Early on when Hive forked after the "bid bot" era I had this idea, this was before there was a way to promote posts on front-ends, I believe. It's been years now and aside from the default percentage I've yet to see anyone use this feature for the purpose it was meant to be used but 99.99% just to liquidate rewards using reward.app.
The idea was that you could forfeit a certain part of the post rewards to your voters. To do this, you'd simple send @reward.app a memo with the number 0-100, this would indicate the percentage you'd like to forfeit to your voters. I've currently set it to 100% for this post and the default when using reward.app is 4% which is why you may often see it send smaller rewards everywhere, we figured it was small enough of a percentage not to bother people using it just for the liquidation but large enough to cover many people so the project would market itself.
Now even though the main idea was never used properly, I do wonder what was lacking. Was it just that there's no demand for attention? We all know the bid bot era was quite a failed project as well as close to no one would buy votes because they really wanted the attention, if that was the case then the votes would never have been profitable thus having to compete with shitposts on trending by people just stacking bid votes for max APR while the sellers were just happy they were getting a lot higher returns compared to the at the time just 25% going to curators.
Since downvotes were a bit more common at the time, I figured that this idea, if abused, could always be countered by downvotes. Sure it never made it past a couple testers but had it actually had demand and been used more I'm sure @peakd would've been able to figure out how to display what % amount voters would get for each post aside from adding the water droplet icon when using @reward.app.
How do you think it would've gone had it actually been used the way it was meant to? I mean liquidating rewards is sure nice now and then when you need it, but that was just part of what it did and I guess @likwid stopping his service meant we got all the customers who prefered liquid rewards instead of getting half in hive power.
But how would it have evolved if you'd be able to tell which posts got you higher returns as a curator. If I were to constantly use this service and voters were made aware that they would get 2x returns on their vote on each and every post of mine, at some point it could lead to my posts constantly trending no matter the content. Would people bother to downvote them to adjust the rewards? How much would they downvote them knowing the % the voters were getting out of it?
Quite hypothetical questions but I wonder if we'd see more usage of this service down the line when there's a lot more people joining and wanting the attention other than the rewards. I realize when someone has something important they want trending it's not that difficult to get in touch with larger stakeholders but without those connections it might be a lot more difficult and if it's not a special post they may not always adhere to your request.
Anyway, figured a bit of a different post for once as I'm here not being able to sleep and at the same time wanting to thank my voters for their years of support, both manual and auto. Enjoy the double rewards this one time. :D
Image created with Midjourney courtesy of the year of the dragon, you zingers better be prepared for some new reveals soon!
*title - may not work with layer 2 tokens
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There's an old marketing truism that if you offer people "free beer and barbecue" they will come to you in search of free beer and barbecue.
The point being that it's very difficult to get people to use anything the way you intended if that isn't in 100% alignment with what they had in mind.
For as long as I've been here I have never really felt that Hive's problem has anything to do with the rewards pool or the power down period or paying out posts after 7 days or liquidity or anything related. Instead, I believe it has a lot to do with what we tell people they can expect to find when they come to Hive.
Similarly, if you tell curators that they can get their curation rewards in cash rather than stake, they hear the word "cash," so they take their cash and they go buy pizza.
If the original paradigm around here had been something along the lines of "creating content on Hive is an investment in your future!" with an emphasis on building stake over the long term things might be different. It's still money and people would probably still want to buy pizza, but when you're dealing with the size of the amounts we have around here even a 5% swing in one direction or another can be significant in terms of long term outcome.
I say this both in terms of broad perspective, but also to put a bug in your ear concerning your ongoing endeavors to bring Holozing to the world. Keep in mind that emphasizing "a unique and amazing game experience" is likely to bring a different outcome than emphasizing primarily "earn rewards."
Sorry about the blog on your blog!
You had me at Free Beer.
Just a half vote. Free voting power!
I think people are far more likely to get attention using the promotion feature on Peakd.
If I was at the helm I'd give content creators their own slot, and allow them to choose a promoted post from a list of promoted posts. They select before publishing. Then give the content creator a cut of whatever revenue the promoted post generates for hosting the ad on their blog. If several select that ad, they'd get a smaller share, but it would be seen by more people so could potentially be rewarded more, increasing the value of that share. Or rather than burning tokens, those tokens could be shared with those hosting the ad. If someone wanted to be near the top of the list of ads to select from, they'd pay more.
