunds for packs bought after presale were already verbally agreed to and other streamers have repeated this in their streams. Also support tickets have been issued with regards to vouchers and refunds on that basis.
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. I wasn't around at the time of CL Presale so it's good background. Thanks for a good respectful dialogue on what can be a divisive issue!
!pizza
Thank you. This is exactly what was needed to restore the faith.
Yes to all points. 1 Minute and 39 seconds was just crazy and now proves we will need a better system going forward. 3 minute window is a very reasonable solution and also allowing refunds is fine. Voucher use also agree with and I agree with @nealmcspadden they should have been included automatically providing you had the vouchers in hand to pay for the bonus packs.
Sounds fair to me when your debating only 3 minutes vs 1.5 its still damn fast to sell out! I kind of miss the first 24 hours of sales like with Chaos that are not timezone sensitive but time window sensitive as I wasn't able to buy in time as I was busy that day and only could look at it 2 hours later.
--
From Chaos launch
In order to attempt to prevent a huge rush to buy packs when the general sale begins, we will make it so that ALL packs purchased in the first 24 hours of the general sale will be eligible for all of the remaining airdrops.
For example, if over 3M packs are sold in the first 24 hours of the general sale, then there will be three new cards airdropped to pack purchasers, and EVERY PACK purchased in those first 24 hours will be eligible for ALL THREE of the airdrops.
This means that there is no rush to get packs quickly when the general sale starts - everyone will have 24 hours to purchase their packs and receive all of the same benefits as players who purchased earlier.
I am against this in its current form, we all had the same chance, you rushed and missed voucher bonus, tough thats life, If the team want to add that later on trade it is not in presale packs, Proposal 1 and 3 is a NO.. Proposal 2 I do not like it how it is but you are playing with the DAO and accepting responsibility to refund, This needs a rethink, down vote from Druids. Is this Blockchain or not,, Web3.
I vote number 2 . You cannot edit supply after the sale that's not the way things work. You will lose people confidence in future sales.
I read alot of comments and they r freaking awesome. The power of sps staked is at play.
I will personally downvote all 3. The past is in the past. Fix things for future. :)
In short: 1 - yes, 2 - yes, 3 - no. More about 3: One of my transactions was on block 67936465, that is, the final block 67936464 is my next. But I will vote NO (3) because:
I live by the principle of "a man said - a man did, if he's a man"
There was information in advance that the promo cards would be received by the first 500,000 packs who bought them, hence the conclusion that this issue is closed. Those people who could well done! - the rest - you'll be lucky next time! It is impossible to increase the total amount of the declared drop of promo cards - this is a deception of those who managed, as well as an increase in the supply on the market and a decrease in the cost of the promo. Or you are obliged to compensate the difference to those who managed (by dropping more cards or otherwise, and these people must agree with the proposal). Based on these obvious things, in case of voting on item 3, I will naturally vote NO.
1 - NO
2 - Yes
3 - NO
Any deviation from the 500k packs listed in the whitepaper will completely destroy credibility of the system and result in smart investors looking elsewhere.
Users, like me - accepted that truth was being spoken presale, and if I took opportunity costs to participate, that there would indeed be exactly 500k packs eligible for rewards.
Now you want to dilute the rarity with zero compensation?
Suddenly the op costs to participate in TD, GLX, etc is unknown and unacceptable...
I will be supporting this proposal as it is written.
I would like to see consideration be given moving forward to a sign up list or a raffle to place everyone on an even playing field vs whoever has the fastest internet, hands, or bot for purchasing. It's not nearly as fun from a marketing perspective, but it's definetly more fair.
Presale should be 1st million packs.😁
What do you mean the sps went to the dao. their private property?
I thought we all vote on what should happen to them.
and i am against more people becoming eligible for the promo card as intended!!
especially 3 minutes a bit exaggerated, who should please have such a blatant delay? who has not made it in the first minute, has slept through it and is himself to blame!
I 100% agree with this. This proposal to increase the number of presales undermines those of us who prepared in advance.
We all knew that vouchers needed to be entered as it is an optional bonus.
Why should the majority that did it right have to suffer and lose the value of the promised items to accommodate the people who made mistakes?
I'm pretty sure it should not have taken 1 minute to type up 3 or 4 digits into that box.
3 mins to buy? Most of those weren't even interested in buying at all and just decided on the spot.
Loved the presale day, and the first couple of minutes after it 😜
I think if this passes it will do good to all the community 😙, it is just wrong and unfair.
I honestly had no idea if the presale would sell out in minutes or weeks, I had nothing to gauge the demand whatsoever, and when it sold out in a minute I did feel bad for people in other timezones that just had no opportunity to make this purchase.
