Total waste of money.
They drive away good users in their pursuit of policing.
Badly operated.
Bad communication.
Terrible people skills.
Total waste of money.
At $350 per day we could be running marketing campaigns.
Advertising.
Community contests.
so what are you ideas on how the community does anti-abuse without hivewatchers?
will you do it?
it is just a handful voluntary people - the same since half a decade - who contribute their free time for hive anti-abuse (even countered harmful flags from flag wars @freezepeach) - and got no payment
we also do not like Hivewatchers, but they at least do something, where the big community does not care for itself..
If it's voluntary why is it costing $350 a day??? Where is the money going.
I have no problem with countering abuse but i've seen HW drive away regular users by targeting them with downvotes for stupid reasons.
No explanation, no warning and no talking to them.
A proper set up would have an account with delegated HP for downvotes.
A specific reporting structure with a list of offences. Standardized so it's clear when and why a person is infringing on the community.
Report an infringement to the team.
First a friendly warning and show them where the problem lies.
If still breaking guidelines a small downvote maybe 10% of the reward.
If persistent offending then increase the downvote but a clear and specific structure on how it would work with open channels of communication.
I have no problem with a person being paid to run a service like this but it needs to be ran as a proper full time service and professionally done not just throwing downvotes around the place and refusing to interact with people in a proper way.
I've been here 7 years myself and have seen a lot over that time. I was targeted by whales back in the early days and almost driven off the platform with downvotes. They should be used sparingly and only for real abuse. Downvotes are harmful and have driven away a lot of users over the past 7 years.
It is voluntary, cuz we (and you if you voluntarily join countering abuse) dont earn anything.
We also get none of the 350$ a day for Hivewatchers ("we" is just decentralized voluntary community members) but if you want to stop Hivewatchers, we need more voluntary help
Not all transactions are onchain. There is too much obfuscation of how HW applies it's funding. There are too many good posters that are oppressed without cessation, literally 1M users driven from the platform since I've been here!
The influence of affluence has derailed HW's mission. Sketchy flags are flown against creators that post things objectionable to oligarchs on Hive, despite those posts not being spam, scams, or plagiarism. Bizarrely, when discussing posters chased off, claims are made that users don't promote Hive on other platforms, but people that post here what they also post elsewhere HW calls that plagiarism. That is exactly bass ackwards, as censorial platforms like Fakebook and Twatter send people looking for alternatives and posting their content to lots of platforms, Hive censors them instead of avails them a safe and rewarding place to post it.
I am confident that backdoor payments off chain are rewarding the more blatant opinion flagging HW continues - for years - on users that may have reposted their OWN CONTENT, or for some other excuse, despite those posters posting original content here. I donate a percentage of my author rewards to several of them, but I have to keep moving to new ones as they give up and quit posting here.
HW is flagging content creators off the platform, and nothing is worse for Hive as a community of content creators. Funding for flagging should be eliminated, and funding - as I am doing by donating 1/4 of my author rewards to flagged authors - should be promoting free speech improperly flagged instead. Hive needs to build it's community, not flag it until the creators find Twatter and Fakebook preferable. The bizarre humiliation ritual people are forced to undergo to get HW off their back is utterly unacceptable. It is blatantly malevolent. There are innumerable similar features of HW practices, and the certainty of off chain encomiums paying for opinion flags has tainted Hive with a stench that will take years to wash off when we do start defending free speech instead of flagging objectionable speech into the dust.
Spam, scams, and plagiarism should be met with appropriate response FROM THE COMMUNITY which has been empowered to defend itself. The funding availed HW should be DEFENDING free speech instead of crushing it.
I fight against abuse when and where i see it.
Not silly stuff or newbies making mistakes.
I will flag if i see plagiarized posts or straight up circle voting.
I'm happy to help hive in anyway possible to weed out users abusing the system or hurting our community but not flagging for the sake of it.
If nobody is getting the $290 per day then where is this funding going to??
If nobody is getting the $290 per day then where is this funding going to??
I'm just a guy like you..
I'd also prefer abolishing HW - it's not a new discussion
but I am against those newly wanting to abolish it since only a few days, cuz their farming sheme got busted by HW
It would be probably better to check up on the actual proposal and discover a bit about the HW's actual activity. It is 290/day not 350/day.
For the marketing campaign, there is already a proposal running called "Value Plan".
If you have marketing ideas, you are welcome to forward them to @guityparties.
Regarding, themarkymark.
He has considered himself a Hive Blockchain martyr who has always done all the abuse fighting himself (that is limited to triggering his downvote bot on some accounts to auto-clear rewards on day 6) while no one else did any abuse fighting. At the same time, he has never done a single investigation on a single post to look for plagiarism, identity theft, etc.
He has been running the same tape "Steemcleaners/Hivewatchers do not deserve anything and I do all abuse fighting" since 2016. Our project/proposal is not the only one. He attacks all proposals. Maybe it's because he tried a proposal once and it never got a pass.
Since 2016, we have already explained in detail to him multiple times what tasks abuse fighting constitutes. The last time was in January.
Regardless of $290 or $350 where is that funding going to and why would you need $105K per year to downvote a few posts???
I've reread your proposal and it's vague. Without clear guidelines, instructions or help for people wanting to deal with your team. The website has not been developed and overall it's a small group of people exerting control over the community as it sees fit often to the detriment of that same community.
Where is the breakdown of these costs.
Why is there no clear list of infringements and related penalties.
Why is there no proper structure for reporting, disputing and process.
Where is the breakdown of value saved for the community as you claim.
Where is the cost of all the decent users that have been driven away by your downvotes.
Just zeroing rewards from users is not helping the platform or it's community.
We only have about 5000 active bloggers so these costs are absurd and this set up is not working for the majority of the community. The only reason that it has funding is due to @smooth and @blocktrades voting it.
I don't care about themarkymark. I'm not a huge fan of his. He has done both good and bad for hive but i agree with him on this current topic and have never been afraid to speak my mind. It's not my first year on hive and i've seen the damage that flagging has done over those years setting us back years in terms of user growth and retention.
The only reason that it has funding is due to @smooth and @blocktrades voting it.
This is false. There are many other voters. If I unvoted it, for example, it would still be funded (which would not be the case if @blocktrades were the only remaining vote).
Furthermore, if either or both of us changed our vote, there is no way to know how other stakeholders might respond by also changing their votes, potentially changing the outcome yet again.
Your conception of how DHF voting works is a bit off.
Firstly, good to see you still around. Been a long time since i saw your name pop up in a comment section.
Fair enough. Your 6m (inc proxy) wouldn't drop it below the return proposal.
I do know how it works and i did say due to you both supporting it.
