Total waste of money.
They drive away good users in their pursuit of policing.
Badly operated.
Bad communication.
Terrible people skills.
Total waste of money.
At $350 per day we could be running marketing campaigns.
Advertising.
Community contests.
All for less than this.
so what are you ideas on how the community does anti-abuse without hivewatchers?
will you do it?
it is just a handful voluntary people - the same since half a decade - who contribute their free time for hive anti-abuse (even countered harmful flags from flag wars @freezepeach) - and got no payment
we also do not like Hivewatchers, but they at least do something, where the big community does not care for itself..
thoughts ?
If it's voluntary why is it costing $350 a day??? Where is the money going.
I have no problem with countering abuse but i've seen HW drive away regular users by targeting them with downvotes for stupid reasons.
No explanation, no warning and no talking to them.
A proper set up would have an account with delegated HP for downvotes.
A specific reporting structure with a list of offences. Standardized so it's clear when and why a person is infringing on the community.
Report an infringement to the team.
First a friendly warning and show them where the problem lies.
If still breaking guidelines a small downvote maybe 10% of the reward.
If persistent offending then increase the downvote but a clear and specific structure on how it would work with open channels of communication.
I have no problem with a person being paid to run a service like this but it needs to be ran as a proper full time service and professionally done not just throwing downvotes around the place and refusing to interact with people in a proper way.
I've been here 7 years myself and have seen a lot over that time. I was targeted by whales back in the early days and almost driven off the platform with downvotes. They should be used sparingly and only for real abuse. Downvotes are harmful and have driven away a lot of users over the past 7 years.
It is voluntary, cuz we (and you if you voluntarily join countering abuse) dont earn anything.
We also get none of the 350$ a day for Hivewatchers ("we" is just decentralized voluntary community members) but if you want to stop Hivewatchers, we need more voluntary help
Not all transactions are onchain. There is too much obfuscation of how HW applies it's funding. There are too many good posters that are oppressed without cessation, literally 1M users driven from the platform since I've been here!
The influence of affluence has derailed HW's mission. Sketchy flags are flown against creators that post things objectionable to oligarchs on Hive, despite those posts not being spam, scams, or plagiarism. Bizarrely, when discussing posters chased off, claims are made that users don't promote Hive on other platforms, but people that post here what they also post elsewhere HW calls that plagiarism. That is exactly bass ackwards, as censorial platforms like Fakebook and Twatter send people looking for alternatives and posting their content to lots of platforms, Hive censors them instead of avails them a safe and rewarding place to post it.
I am confident that backdoor payments off chain are rewarding the more blatant opinion flagging HW continues - for years - on users that may have reposted their OWN CONTENT, or for some other excuse, despite those posters posting original content here. I donate a percentage of my author rewards to several of them, but I have to keep moving to new ones as they give up and quit posting here.
HW is flagging content creators off the platform, and nothing is worse for Hive as a community of content creators. Funding for flagging should be eliminated, and funding - as I am doing by donating 1/4 of my author rewards to flagged authors - should be promoting free speech improperly flagged instead. Hive needs to build it's community, not flag it until the creators find Twatter and Fakebook preferable. The bizarre humiliation ritual people are forced to undergo to get HW off their back is utterly unacceptable. It is blatantly malevolent. There are innumerable similar features of HW practices, and the certainty of off chain encomiums paying for opinion flags has tainted Hive with a stench that will take years to wash off when we do start defending free speech instead of flagging objectionable speech into the dust.
Spam, scams, and plagiarism should be met with appropriate response FROM THE COMMUNITY which has been empowered to defend itself. The funding availed HW should be DEFENDING free speech instead of crushing it.
I fight against abuse when and where i see it.
Not silly stuff or newbies making mistakes.
I will flag if i see plagiarized posts or straight up circle voting.
I'm happy to help hive in anyway possible to weed out users abusing the system or hurting our community but not flagging for the sake of it.
If nobody is getting the $290 per day then where is this funding going to??
Going to the wallets of the 2 supposed "Hivewatchers".
Chances are, it's just one person with a fake partner.
I'm just a guy like you..
I'd also prefer abolishing HW - it's not a new discussion
but I am against those newly wanting to abolish it since only a few days, cuz their farming sheme got busted by HW
Hi @niallon11
It would be probably better to check up on the actual proposal and discover a bit about the HW's actual activity. It is 290/day not 350/day.