The reason I'd do it this way is because the trending page is only one page hosting the promoted post. Having it placed within several blog posts increases the chances of that ad being seen, because it's in several places at once. And the reason I'd have people select ads is so they don't end up with something they wouldn't want to promote on their blogs. That would also help prevent abusive ads(promoted posts) from appearing anywhere.
I actually wrote about this approach during the bidbot era, many many years ago. Even suggested clicking the ad (promoted post) would act just like the vote button, giving the one hosting the ad a vote. That way you're not shooting yourself in the foot for hosting an ad and potentially driving eyes elsewhere before they get a chance to support your work.
That would create an internal ad market and source of ad revenue and provide those who need it the ability to get a metric shit-ton of exposure. Plus create demand for HIVE and even provide frontends with a percentage and therefore a source of revenue.
Far more effective and efficient than randomly stumbling into a 2x reward post like this and voting. Wouldn't you rather have a Holozing ad tucked neatly inside 1000 posts? Keep in mind many don't even look at the trending page. They might be browsing communities, their own feeds, other frontends and so on. Or say there's a proposal you support and want others to support it, and they paid a bit to promote their proposal post. You could then place that post in front of your viewership alongside your normal content and the one asking for funds doesn't have to annoy people with spam.
Creates endless opportunities.
I believe reddit and twitter do this too.
For zing, we have something interesting in mind I will get to in another post, idea partly stolen from old bitcointalk.
Far better than turning the trending page into a page full of tricks and gimmicks and majority of voting power going to the shittiest content available. Bidbots 2.0 lol. Became a joke then. Buying "visibility" turned into nobody looking at the site.
Yeah but during the bid bot era we didn't have the 25% downvote mana, hence I wonder how it would've played out with this method.
Author giving out too much of the post rewards to curators hence they voted it too high and the content is garbage? Downvote.
Author is promoting a new project on hive, something worthy to have on trending and giving 10-20% extra rewards to curators, take my vote.
etc
I get it, but even for something worthwhile, it only creates the illusion of the project being popular. So they go forward with their big idea and the next announcement is crickets, or nobody is using their stuff. Then they have to resort to tricks and gimmicks again, only to once again receive the "this is such a great idea and truly inspires me to continue" comments, but nobody is using their offering.
Or the project might look legit but it's phony. All they want is attention. I'll never forget one rapper dude buying votes nonstop then insisting those were his fans. Dude was convinced he was the shit because he was "trending."
Organic approval and support is important. Helps gauge whether you're on the right track or not. I've been using Threads but won't buy premium and one of the main reasons is because it comes with that fake approval in the form of "more rewards."
I totally get where you're coming from. And I also know we won't be seeing a more productive method of promoting any time soon. Not arguing. Just sharing my perspective. Did people vote for this post because they like the idea or because they got a free lunch? Regardless of what the answer is, it still created a situation where you can only wonder.
I will be the first to admit that I never really dug too much into it, but the basic premise always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I get that some people need to take earnings out of Hive to pay their bills, but I like to see people staking too. I mean if nobody staked what would Hive really amount to? I usually base a lot of my votes and curation on that too. If you show you are trying to grow, I am going to look more favorably on that than someone who is just dumping.
There’s got to be some people who set to 50/50 and routinely sell off their HBD but don’t power down the HP that they accrue. But I have no idea how many folks do that. Sort of the best of both worlds, and might be quite viable for Hivelandians who live in poorer countries.
You've just described my planned approach quite succinctly!
I am doing that now, but only because I want to have some liquid Hive for if/when the price jumps above $1.
To be honest I haven't even heard about the reward.app 🤔
But thanks for sharing this and I roughly got the gist of it! This definitely looks interesting.
First of all, i really liked that in peakd shows what currency or in this case liquidity the rewards will be given out from.
Be it hive, spl or whatever tokens.
That era, although i basically just did a few post was utter chaos. Looking back at my post from 2019, it has steem icon for the rewards.
But if the goal was to maximize user rewards, for me at least the best reward is comments and interaction within the community I reside.
Giving out the suggested 5%-10% towards peakd, hieph, ocd and whatever community i frequent.
Contributing to the community, making it grow and overall more people is the best case for everyone.
But yeah it can also be super scary to get downvoted if your using the reward.app tactic, but eyyyyy i barely get any downvotes. Probably because of the content i make and i generally avoid communities that are gray.