But blocktrades 23M and your 6M is roughly 80% of the support for the proposal from just two accounts. Not very reflective of community or decentralized.
Now i can't predict the outcomes but if you both stopped supporting it then it's hard to see the proposal getting over the return limit.
It would be probably better to check up on the actual proposal and discover a bit about the HW's actual activity. It is 290/day not 350/day.
You originally asked and got paid $350/day (blindly and immediately, even before you had a single comment on your proposal) until enough people made a stink about it and you reduced it to keep the gravy train going.
Since 2017, when I joined the community, more than 1M accounts have joined and began posting and then been flagged off the platform. HW was not useful against the bidbots, but the community itself got rid of them when enabled to do so by tweaking DV code. Rather than fund an institution that can be - and obviously has been - corrupted to profit from attacking that ~1M users and censoring their speech on Hive, the community itself is competent to protect itself when availed the tools, as the demise of bidbots, that threatened to utterly overwhelm the platform at one point, reveals.
HW has become a tool of oppression, of censorship profiteering, and has proven the mechanism of funding is incapable of withstanding corruption and abuse. You cannot call the people of HW 'voluntary' when they're getting $350/day, which would be better spent to oppose censorship than cause it.
It is not factually correct to say the 'big community' does not care for itself. The reduction of the influence of the bidbots has proved the community does care for itself when armed to do so. The problem is that venal profiteers rise to power in a plutocracy, and Hive is a pure plutocracy in which several of the most egregious bidbotters have become entrenched in the oligarchy of top witnesses.
The solution is to fund @freezepeach and allow spam, scams, and plagiarists to be flagged by the community that has demonstrated it's willingness to do so when availed the tools in the code to do so. $350/day would go a long ways to ending opinion flagging that has cost us >1M users already, and created a stench of outrage against that injudicial censorship in the cryptosphere. That can be reversed, and free speech empowered, by coding proper tools for the community to protect itself, and funding @freezepeach to oppose opinion flagging - or Hive is doomed by it's prior (and present) flaggotry, because that reeking stench of censorship will not wash off.
I don't think Hive is doomed, because even the worst stench will wash away when time and the application of cleansing is applied, and people are suffering the censorship across the social mediascape more than ever. HW is the reason people keep trying to use web2 platforms, instead of flocking to Hive to be rewarded for speaking forthrightly. Social media has become the largest financial sector of the IRL markets in the world. Hive has been extremely poorly executed to perform so dismally in a market so obviously profitable and malevolently censored. We have a rhetorical foundation to directly reward creators for their forthright content that clearly has the ability to be extremely financially rewarding if executed properly, but instead has performed worse than the most oppressive Big Social platforms. It has performed worse than them by BEING worse than them for creators, and HW opinion flagging is what is worse.
Fund @freezepeach instead of HW, and allow the community to handle it's business censoring spam, scams, and plagiarism, as it has clearly proved it is capable of doing when it suppressed the bidbots. While there are still at least one bidbot in operation today, it is no longer a threat to the whole community, while HW has shown to be worse, and more insidious threat by crushing forthright speakers and causing them to abandon the platform. HW is so malignant that Fakebook and Twatter are better prospects, and that is a horrible fact of the misapplication of funds and code on Hive today.
HW claims to be voluntary, just as you do, and just as Marky does.
I dunno who is in HW other than Guilty, and I am baffled why Guilty tolerates the opinion flagging HW executes. There must be a reason, but I am not going to speculate about his specific motivations, because I can't think of any potentially good ones and I don't want to falsely accuse anyone of bad actions.
There are scammers on social media platforms, and censorship is necessary to eliminate their profit motive. Censorship also works on spammers, and plagiarists. It also crushes ordinary people that post on Hive and don't do spam, scams, or plagiarism. DV's are censorship. That's why they work.
The censorship mechanism on Hive should not be applicable to opinions.
As for funding @freezepeach, @r0nd0n quit actively running it, and I know he is a busy and hardworking guy, so I can't fault him for it. He did the best he could for very little reward, and I admire him very much. However, @freezepeach isn't doing anything anymore, so I donate 1/4 of my author rewards to creators that are being censored for no good reason. You could do that too. If you don't know anyone that is being flagged without ceasing for their original content, I can give you a list. It evolves because most people just can't stay on it and quit posting to earn flags. The last creator that fell off that list is @baah, who reamed me a new one more often than he agreed with me, and I have no idea why he quit posting because I don't think he likes me very much and he doesn't keep me apprised of his reasons for doing things. But there are still folks posting against the constant pressure of censorship flags on every post and comment they make, and if just a few of us kicked them down 5% of our author rewards - which can't be flagged away - I think we could end the censorship ring that is suppressing free speech on Hive.
The censors do it for money, so they don't want to spend much censoring because that cuts into their profits. I am clearly not enough financial power to stop them, so more folks are necessary for the opposition to their opinion flagging to be successful. Regardless, I will continue to do it on principle, because that matters a whole lot more to me than a couple HBD.
Let me know if you want a list of folks that are being censored and should be supported with a cut of author rewards that can't be flagged away.
Yet I supported him because he posted factual information. That's the difference between you and him. While he ranted from time to time, he also produced valuable content.
People that are flagged for their forthright speech here are given nothing to care about. When fakebook and twatter are BETTER THAN HIVE for speaking objectionable opinions on, Hive has failed miserably to promote free speech.
Free speech is infinitely more valuable than money. Push it up. Pushing spam, scams, and plagiarism down isn't all we need to do. We need criticism, even if it's criticizing us, because that's how we can learn how to be better than we have been. Even if it's wrong, it isn't spam, scams, or plagiarism and deserves protection.
People care when they have a reason to care. If all they can get for posting is $.30, why should they care? Give forthright speech a reason to care.
yeah, so just abandoning anti-abuse and not more people joining anti-abuse efforts (not caring) wont bring us any further
I downvote more abuse than they do on a daily basis. There is a handful of other people doing some as well, but largely most people don't want to be involved or risk losing upvotes.
Maybe the code leaving potential abuse fighters vulnerable to opinion flags is the actual problem. People getting flagged for criticizing whales have a damn good reason not to criticize whales.
The code is the problem, because it allows opinion flagging. Not until the oligarchy cut a deal with Marky and Wolfie did the bidbots end (mostly), and that reveals the real problem is plutocracy, not whether people care. People flagged into penury can't afford to care.
Of more concern to me is that the definition of abuse keeps expanding, while with each expansion they claim it was always in the definition and always part of their scope.
The more the definition of abuse is expanded, the more it gets into areas that should be up to broader consensus, not a centrally funded effort. And the more users and communities are alienated.