For the marketing campaign, there is already a proposal running called "Value Plan".
https://hivel.ink/valueplan/@valueplan/q3-value-plan-proposal
If you have marketing ideas, you are welcome to forward them to @guityparties.
Regarding, themarkymark.
He has considered himself a Hive Blockchain martyr who has always done all the abuse fighting himself (that is limited to triggering his downvote bot on some accounts to auto-clear rewards on day 6) while no one else did any abuse fighting. At the same time, he has never done a single investigation on a single post to look for plagiarism, identity theft, etc.
He has been running the same tape "Steemcleaners/Hivewatchers do not deserve anything and I do all abuse fighting" since 2016. Our project/proposal is not the only one. He attacks all proposals. Maybe it's because he tried a proposal once and it never got a pass.
Since 2016, we have already explained in detail to him multiple times what tasks abuse fighting constitutes. The last time was in January.
Hi hivewatchers.
Regardless of $290 or $350 where is that funding going to and why would you need $105K per year to downvote a few posts???
I've reread your proposal and it's vague. Without clear guidelines, instructions or help for people wanting to deal with your team. The website has not been developed and overall it's a small group of people exerting control over the community as it sees fit often to the detriment of that same community.
Where is the breakdown of these costs.
Why is there no clear list of infringements and related penalties.
Why is there no proper structure for reporting, disputing and process.
Where is the breakdown of value saved for the community as you claim.
Where is the cost of all the decent users that have been driven away by your downvotes.
Just zeroing rewards from users is not helping the platform or it's community.
We only have about 5000 active bloggers so these costs are absurd and this set up is not working for the majority of the community. The only reason that it has funding is due to @smooth and @blocktrades voting it.
I don't care about themarkymark. I'm not a huge fan of his. He has done both good and bad for hive but i agree with him on this current topic and have never been afraid to speak my mind. It's not my first year on hive and i've seen the damage that flagging has done over those years setting us back years in terms of user growth and retention.
This is false. There are many other voters. If I unvoted it, for example, it would still be funded (which would not be the case if @blocktrades were the only remaining vote).
Furthermore, if either or both of us changed our vote, there is no way to know how other stakeholders might respond by also changing their votes, potentially changing the outcome yet again.
Your conception of how DHF voting works is a bit off.
You are falsely denying you and blocktrades have controlling stake, just as BlackRock does of corporations, without have the majority of stake.
Suckups pander to you whales. Quit being disingenuous.
I own about 1.5% of Hive.
Firstly, good to see you still around. Been a long time since i saw your name pop up in a comment section.
Fair enough. Your 6m (inc proxy) wouldn't drop it below the return proposal.
I do know how it works and i did say due to you both supporting it.
But blocktrades 23M and your 6M is roughly 80% of the support for the proposal from just two accounts. Not very reflective of community or decentralized.
Now i can't predict the outcomes but if you both stopped supporting it then it's hard to see the proposal getting over the return limit.
What you're ignoring is that there may well be other large stakeholders would vote for it if one or both of us didn't.
I can tell you for sure that I don't bother to vote for some proposals even if I support them for the simple reason that I see they're already approved and they don't need my vote. If they started to drop down too much on the list, I'd vote for them.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that voting is dynamic and you can't look at static votes as telling the conclusive "reason" why it is or isn't approved.
Wow "only" 290$.
For what?
Please answer it in my Post from yesterday, hope you read it and Answer the other Questions, too.
Here's a marketing idea: quit flagging our marketing team. Everyone that posts content here AND elsewhere draws eyeballs here. That's marketing.
Quit killing the golden goose.
You originally asked and got paid $350/day (blindly and immediately, even before you had a single comment on your proposal) until enough people made a stink about it and you reduced it to keep the gravy train going.
It's not exactly free at $350/day, though, is it?
Since 2017, when I joined the community, more than 1M accounts have joined and began posting and then been flagged off the platform. HW was not useful against the bidbots, but the community itself got rid of them when enabled to do so by tweaking DV code. Rather than fund an institution that can be - and obviously has been - corrupted to profit from attacking that ~1M users and censoring their speech on Hive, the community itself is competent to protect itself when availed the tools, as the demise of bidbots, that threatened to utterly overwhelm the platform at one point, reveals.