Grrrrrr, you have za Holozing cat now as your pfp.
Thanks for sharing. I did not know this was a thing. I had seen small reward.app transactions in the past but did not know any details about their source.
It would be nice if there was a front-end actively promoting posts using this feature. Maybe @peakd could add that as a "Feed" or "Explore" dropdown-menu option.
It would also be nice if there was a way in which an individual upvoter could openly direct the extra rewards back to the author. That way whales could upvote the content without the appearance that they are doing so just for the extra rewards. Of course they can always just send the extra rewards to the author after-the-fact, but an up-front commitment to do so, that any and all can clearly see, might be helpful.
Yeah, I remember back in the day there were quite some ideas about the whole thing but yeah, not much happened with it iniatially so it didn't go anywhere.
There was also the ideas that with the extra curation one could experiment to do something other than linear, maybe even have a filter to exclude certain accounts from getting the rewards, maybe send some of them to rebloggers based on how many votes came in after it was reblogged and other parameters. Probably a lot that could've been done and experimented with but there wasn't much interest.
Sir please give me a second chance please sir forgive me 🥺 please sir... I want to doing work in your community please sir 🥺... Give me a second chance @acidyo
Hmmmm...
It would have made trending a lot easier.
If someone was to send 50% of the post rewards to @reward.app .
So as such, 50% of the votes would go back x2 to the voters, while the other 50% would go normally to the post creator.
Could it work like that?
If yes, it would be dope.
Hmm, it can't go 2x if it's just 50% reward.app beneficiary.
Voters already get half back automatically (unless downvoted), what's in your control is the 50% post rewards.
If you send reward.app a memo with the numbers 50, you indicate that you want 50% of the post rewards to go back to voters. You then have to set @reward.app as 100% beneficiary and Voters would then get 1.5x their vote return.
If you set the memo as 50 and only send 50% to reward.app through beneficiaries you are only parting with 25% of the post rewards then, meaning Voters would o ly get 1.25x.
:D this gets confusing easily.
if its confusing.. maybe that was the problem? seems like simple answer is often right lol
It really does😭😭😂😂😂
Wow, what a unique concept! Rewarding voters by forfeiting a part of your post rewards truly adds a fresh twist to the dynamic between content creators and their audience. Yes, it might have its drawbacks, like potential abuse, but I think the possibility of downvotes counters that nicely.
I do wonder though, if it was more widely used, how would it have shaped the platform? Would posts with bigger rewards always trend, regardless of content quality? It's all quite hypothetical, but it's definitely food for thought.
On a final note, kudos to you for thinking outside the box and rewarding your loyal voters. It's a great way to show appreciation and it certainly adds an exciting element to the platform! Can't wait to see what's next on your journey. 😄
After reading this post I understood a possible good use of reward.app but so far I have seen this service used mainly by those who are in constant power down and are left with little HP and have no interest in Hive.
Consider that in a project where I am a curator, the use of reward app is a reason for exclusion of curation.
Although I have not used reward app I think it is a useful tool if used in the right way and it has a very good and altruistic idea behind it(which I realized today reading your post) but in my opinion the minimum percentage should be 20% because in this way those who want to liquidate rewards and make continuous power downs are balanced by the distribution of rewards to the curators of the post.
Yeah I know curangel doesn't vote on posts using it and that's fine, as I said the liqudation of rewards was just a side-thing of it which turned out to be its main function. I don't think there's a point personally to punish authors that way but it does draw a lot of bad hivers to use it too, rather put that effort into checking who is using it and if they're getting rewarded fairly.
I guess the reason I never really used it was because of the 4 percent fee. I didn't like the feeling of something taking a tax from my earnings. I know the idea was that the user should get higher votes because voters are getting more back, but I guess I didn't really see that happen much.
The 4% fee can be removed, it requires you to know about it and read the how to post I guess that someone linked a screenshot of in here. You simply send a memo to the account with "0" and the curation fee goes away so u get all of the post rewards in liquid form - minus the 1% service fee.