It is my opinion that the lost market value from decent people leaving Hive and selling out their holdings exceeds the 'saved' value from HW's abuse elimination by orders of magnitude.
The definition is whatever they feel like for the day. They refuse to do anything about the 100 accounts grampo farms with like cleangirl. Also remember they were one of the largest self vote abusers before they got their golden ticket by upvoting 60-90 comments a day for $1-2 each while downvoting people who did the same.
Hive Watchers had been already downvoting "cleangirl" account months before your "buildawhale" account started downvoting it.
The same with this group ("buildawhale started DV-ing a few of them):
alena-deryabina
alexwo
beardmen
cwoong
dasunkwo
estarda
flodareltih
fozzy
francuzzz
goshy
huanan
ien
imaran
immortal8000
iotman
logmen
pixelpenguin
qazaq
sobaken763
wekin
yarrik
Since we noticed that "buildawhale" started downvotuing some of them on day 6, we stopped downvoting those accounts downvoted by "buildawhale".
I was going to say hard to say with a deterrence effect, but then seeing 12 HBD being sent to them hourly ( https://peakd.com/@hivewatchers/wallet) from the hive fundation , with very little hive power, and then dumping it into a savings on a dummy account with $77k HBD (https://peakd.com/@nuttin/wallet ) I think it is obviously no at this point.
I think they can be self sustaining without needing to be subsidized further and the training wheels can be taken off. Assuming they own the nuttin account, and the apr is 20%, that's still 42 hbd a day. If they continue to get 290hbd a day and the 42 from interest, then this time next year, it could be 110 hbd a day in interest.
In closing:
1.) Much better case for delegating HP or RC to projects than giving hbd. The foundation gets to keep its resources, and the dev can still use the HP/RC as needed.
2.) I think the 20% apr is ridiculous myself; that it is a ticking time bomb.
I fail to see how. That barely keeps pace with inflation, IMHO. In fact, I don't think it does. Better minds than mine, to wit Edicted, have thoroughly detailed why 20% interest on HBD savings are not any kind of threat to Hive, and you could have a look at his catalog to see his posts about it.
However, I agree with the statements you make about HW. Frankly, as long as they're opinion flagging I reckon they're Hive's enemy that is preventing the price of Hive from mooning. Without free speech, Hive is without value whatsoever. Whales flagging creators for their opinions reeks worse than skunkwater, and we should be supporting the victims of that censorship as I do with donations that cannot be flagged away so that the censors give up.
I, and I'm sure you also, want Hive to be a better platform for free speech than fakebook or twatter, that egregiously censor. Hive isn't a better platform for free speech or it would eclipse those platforms, and the only reason it isn't is opinion flags like those HW flies on content creators that aren't spammers, scammers, or plagiarists.
Except when they do stuff off chain, which bad actors with above room temperature IQ will do.
This is why HW uses Discord to arrange the humiliation ritual people have to endure to get off the blacklist. Bad actors do what bad actors do, and HW does this off chain so you can't see it.
If someone is policing the community it should be done by Germans. We have a lot of instinct for order and justice. Most likely the whole thing would get hijacked by some Austrian guy again tho...
Ordnung is not the basis for freedom, but rather Austrian jackboot fetishists. There does need to be order, but rather the order of the Goths than Romans. Freedom of speech has created the longest enduring societies the world has ever seen, starting millennia ago with the expansion of the Yamnaya that burst out of the steppes by inventing dairy and the economic advantage that provided.
Such invention is only facilitated by free speech, and demonstrates that it is free speech that is far more valuable than mere money.
You mistake what condemns you. It isn't that you have free speech. It's that you are malevolent.
"stupid asshole"
By your judgment you are judged. You will not find such vile insults in any of my posts or comments, so I do not merit condemnation. You condemn yourself.
Ja, setzt euch doch bitte auch mal mit für Anti-Abuse ein... (finanziell und zeitlich)
Sehe nur die Selben Leute, welche sich seit immer (sogar noch zu Steem Zeiten) für Anti-Abuse einsetzen.
Würdet ihr euch auch mal einsetze, von eurer freien Zeit und mit euren HP - dann bräuchten wir gar keine Hivewatchers extra zahlen (wir Anti-Abuse Leute haben auch so unsere Probleme mit denen seit Jahren, können es aber auch nicht ändern - sind halt zu wenige)
Ihr wollt Dezentralität jedoch nichts dafür machen, "Gewinne" (Müll Karten & Tokens) jedoch nicht mal für ordentliche Posts Mühe machen - macht sogar noch bei Spam/ jahrelangen Aussaugen der Plattform mit, anstatt sich mal selbst anzustrengen, auf Almosen Gewinne hoffen?
Und wäre es dem Denno wirklich um Unterstützung (also er unterstützt andere) gegangen, würde er sich nicht sofort verabschieden, nachdem nach JAHREN mal ein paar überbewertete "Rewards" ausfallen ^^^^
Er braucht doch keine Rewards um mit seiner HP zu unterstützen ? Hat doch bereits selbst genug bekommen.
Wird Zeit dass sich die Rewards wirklich auf mehr kleinere Accounts (wenn sie sich nun anstrengen, ihre Chance sehen statt rumzuheulen) aufteilen.
anstatt sich mal selbst anzustrengen, auf Almosen Gewinne hoffen?
Beim Thema Almosen solltest du ganz leise sein. Ich hab dir mal 10 HBD geschickt als ich einen Post von dir gelesen hab in dem du um Geld gebeten hast, obwohl ich dich damals so wie jetzt kaum kenne/kannte. Als nächsten Post durfte ich dann eine Beschwerde lesen, dass zu wenig Leute gespendet haben.
wie wäre es, alle selbstvotes, alle curation trails und alles was zum betrug nutzbar ist ab zu schaffen? dann bleibt schon mal nur noch spam und doppelaccounts! aber wer entscheidet was spam ist? ein gewinnspiel was täglich läuft, ist kein spam. wenn es anderen usern spaß macht daran teil zu nehmen und sie freiwillig voten, ist es doch genau das, was hier gefördert werden sollte . wenn der user die votes dazu nutzt, anderen zu helfen, was man ja ganz einfach nachvollziehen kann, so nutzt er weder etwas zum eigenen vorteil, noch betrügt. punkt! und noch etwas. wer beleidigt, anstatt sachlich zu diskutieren, ist immer im unrecht ;-) hier hat sich nämlich langsam eine moralpolizei entwickelt, die entgegen der community handelt, denn wenn ein paar wenige entscheiden, was richtig und falsch ist, dann sind wir beim kommunismus angelangt.
erkläre mir, wo der unterschied bei mir liegt. ob ich auf youtube, oder twitch, oder dlive, oder vimm meinen stream veröffentliche und beim dem "beitrag" user freiwillig voten können. warum wird mir dann eigennutz vorgeworden, obwohl ich noch nie einen cent aus hive abgehoben habe und zumindest per fanbase täglich mehrere votes an andere verteile... wieso kann einer darüber entscheiden, dass das unrecht ist und alles auf 0 voten? wieso muss ich auf seinen willen hin bei anderen kommentieren, obwohl ich das überhaupt nicht möchte, da ich lieber mit usern im stream rede! mit welchem recht? und seine letzten worte waren, ihm gefällt mein content nicht... mir gefällt seiner auch nicht, deswegen vote ich aber niht auf 0 unabhängig davon, dass ich das aufgrund meines accounts ja auch nicht kann. das ist nichts anderes als meinungsdiktatur und machtausspielung.