HW has become a tool of oppression, of censorship profiteering, and has proven the mechanism of funding is incapable of withstanding corruption and abuse. You cannot call the people of HW 'voluntary' when they're getting $350/day, which would be better spent to oppose censorship than cause it.
It is not factually correct to say the 'big community' does not care for itself. The reduction of the influence of the bidbots has proved the community does care for itself when armed to do so. The problem is that venal profiteers rise to power in a plutocracy, and Hive is a pure plutocracy in which several of the most egregious bidbotters have become entrenched in the oligarchy of top witnesses.
The solution is to fund @freezepeach and allow spam, scams, and plagiarists to be flagged by the community that has demonstrated it's willingness to do so when availed the tools in the code to do so. $350/day would go a long ways to ending opinion flagging that has cost us >1M users already, and created a stench of outrage against that injudicial censorship in the cryptosphere. That can be reversed, and free speech empowered, by coding proper tools for the community to protect itself, and funding @freezepeach to oppose opinion flagging - or Hive is doomed by it's prior (and present) flaggotry, because that reeking stench of censorship will not wash off.
I don't think Hive is doomed, because even the worst stench will wash away when time and the application of cleansing is applied, and people are suffering the censorship across the social mediascape more than ever. HW is the reason people keep trying to use web2 platforms, instead of flocking to Hive to be rewarded for speaking forthrightly. Social media has become the largest financial sector of the IRL markets in the world. Hive has been extremely poorly executed to perform so dismally in a market so obviously profitable and malevolently censored. We have a rhetorical foundation to directly reward creators for their forthright content that clearly has the ability to be extremely financially rewarding if executed properly, but instead has performed worse than the most oppressive Big Social platforms. It has performed worse than them by BEING worse than them for creators, and HW opinion flagging is what is worse.
Fund @freezepeach instead of HW, and allow the community to handle it's business censoring spam, scams, and plagiarism, as it has clearly proved it is capable of doing when it suppressed the bidbots. While there are still at least one bidbot in operation today, it is no longer a threat to the whole community, while HW has shown to be worse, and more insidious threat by crushing forthright speakers and causing them to abandon the platform. HW is so malignant that Fakebook and Twatter are better prospects, and that is a horrible fact of the misapplication of funds and code on Hive today.
you quote me talking about VOLUNTARY PEOPLE
NOT Hivewatchers
and then talk about the money Hivewatchers gets..
I am also much for funding @freezepeach
HW claims to be voluntary, just as you do, and just as Marky does.
I dunno who is in HW other than Guilty, and I am baffled why Guilty tolerates the opinion flagging HW executes. There must be a reason, but I am not going to speculate about his specific motivations, because I can't think of any potentially good ones and I don't want to falsely accuse anyone of bad actions.
There are scammers on social media platforms, and censorship is necessary to eliminate their profit motive. Censorship also works on spammers, and plagiarists. It also crushes ordinary people that post on Hive and don't do spam, scams, or plagiarism. DV's are censorship. That's why they work.
The censorship mechanism on Hive should not be applicable to opinions.
As for funding @freezepeach, @r0nd0n quit actively running it, and I know he is a busy and hardworking guy, so I can't fault him for it. He did the best he could for very little reward, and I admire him very much. However, @freezepeach isn't doing anything anymore, so I donate 1/4 of my author rewards to creators that are being censored for no good reason. You could do that too. If you don't know anyone that is being flagged without ceasing for their original content, I can give you a list. It evolves because most people just can't stay on it and quit posting to earn flags. The last creator that fell off that list is @baah, who reamed me a new one more often than he agreed with me, and I have no idea why he quit posting because I don't think he likes me very much and he doesn't keep me apprised of his reasons for doing things. But there are still folks posting against the constant pressure of censorship flags on every post and comment they make, and if just a few of us kicked them down 5% of our author rewards - which can't be flagged away - I think we could end the censorship ring that is suppressing free speech on Hive.
The censors do it for money, so they don't want to spend much censoring because that cuts into their profits. I am clearly not enough financial power to stop them, so more folks are necessary for the opposition to their opinion flagging to be successful. Regardless, I will continue to do it on principle, because that matters a whole lot more to me than a couple HBD.