It being default to 4% was mostly meant as a marketing stunt, people seeing they're getting some rewards from your post if you used reward.app would get them to check out what it is and why they got them and hopefully see the other thing you can do with it aside from liquidating rewards - which never happened. xD
I checked back on the comments, and found it. I remember reading some notes of the rewardapp but I might have missed the memo option. But checking the other comments, it seems I won't be using it in the future anyways. Some curators stay away from it, and curangel skips it. I guess it ended up working opposite of what you expected. xD
Haha yeah it's kind of a failed project, the dev that maintains it isn't much around either, just daydreaming in this post of what could've been had it been used the way it was meant to and how it could've transformed promotional posts or authors trying to "lure" curators into voting their posts if they gave them extra rewards and if the content was worth it, if voters just blindly voted it and if downvoters decided to adjust the rewards if it went too far. Definitely would've given some more complexity to the whole curation system but maybe for the better.
Yeah. Your explanation in the post combined with this comment really showed the potential it had. I guess it attracting the wrong crowd [extractors] eventually spelled its demise. It would be interesting to think what would happen if the rewarding voters more, and the liquid rewards were separated. Just keeping the "more rewards to voters" would do its original purpose, and the liquid rewards will remain with the extractors.
I'm new, so I always understood it as a way to simply "cash out" your post into Hive only. For those who are only in it to dump, that made sense. I always stuck with the 50/50 default so I could grow my stake.
Knowing I can use this to help promote some of my posts actually is worthwhile to me. I do a "Pay It Forward with HSBI" post every week to let people nominate someone to win 10 HSBI. I offer anyone who reblogs it a chance to win 5 HSBI to get the message out there. This combined with the 5 HSBI prize could potentially expand the reach of the post significantly if I advertise it right.
Thanks for this awesome post! 😁
!BBH
!DHEDGE
@acidyo! Your Content Is Awesome so I just sent 1 $BBH (Bitcoin Backed Hive) to your account on behalf of @bulliontools. (9/20)
Interesting. I've only used reward.app for the Blockchain Poets contests, to get liquid Hive to send to Leo for sponsoring them. After reading your post I went to read the reward.app faq. I didn't realize that it boosted curation reward or that we could change how much it boosted curation rewards. Very interesting!
It's a pretty interesting concept that you could use reward.app to incentivize voting on your post. I mean look at how many votes you've got on this post? Currently 751 and $78.39 payout. Sure you're not getting any of the payout, but your getting a lot more exposure and a lot more people interested in potentially voting for you, not like you need either, but I can definitely see the utility of something like that. You might have started something here...
Hi. My two cents. I don't use this service for two reasons and they are both related to rewards.
I used it few times in the past until I received a comment from a whale, who curates, saying that my post has been selected for curation but I won't receive their vote because I use that particular liquid service of yours.
I think 0.75% fee is fair - similar to what's now common for moving HIVE <--> SWAP.HIVE
Most of the time, the authors don't try this to get attention as, by default, the old fellows and the promoted members by some influencers always get more votes than the new users regardless of the post quality, though some big votes from appreciators and some curation chains like ocdb, curie, curangel are diversifying and voting the good contents always. So, I think there is still some nepotism in voting, but it is 100% fair, and they all have freedom and negative voting is also being used as rivals among the whales. So, grabbing attention in such a way is meaningless rather than posting good quality content, which will grab organic attention with increasing chances of getting more votes and getting trending.
It’s funny I could always tell when people were bullshitting if they made an introductory post but did the liquid reward app choice. They would try to weasel their way out of owning up they were full of shit but they always got caught.
I don’t see people using this feature much anymore which is interesting.
reward.app!? Thank you for educating us about it. I believe in staking and actively interacting within the hive community. I think that is the basic working techniques or principles in the ecosystem. It's good to go see how the reward.app works
I do not quite understand how it works, but this is a good initiative.
In my early days I wanted to explore every possible thing to earn from here, now-a-days I am indiffierent to my earning. Just reading the content and enjoying.
But I like the idea of reward.app feture to ecourage engagement and reward commenters, voters.
Thank you.
Now I understand how this concept of reward.app works. I have actually been seeing it but wondering how it has been working
I have always wanted to use this reward.app but not sure how it works, so now I might be trying it out very soon.
It seems according to what I understand with this concept, probably why many people didn't use this feature is because they felt it is not that really profitable to them as compared to just setting the reward app to themselves alone. In fact I was not even also aware of this feature before
I'll need to come back a re-read later to really understand how this works, but thanks for sharing. There's always something new to discover here, isn't there!
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Verwende den Befehl !WITZ oder !LOOL, um einen Witz und ein $LOLZ zu teilen.
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Please, thank you for making us know this. The reward.app is a good one to try from your analysis.