I appreciate the Splinterlands company thinking of ways to work through the issues of this amazing presale for those affected, and as a community member I'll be more than happy to vote positively for the 3 changes that would help out other community members get what they had organised resources to purchase.
I personally have no concern over the 10% increase in presale packs - the benefits far outweigh the slight reduction in rarity to me.
there is no benefits, the people that get pulled into the bubble will be happy, then the people on the outside of the new bubble will not be happy. The rules and terms of the sale were all published in advance. So, there is no need to change anything in this one. Sure, feedback can be garnished to feed how the next one goes...to solve the timezone, have x% of packs release every 2 hours or something, then there is presale for every time zone.
This is an utterly ridiculous claim. Humans have proven for centuries they are capable of being awake and alert at whatever hour of the day is important enough for them to do so.
I made sacrifices to make the sale - others did not. There is not an hour of the day that I would not have been able to sacrifice and be present. Same is true for everyone in general.
So now I am not so sure I bought packs in the pre-sale... 😂
I really like the dedication of the team and the community during these challenges.
For me the voting system is a perfect solution for these moments.
After the counter reached zero and the option to buy appeared, there were already 127 packs sold. I hit buy instantly, after doing so I was launched to the open packs page, went back to the buy page and 522k packs had been sold. That was extremely fast, so I'm not sure if my purchased packs go into the presale, I hope so.
As for the proposal, I think the three minutes is too short, why not extend it to the first 600k packs purchased or 700k, maybe that way it can be solved for all those who are asking for a refund or are dissatisfied.
On my part there is only uncertainty, but if it turns out that my packs are not eligible for the promotional card I will be very disappointed.
Regards and thanks for the considerations.
Spanish: Luego que el contador llegó a cero y apareció la opción de comprar ya habían 127 packs vendidos. Le dí a comprar instantáneamente, luego de hacerlo fui lanzado a la página de abrir los packs, volví de nuevo a la la página de compra y se habían vendido 522k packs. Eso fue extremadamente rápido, así que no estoy seguro si mis packs comprados entran en la preventa, espero que sí.
En cuanto a la propuesta, pienso que los tres minutos es poco tiempo, porque no alargarla a los primeros 600k packs comprados o 700k, quizás de esa forma se puede solventar para todos aquellos que están pidiendo una devolución o están insatisfechos.
De mi parte solo queda incertidumbre, pero si resulta que mis packs no son elegibles para optar por la carta promocional estaré muy decepcionado.
Saludos y gracias por las consideraciones
I am one of those affected and for this time the three solutions seem good to me. But for future sales, the only thing I see as necessary would be a tutorial on how the sale would work so that people could be ready un the real sale. For the rest, the first come first serve system seems to me to be the right one since by notifying interested people with time, it can be organized. Of course, the use of bots tonbuy is forbided.
Sorry for my level of English.
I understand what the splinterlands team is trying to due but I do worry about the precedence it sets.
I know there are some not able and live where they don't have internet so to that I can't speak about as I don't experience this and I'm glad SL is taking this into account but I worry about if this is the case for people or people making excuse hoping SL will help them.
The team set exception ahead of time it would only be the first 500. People can say I didn't expect it to sell out in a minute but if you wanted you needed to be ready.
I waited for SPS to get as high as it would before RW. I purchased a node 15 - 30 second before the presale which took some time. I click on the rift gems (which may be my saving grace cause I heard people on the screen where it did refresh), sat and calculated how many packs I could buy with my remaining SPS and enter my bonus packs.
I entered my bonus packs this is the way it was currently working on the site and has been since I joined in Feb with CL packs so I'm not sure why this has to be refunded. I watch someone on stream buy packs without entering and person he was on stream with said uh did you enter the bonus packs. The response was oh no I didn't.
I'm not sure how I will vote on this I feel like voting yes from the emotional side but from an overall logistic side I think it should be a no.
Personally I like the proposal as written. I got most of what I intended in time, but think this would show excellent goodwill towards everyone who did actually participate, which is vital for maintaining a strong community and KEEPING new community members. Even those who this does not affect directly will see how the company operates, which I consider to be above and beyond compared to any other project/game company out there. I personally experienced a UI bug in my second purchase where the voucher entry box was 'stacked' behind the other boxes and unaccessible (I was actively looking for it during the second purchase).
I might also recommend a buy limit cap for events like this, as has been done before with great success (ie waka, license pre-sale, both of which limited the purchase to one item per click/transaction). Allowing the 'max level' per transaction/click in a case like this would be ideal imo... ie in this case the 'top level' was 2K packs, so allowing only up to 2K packs per transaction would be an excellent way to meter such a sale and offer more opportunity to more participants.