Let me know if you want a list of folks that are being censored and should be supported with a cut of author rewards that can't be flagged away.
after you defending fascists that want to hunt me out of my country
and talking shit about me
I dont give a flying fuck
stuff it up ur ass
goodbye
I can understand that @baah did not like you
Yet I supported him because he posted factual information. That's the difference between you and him. While he ranted from time to time, he also produced valuable content.
Yeah, you lying piece of shit, that's why you upvoted me and wrote all those comments
to now lie and tell me the opposite
You fascist have achieved what you want: I will leave
you projecting piece of shit do not even talk with or against me
you talk about random stuff that has nothing to do with me
so shut the fuck up and leave me alone
you fucking idiots do not get that defending oneself if you do not leave others alone is the most fundamental right everyone has
stupid
I had 20 notifications this morning and 14 of them were of your rants pleading to be left alone. Maybe take your own advice?
Yeah, as if I had not 10 comments of your weird nonsense projections about Hivewatchers that HAS ZERO TO DO WITH ME
You brainless weird being
You could literally do nothing and be ahead by $270/day. They deal with less than $20/day of abuse yet they asked for $350/day.
so we need more decentralized flagging again
We need a lot of things, just people need to care.
People that are flagged for their forthright speech here are given nothing to care about. When fakebook and twatter are BETTER THAN HIVE for speaking objectionable opinions on, Hive has failed miserably to promote free speech.
Free speech is infinitely more valuable than money. Push it up. Pushing spam, scams, and plagiarism down isn't all we need to do. We need criticism, even if it's criticizing us, because that's how we can learn how to be better than we have been. Even if it's wrong, it isn't spam, scams, or plagiarism and deserves protection.
People care when they have a reason to care. If all they can get for posting is $.30, why should they care? Give forthright speech a reason to care.
THIS
yeah, so just abandoning anti-abuse and not more people joining anti-abuse efforts (not caring) wont bring us any further
I downvote more abuse than they do on a daily basis. There is a handful of other people doing some as well, but largely most people don't want to be involved or risk losing upvotes.
Most people didn't amass fortunes running bidbots. I dunno much about backdoor deals, but you and wolfie joined the oligarchy when the bidbots folded, so something was arranged off chain.
That being said, I have expressed my opinion to you without restraint, and you have not flagged me for it, which I respect. I donate 1/4 of my author rewards to support authors that are being permanently opinion flagged, and if you promoted free speech with your phat bags a lot fewer of the content creators that eventually give up fighting that financial censorship would give up.
I zealously promote free speech - and particularly OBJECTIONABLE speech - and hope you will too. Hive has not succeeded in competition with blatantly censored web2 platforms because it does not protect free speech, which you and other oligarchs could do. I can only conjecture that were Hive to become a profitable investment legacy financial players would buy up tokens and take power in the plutocratic governance model Hive employs, and you and your mates don't want to lose your pond you're the big fish in today.
Perhaps you could set me straight if I'm wrong.
However, whether you even deign to notice I exist or not, you could defend creators that are opinion flagged, like @por500bolos, who adamantly refuses to be flagged off the platform. Hive NEEDS forthright speech and CRITICISM to succeed.
Please defend and promote Hive by defending objectionable/critical free speech and countering opinion flags.
Thank you.
There's more than mere pandering at stake. People get flagged into oblivion. Opinion flags are the stench of death on Hive that permeates the entire cryptosphere. Flags should be limited to actual abuse, not objectionable opinions. If we don't defend objectionable speech we will have only virtue signaling - and that doesn't merit any defense whatsoever.
I also do not like Hivewatchers
I am always downvoting when I see something, since years
I have also already witnessed Hivewatchers condemning people for wrong
Still, if we just abandon (like all the comments under your post seems to want) - we still need some kind of alternative.
maybe revive HiveFlagRewards? redistribute the HBD that go to Hivewatchers currently to HiveFlagRewards ?
Maybe the code leaving potential abuse fighters vulnerable to opinion flags is the actual problem. People getting flagged for criticizing whales have a damn good reason not to criticize whales.
The code is the problem, because it allows opinion flagging. Not until the oligarchy cut a deal with Marky and Wolfie did the bidbots end (mostly), and that reveals the real problem is plutocracy, not whether people care. People flagged into penury can't afford to care.
HERE HERE