Yes, why don't you join us in the effort for anti-abuse... (financially and in terms of time)
I only see the same people who have always (even in Steem times) contributed to anti-abuse.
If you would also use your free time and your HP - then we wouldn't have to pay extra for hivewatchers (we anti-abuse people have also had our problems with them for years, but we can't change it either - there are just too few of us -> so a need for hivewatchers).
You don't want to do anything for decentralisation, but you don't even want to make an effort for proper posts - you even participate in spam/years of sucking the platform dry instead of making an effort yourselves, hoping for little crap "wins"?
And if Denno was really interested in support (i.e. he supports others), he wouldn't immediately say goodbye after a few overvalued "rewards" are cancelled after YEARS ^^^^
He doesn't need rewards to support others with his HP? He's already got enough himself.
It's about time that the rewards are really distributed to more smaller accounts (if they make an effort and see their chance instead of whining now).
well you critized something else so let me respond to that.
I dont mind organisation. I think well organising something and giving people a payment or reward for their effort is not a bad thing. Organsiation is not in conflict with decentralisation and not even anarchism itself - at least not on a principle level.
Im also not against the Wild West solution, where everybody flags and even common folks downvote stuff they think is overrated/overpayed. I would make a morning routine out of downvoting 90% of the trending page and I would have a jolly time doing so. Even though I actually think this would be the best solution Im surely not the one who will try to make it trend.
It is clear that exactly such elements have arisen to take advantage of the funding availed HW, and are harming the Hive community profitably. Wherever governance is undertaken, such malign actors seek to gain whatever power and wealth is expended for their own aggrandizement, not just on Hive, but everywhere and always.
HW needs to go. It is demonstrable that just replacing bad apples will not make the barrel rotten apple proof. As long as there's an apple barrel, rotten apples will lie and cheat to spoil it. I'm confident that backdoor deals are passing funds unseen to advance goals of bad actors, and the visible financial expenditures for HW are but part of the actual sums involved, as graft is a constant hazard of corruptible institutions.
Better for the community and it's rightful forthright expression of it's concerns and exposure of hazards we need to be informed of would be a mechanism to support posts and posters that are wrongfully flagged, IMHO. Profiteers gain no benefit from strengthening the community against such Mammon Hunters, but rather from institutions like HW that attack the community and prey on our number. We should cut them off and stop funding attacks on us, and instead fund armor against their attacks on us that profiteering plutocrats constantly seek to profitably employ to take our wealth for themselves.
When observing actual hives in nature, there are no bees running around destroying the comb and taking the honey. The hive builds the comb, and the honey provides for their entire community. That is the kind of work that should be funded, not destruction of free speech, but protection of it.
I completely agree. I do not and never have autovoted, or used bots to follow trails, or post comments. This is social media, and people are society. People need to be interacting with people here.
I think that system is too automated. I see too many cases of a person doing one sketchy thing and then get rewarded with a lifetime of downvotes, even months after having changed their act. I really don't feel that the cost to the DHF is in proportion to the benefits delivered.
I've seen and heard of enough cases where non-abusive behavior or simple mistakes were crushed by HW, especially for new accounts, to vote NO on this poll.
🤔 😂😂😂🤣🤣 please just stay away and don't comment on my post's talking shit it's not going to work I'm not a kid I'm a grown man with kid's tell Ab Steve Gina and blocktrades I said hello 👋🏾
But, we can code it how we want it. We don't have to replicate plutocracy. If we make Hive right, we will remake IRL, too. Change is afoot, and the world is evolving economically. We can take the bull by the horns, or do what we're doing, which is getting gored.
This is a matter I have struggled with for a long time. Before @ned did us dirty he gave several talks on how to use oracles and 1a1v to eliminate bots, which greatly encouraged me at the time. There are several identity mechanisms that have been proposed claiming to be able to prove an account is run by a single human being, to identify that single human such that they cannot have multiple accounts, and as far as 1a1v on Hive, I am not willing to limit such democratic voting by any other metric than that.
I particularly find plutocracy vexing, despite knowing that merely having money doesn't establish one is a vile thief (I only know this because I have good friends that are less poor than me). There are too many examples of highly staked persons with execrable moral and ethical standards, insert your favorite villains here. However, in fact folks with substantial stake have a lot of capability to impact matters, and obvious reasons to be extremely dedicated to ensuring things aren't off the chain - or, conversely, to skew things in their favor. It seems then that folks with substantial stake have more basis for influencing matters than me, who has little stake to risk.
This is true even in non-monetary economies, such as the Potlatch economies of the PNW natives in which a chief is availed the authority to parcel out resources to the tribe. I can but console myself that I cannot be expected to answer your question definitively, but that doesn't resolve the matter either.
There are several identity mechanisms that have been proposed claiming to be able to prove an account is run by a single human being, to identify that single human such that they cannot have multiple accounts, and as far as 1a1v on Hive, I am not willing to limit such democratic voting by any other metric than that.
I was addressing exactly this issue years ago with one of the witnesses, and was told that such identifying function was either not doable or could be tricked, as well. I am not sure any more what exactly was said but the overall message was "no".
I am not holding out much hope, TBQH. However I get what I came here for every time I come here, which is forthright speech from people that I can learn from. I didn't come here for money. I came here for free speech. That hasn't been completely eradicated here, yet.
Saying anything doesn't work in 'their' favor.
Taking a position might cost 'them' politically.
'They' also think of us as 'them'.
This kind of thinking doesn't help.
There is less butter on 'our' side of the bread.
For now.
'They' should be expected to act as expected, by the one with the most butter.
Crapitalism makes 'us' 'all' whores.
Living under the bridge is not all that attractive when you can sell something as cheap as your soul.
Hey Steemcleaners, why are you flagging this comment? You have been flagging this author for YEARS, despite he posts original content DAILY.
You, Steemcleaners, are the problem that has kept Hive from outcompeting Fakebook and Twatter by rewarding content creators such as @por500bolos, because you chase them off the platform.
That account is just what HW uses when they don't have a justified reason to downvote anything.
It pays to have idiots delegate and die off somewhere so they get to keep the free stake. But, don't you dare ask for delegations expiring like the way witness votes do.
I do not autovote, delegate my stake, or in any way fail to personally exercise my contributions to the community. If this is a social media platform, society - us - needs to be interacting, not bots. That being said, I still get autovotes from my good friends that have died. I would rather get belittled and scathingly criticized by @stevescoins than autovoted though. I miss him.
Automation needs to be on timers, and some provision needs to be made so that people's assets can be delivered to their heirs upon their demise. I have to confess that I am touched every time I review my upvotes and see my friend there. It's weird how automation is impacting our interactions nowadays. Delegations certainly need to expire. You're absolutely right.
No, that is a total waste. Hivewatchers are the boil of the platform. Instead of punishing their users, take the money and distribute it to really good contributions and ideas that also advance the platform.
Having centralized anti-abuse is not all bad, imo.
The question becomes is it profitable, both for the chain to redistribute it and the abusers.
Clearly the abusers are getting what they need, or they wouldn't do it.
So, now the question is how much total abuse is happening.
I got no problem financing some anti-abuse efforts but the the big picture is not being adequately illustrated.
How much abuse is happening outside trending?
Nobody can do anything about that abuse, at this point.
I don't think tying hw's compensation to the amount of redistribution is a good idea, and if the amount of abuse doesn't rise to the costs involved with centralized overhead, then some median would have to be arrived at by 'the community'.
Or, the plutocracy can decree whatever because they hodl the power.
That has 'worked' up to now because 'the community' has failed to reach an organizational power level adequate to change things.
I'd say if you don't like how hw's is doing it, then offer a viable alternative.
Until the community is ready to step up, organize, and replace the good that hw's does, I'd vote for keeping them.
Until 'the community' is ready to step up and stop the trending abuse, this is what we get, continued centralization of power.
"...the plutocracy can decree whatever because they hodl the power."
The Hive code needs to value free speech above all else, and deprecate mere financial concerns. Most of all, it needs to not be a pure plutocracy, because IRL is proof of how that turns out.
@jarvie@asgarth can we get subscriptions to posts, ie allow notifications of comments by others on posts we opt to follow?
It's too easy to forget to come back two days later to see what other comments have come in, let alone comments that come in much later.
This feature would increase engagement, imo.
I do think that those who are getting proposal funding need to be accountable and justify what they get. There is no breakdown here. Hosting a site and some services will not be that expensive, but if people are working full time on this then they may expect to be paid. The proposal implies that they get something for their time.
I have seen so many complaints about HW, but then most people will not take any action against abuse. I think it would be much worse without HW or something similar. They have to be fair in how they treat people. We will get lots of people desperate to make money who get bad advice on how to do it here. I would rather see them guided to better behaviour than driven away as that leads to them spreading bad vibes. There are cases of organised abuse that can be tricky to track down. If we had a massive influx of users then things could quickly ramp up.
I've been involved in some other anti-abuse, but it can lead to threats and so most people stay anonymous. I have talked to HW people and they are not the power-crazed monsters that some portray them as. I can understand if they get stressed out. I know there are plenty of feuds between various Hivers that get pretty heated.
There is obvious an image problem with HW and we need to find compromises to improve that. The proposal funding needs to go where it does the most good, but that is really determined by the largest accounts. We have to find the right balance so that Hive can actually grow. Driving away new users can harm us all and the whales have the most to lose.
I would rather see them guided to better behaviour than driven away as that leads to them spreading bad vibes.
All too true, and happened literally a million times already.
they are not the power-crazed monsters that some portray them as.
I have seen some screenshots from their discord that suggest otherwise. Absolutely reprehensible behaviour towards people that seek off the blacklist, and concede they will reform their ways.
Personally, I reckon they should conduct their business on chain, and not on discord. Hive business is not discord's, and discord is a malevolent surveillance device, and HW business should be on chain where everyone can see how they treat folks.
There is obvious an image problem with HW
It's not just an image. They opinion flag. It's utterly contrary to the purpose of Hive. They don't need to compromise. They need to quit censoring free speech and stick to their baileywick of censoring spam, scams, and plagiarism. They also should not be profiteering by self voting with funds from Hive. That's just scammy.
There are some nasty people around here, but also a lot who really care about Hive. Some will use their power to attack others. I just think that it's not as black and white as some make out.
The main reason the proposal was raised like 300% was for a dev to redo their site, which as far as I have seen hasn't been done and it still doesn't even work. Their site is stupid simple too. Doesn't require $350/day, nor does fighting less than $20/day in abuse.
Yeah, the site has not changed in ages and is not great. As I understand it proposals are a binary thing so they either get the requested funding or not. Maybe they should have separate ones for running costs and for new developments.
Geld regiert die Welt, auch hier bei #Hive.
Was bewirken schon 100 Upvotes mit 0,001 HP gegen einen Upvote mit 5, 6 oder 10 HP. Hier ist es eben die Hivepower, die Macht verleiht. Sieht jeder an seinen Postings und Upvotes. Und die großen Fische interessieren sich wohl nicht so sehr dafür, was die @hivewatchers so machen, bzw. nicht machen.
Ja, Sozialismus haben wir hier auf jeden Fall nicht.
Zum Glück.
Geld ist übrigens auch nicht böse, vor allem nicht wenn es nicht mehr ein Monopol von unseren Erzfeinden gibt, diese es nicht mehr willkürlich für Krieg inflationieren können und es vor allem einen Wettbewerb für das beste Geld gibt.
Wünsche dir alles Beste. Viel Erfolg beim Lernen.
Hivewatchers ist schon lange ein Problem. Doch die Community interessiert sich eben nicht dafür sich selbst für besseren Anti-Abuse einzusetzen.
Einfach nur jeden Anti-Abuse abzuschaffen und sich weiterhin um nichts kümmern (wie ihr alle es hier scheinbar wollt) wäre der sofortige Tod der Plattform (willkommen Scammer, bye Hive)
Funny thing, before they got their funding they were abusing more than anyone else self voting 60-90 comments a day for $1-2 while flagging others for doing the same thing for a couple cents.
"Total waste of money. They drive away good users in their pursuit of policing.
Badly operated. Bad communication. Terrible people skills. Total waste of money."
There isn't enough information to vote on this poll. At face value, it's not worth it. However, how much abuse would the platform suffer if they didn't do their "job"? That is the real question. Can this even be quantified?
An issue that I have with the proposal from @hivewatchers is that it does not break down the costs. How much is spent on its infrastructure, labor, etc? I would like to see specifics.
I get that. In my opinion, we cannot quantify the amount of "abuse" that would happen on top of what already does. The current cost/benefit is not worth it if your numbers are accurate.
I think there is enough room for Hivewatchers to improve their proccess and better explaining to us how and why they do their thing.
I've been always against downvoting, mainly to prevent wars between users. I do agree that hivewatchers uses downvoting as a tool to clean the space, nothing more, nothing less.
I would like to see more info on how they distribute funding.
As I said above, more dialog witth community would enlighten people's view.
the only reason im on hive is to stream. but one dude doesnt like my videos so he is flagging them since 1.5 years. im not here for writing stupid things or post one picture from a tree. But im not allowed to do what i want and like. instead one guy uses his power to dictate what i have to do.... it's like communism here
They have no reasons to care, because there are no rewards for objectionable speech. Instead the Hive code creates a plutocracy by curation rewards enabling circle jerks.
Hive could create proper incentives by properly valuing free speech. Social media is the largest financial sector in the world, and it has only arisen in the last decade or so. Clearly Hive could be coded to properly take advantage of this, however, the oligarchy prefers to maintain their fangs buried into our life's blood and their power to rule the little pond.
Either Hive will revise it's code to value free speech above all else, or someone else will.
Knock knock... ERROR: Joke failed. @bpcvoter3, You need more $LOLZ to use this command. The minimum requirement is 0.0 LOLZ. You can get more $LOLZ on HE.
Total waste of money.
They drive away good users in their pursuit of policing.
Badly operated.
Bad communication.
Terrible people skills.
Total waste of money.
At $350 per day we could be running marketing campaigns.
Advertising.
Community contests.
All for less than this.
so what are you ideas on how the community does anti-abuse without hivewatchers?
will you do it?
it is just a handful voluntary people - the same since half a decade - who contribute their free time for hive anti-abuse (even countered harmful flags from flag wars @freezepeach) - and got no payment
we also do not like Hivewatchers, but they at least do something, where the big community does not care for itself..
thoughts ?
If it's voluntary why is it costing $350 a day??? Where is the money going.
I have no problem with countering abuse but i've seen HW drive away regular users by targeting them with downvotes for stupid reasons.
No explanation, no warning and no talking to them.
A proper set up would have an account with delegated HP for downvotes.
A specific reporting structure with a list of offences. Standardized so it's clear when and why a person is infringing on the community.
Report an infringement to the team.
First a friendly warning and show them where the problem lies.
If still breaking guidelines a small downvote maybe 10% of the reward.
If persistent offending then increase the downvote but a clear and specific structure on how it would work with open channels of communication.
I have no problem with a person being paid to run a service like this but it needs to be ran as a proper full time service and professionally done not just throwing downvotes around the place and refusing to interact with people in a proper way.
I've been here 7 years myself and have seen a lot over that time. I was targeted by whales back in the early days and almost driven off the platform with downvotes. They should be used sparingly and only for real abuse. Downvotes are harmful and have driven away a lot of users over the past 7 years.
It is voluntary, cuz we (and you if you voluntarily join countering abuse) dont earn anything.
We also get none of the 350$ a day for Hivewatchers ("we" is just decentralized voluntary community members) but if you want to stop Hivewatchers, we need more voluntary help
Not all transactions are onchain. There is too much obfuscation of how HW applies it's funding. There are too many good posters that are oppressed without cessation, literally 1M users driven from the platform since I've been here!
The influence of affluence has derailed HW's mission. Sketchy flags are flown against creators that post things objectionable to oligarchs on Hive, despite those posts not being spam, scams, or plagiarism. Bizarrely, when discussing posters chased off, claims are made that users don't promote Hive on other platforms, but people that post here what they also post elsewhere HW calls that plagiarism. That is exactly bass ackwards, as censorial platforms like Fakebook and Twatter send people looking for alternatives and posting their content to lots of platforms, Hive censors them instead of avails them a safe and rewarding place to post it.
I am confident that backdoor payments off chain are rewarding the more blatant opinion flagging HW continues - for years - on users that may have reposted their OWN CONTENT, or for some other excuse, despite those posters posting original content here. I donate a percentage of my author rewards to several of them, but I have to keep moving to new ones as they give up and quit posting here.
HW is flagging content creators off the platform, and nothing is worse for Hive as a community of content creators. Funding for flagging should be eliminated, and funding - as I am doing by donating 1/4 of my author rewards to flagged authors - should be promoting free speech improperly flagged instead. Hive needs to build it's community, not flag it until the creators find Twatter and Fakebook preferable. The bizarre humiliation ritual people are forced to undergo to get HW off their back is utterly unacceptable. It is blatantly malevolent. There are innumerable similar features of HW practices, and the certainty of off chain encomiums paying for opinion flags has tainted Hive with a stench that will take years to wash off when we do start defending free speech instead of flagging objectionable speech into the dust.
Spam, scams, and plagiarism should be met with appropriate response FROM THE COMMUNITY which has been empowered to defend itself. The funding availed HW should be DEFENDING free speech instead of crushing it.
I fight against abuse when and where i see it.
Not silly stuff or newbies making mistakes.
I will flag if i see plagiarized posts or straight up circle voting.
I'm happy to help hive in anyway possible to weed out users abusing the system or hurting our community but not flagging for the sake of it.
If nobody is getting the $290 per day then where is this funding going to??
Going to the wallets of the 2 supposed "Hivewatchers".
Chances are, it's just one person with a fake partner.
I'm just a guy like you..
I'd also prefer abolishing HW - it's not a new discussion
but I am against those newly wanting to abolish it since only a few days, cuz their farming sheme got busted by HW
Hi @niallon11
It would be probably better to check up on the actual proposal and discover a bit about the HW's actual activity. It is 290/day not 350/day.
For the marketing campaign, there is already a proposal running called "Value Plan".
https://hivel.ink/valueplan/@valueplan/q3-value-plan-proposal
If you have marketing ideas, you are welcome to forward them to @guityparties.
Regarding, themarkymark.
He has considered himself a Hive Blockchain martyr who has always done all the abuse fighting himself (that is limited to triggering his downvote bot on some accounts to auto-clear rewards on day 6) while no one else did any abuse fighting. At the same time, he has never done a single investigation on a single post to look for plagiarism, identity theft, etc.
He has been running the same tape "Steemcleaners/Hivewatchers do not deserve anything and I do all abuse fighting" since 2016. Our project/proposal is not the only one. He attacks all proposals. Maybe it's because he tried a proposal once and it never got a pass.
Since 2016, we have already explained in detail to him multiple times what tasks abuse fighting constitutes. The last time was in January.
Hi hivewatchers.
Regardless of $290 or $350 where is that funding going to and why would you need $105K per year to downvote a few posts???
I've reread your proposal and it's vague. Without clear guidelines, instructions or help for people wanting to deal with your team. The website has not been developed and overall it's a small group of people exerting control over the community as it sees fit often to the detriment of that same community.
Where is the breakdown of these costs.
Why is there no clear list of infringements and related penalties.
Why is there no proper structure for reporting, disputing and process.
Where is the breakdown of value saved for the community as you claim.
Where is the cost of all the decent users that have been driven away by your downvotes.
Just zeroing rewards from users is not helping the platform or it's community.
We only have about 5000 active bloggers so these costs are absurd and this set up is not working for the majority of the community. The only reason that it has funding is due to @smooth and @blocktrades voting it.
I don't care about themarkymark. I'm not a huge fan of his. He has done both good and bad for hive but i agree with him on this current topic and have never been afraid to speak my mind. It's not my first year on hive and i've seen the damage that flagging has done over those years setting us back years in terms of user growth and retention.
This is false. There are many other voters. If I unvoted it, for example, it would still be funded (which would not be the case if @blocktrades were the only remaining vote).
Furthermore, if either or both of us changed our vote, there is no way to know how other stakeholders might respond by also changing their votes, potentially changing the outcome yet again.
Your conception of how DHF voting works is a bit off.
You are falsely denying you and blocktrades have controlling stake, just as BlackRock does of corporations, without have the majority of stake.
Suckups pander to you whales. Quit being disingenuous.
Firstly, good to see you still around. Been a long time since i saw your name pop up in a comment section.
Fair enough. Your 6m (inc proxy) wouldn't drop it below the return proposal.
I do know how it works and i did say due to you both supporting it.
But blocktrades 23M and your 6M is roughly 80% of the support for the proposal from just two accounts. Not very reflective of community or decentralized.
Now i can't predict the outcomes but if you both stopped supporting it then it's hard to see the proposal getting over the return limit.
Wow "only" 290$.
For what?
Please answer it in my Post from yesterday, hope you read it and Answer the other Questions, too.
Here's a marketing idea: quit flagging our marketing team. Everyone that posts content here AND elsewhere draws eyeballs here. That's marketing.
Quit killing the golden goose.
You originally asked and got paid $350/day (blindly and immediately, even before you had a single comment on your proposal) until enough people made a stink about it and you reduced it to keep the gravy train going.
It's not exactly free at $350/day, though, is it?
Since 2017, when I joined the community, more than 1M accounts have joined and began posting and then been flagged off the platform. HW was not useful against the bidbots, but the community itself got rid of them when enabled to do so by tweaking DV code. Rather than fund an institution that can be - and obviously has been - corrupted to profit from attacking that ~1M users and censoring their speech on Hive, the community itself is competent to protect itself when availed the tools, as the demise of bidbots, that threatened to utterly overwhelm the platform at one point, reveals.
HW has become a tool of oppression, of censorship profiteering, and has proven the mechanism of funding is incapable of withstanding corruption and abuse. You cannot call the people of HW 'voluntary' when they're getting $350/day, which would be better spent to oppose censorship than cause it.
It is not factually correct to say the 'big community' does not care for itself. The reduction of the influence of the bidbots has proved the community does care for itself when armed to do so. The problem is that venal profiteers rise to power in a plutocracy, and Hive is a pure plutocracy in which several of the most egregious bidbotters have become entrenched in the oligarchy of top witnesses.
The solution is to fund @freezepeach and allow spam, scams, and plagiarists to be flagged by the community that has demonstrated it's willingness to do so when availed the tools in the code to do so. $350/day would go a long ways to ending opinion flagging that has cost us >1M users already, and created a stench of outrage against that injudicial censorship in the cryptosphere. That can be reversed, and free speech empowered, by coding proper tools for the community to protect itself, and funding @freezepeach to oppose opinion flagging - or Hive is doomed by it's prior (and present) flaggotry, because that reeking stench of censorship will not wash off.
I don't think Hive is doomed, because even the worst stench will wash away when time and the application of cleansing is applied, and people are suffering the censorship across the social mediascape more than ever. HW is the reason people keep trying to use web2 platforms, instead of flocking to Hive to be rewarded for speaking forthrightly. Social media has become the largest financial sector of the IRL markets in the world. Hive has been extremely poorly executed to perform so dismally in a market so obviously profitable and malevolently censored. We have a rhetorical foundation to directly reward creators for their forthright content that clearly has the ability to be extremely financially rewarding if executed properly, but instead has performed worse than the most oppressive Big Social platforms. It has performed worse than them by BEING worse than them for creators, and HW opinion flagging is what is worse.
Fund @freezepeach instead of HW, and allow the community to handle it's business censoring spam, scams, and plagiarism, as it has clearly proved it is capable of doing when it suppressed the bidbots. While there are still at least one bidbot in operation today, it is no longer a threat to the whole community, while HW has shown to be worse, and more insidious threat by crushing forthright speakers and causing them to abandon the platform. HW is so malignant that Fakebook and Twatter are better prospects, and that is a horrible fact of the misapplication of funds and code on Hive today.
you quote me talking about VOLUNTARY PEOPLE
NOT Hivewatchers
and then talk about the money Hivewatchers gets..
I am also much for funding @freezepeach
HW claims to be voluntary, just as you do, and just as Marky does.
I dunno who is in HW other than Guilty, and I am baffled why Guilty tolerates the opinion flagging HW executes. There must be a reason, but I am not going to speculate about his specific motivations, because I can't think of any potentially good ones and I don't want to falsely accuse anyone of bad actions.
There are scammers on social media platforms, and censorship is necessary to eliminate their profit motive. Censorship also works on spammers, and plagiarists. It also crushes ordinary people that post on Hive and don't do spam, scams, or plagiarism. DV's are censorship. That's why they work.
The censorship mechanism on Hive should not be applicable to opinions.
As for funding @freezepeach, @r0nd0n quit actively running it, and I know he is a busy and hardworking guy, so I can't fault him for it. He did the best he could for very little reward, and I admire him very much. However, @freezepeach isn't doing anything anymore, so I donate 1/4 of my author rewards to creators that are being censored for no good reason. You could do that too. If you don't know anyone that is being flagged without ceasing for their original content, I can give you a list. It evolves because most people just can't stay on it and quit posting to earn flags. The last creator that fell off that list is @baah, who reamed me a new one more often than he agreed with me, and I have no idea why he quit posting because I don't think he likes me very much and he doesn't keep me apprised of his reasons for doing things. But there are still folks posting against the constant pressure of censorship flags on every post and comment they make, and if just a few of us kicked them down 5% of our author rewards - which can't be flagged away - I think we could end the censorship ring that is suppressing free speech on Hive.
The censors do it for money, so they don't want to spend much censoring because that cuts into their profits. I am clearly not enough financial power to stop them, so more folks are necessary for the opposition to their opinion flagging to be successful. Regardless, I will continue to do it on principle, because that matters a whole lot more to me than a couple HBD.
Let me know if you want a list of folks that are being censored and should be supported with a cut of author rewards that can't be flagged away.
after you defending fascists that want to hunt me out of my country
and talking shit about me
I dont give a flying fuck
stuff it up ur ass
goodbye
I can understand that @baah did not like you
Yet I supported him because he posted factual information. That's the difference between you and him. While he ranted from time to time, he also produced valuable content.
you projecting piece of shit do not even talk with or against me
you talk about random stuff that has nothing to do with me
so shut the fuck up and leave me alone
you fucking idiots do not get that defending oneself if you do not leave others alone is the most fundamental right everyone has
stupid
I had 20 notifications this morning and 14 of them were of your rants pleading to be left alone. Maybe take your own advice?
Yeah, as if I had not 10 comments of your weird nonsense projections about Hivewatchers that HAS ZERO TO DO WITH ME
You brainless weird being
You could literally do nothing and be ahead by $270/day. They deal with less than $20/day of abuse yet they asked for $350/day.
so we need more decentralized flagging again
We need a lot of things, just people need to care.
People that are flagged for their forthright speech here are given nothing to care about. When fakebook and twatter are BETTER THAN HIVE for speaking objectionable opinions on, Hive has failed miserably to promote free speech.
Free speech is infinitely more valuable than money. Push it up. Pushing spam, scams, and plagiarism down isn't all we need to do. We need criticism, even if it's criticizing us, because that's how we can learn how to be better than we have been. Even if it's wrong, it isn't spam, scams, or plagiarism and deserves protection.
People care when they have a reason to care. If all they can get for posting is $.30, why should they care? Give forthright speech a reason to care.
THIS
yeah, so just abandoning anti-abuse and not more people joining anti-abuse efforts (not caring) wont bring us any further
I downvote more abuse than they do on a daily basis. There is a handful of other people doing some as well, but largely most people don't want to be involved or risk losing upvotes.
Maybe the code leaving potential abuse fighters vulnerable to opinion flags is the actual problem. People getting flagged for criticizing whales have a damn good reason not to criticize whales.
The code is the problem, because it allows opinion flagging. Not until the oligarchy cut a deal with Marky and Wolfie did the bidbots end (mostly), and that reveals the real problem is plutocracy, not whether people care. People flagged into penury can't afford to care.
HERE HERE
Of more concern to me is that the definition of abuse keeps expanding, while with each expansion they claim it was always in the definition and always part of their scope.
The more the definition of abuse is expanded, the more it gets into areas that should be up to broader consensus, not a centrally funded effort. And the more users and communities are alienated.
It is my opinion that the lost market value from decent people leaving Hive and selling out their holdings exceeds the 'saved' value from HW's abuse elimination by orders of magnitude.
The definition is whatever they feel like for the day. They refuse to do anything about the 100 accounts grampo farms with like cleangirl. Also remember they were one of the largest self vote abusers before they got their golden ticket by upvoting 60-90 comments a day for $1-2 each while downvoting people who did the same.
Hive Watchers had been already downvoting "cleangirl" account months before your "buildawhale" account started downvoting it.
The same with this group ("buildawhale started DV-ing a few of them):
alena-deryabina
alexwo
beardmen
cwoong
dasunkwo
estarda
flodareltih
fozzy
francuzzz
goshy
huanan
ien
imaran
immortal8000
iotman
logmen
pixelpenguin
qazaq
sobaken763
wekin
yarrik
Since we noticed that "buildawhale" started downvotuing some of them on day 6, we stopped downvoting those accounts downvoted by "buildawhale".
You mean, you stopped doing your job because you figured someone would do it for you for free while you still rake in the funds.
Guilty specifically said he won't downvote it because "it's a dapp", same with all the grampo accounts.
@guiltyparties
I was going to say hard to say with a deterrence effect, but then seeing 12 HBD being sent to them hourly ( https://peakd.com/@hivewatchers/wallet) from the hive fundation , with very little hive power, and then dumping it into a savings on a dummy account with $77k HBD (https://peakd.com/@nuttin/wallet ) I think it is obviously no at this point.
I think they can be self sustaining without needing to be subsidized further and the training wheels can be taken off. Assuming they own the nuttin account, and the apr is 20%, that's still 42 hbd a day. If they continue to get 290hbd a day and the 42 from interest, then this time next year, it could be 110 hbd a day in interest.
In closing:
1.) Much better case for delegating HP or RC to projects than giving hbd. The foundation gets to keep its resources, and the dev can still use the HP/RC as needed.
2.) I think the 20% apr is ridiculous myself; that it is a ticking time bomb.
I fail to see how. That barely keeps pace with inflation, IMHO. In fact, I don't think it does. Better minds than mine, to wit Edicted, have thoroughly detailed why 20% interest on HBD savings are not any kind of threat to Hive, and you could have a look at his catalog to see his posts about it.
However, I agree with the statements you make about HW. Frankly, as long as they're opinion flagging I reckon they're Hive's enemy that is preventing the price of Hive from mooning. Without free speech, Hive is without value whatsoever. Whales flagging creators for their opinions reeks worse than skunkwater, and we should be supporting the victims of that censorship as I do with donations that cannot be flagged away so that the censors give up.
I, and I'm sure you also, want Hive to be a better platform for free speech than fakebook or twatter, that egregiously censor. Hive isn't a better platform for free speech or it would eclipse those platforms, and the only reason it isn't is opinion flags like those HW flies on content creators that aren't spammers, scammers, or plagiarists.
That's what I like Hive. Everything is transparent and no one can hide their bad behavior
Except when they do stuff off chain, which bad actors with above room temperature IQ will do.
This is why HW uses Discord to arrange the humiliation ritual people have to endure to get off the blacklist. Bad actors do what bad actors do, and HW does this off chain so you can't see it.
If someone is policing the community it should be done by Germans. We have a lot of instinct for order and justice. Most likely the whole thing would get hijacked by some Austrian guy again tho...
LOL
Ordnung is not the basis for freedom, but rather Austrian jackboot fetishists. There does need to be order, but rather the order of the Goths than Romans. Freedom of speech has created the longest enduring societies the world has ever seen, starting millennia ago with the expansion of the Yamnaya that burst out of the steppes by inventing dairy and the economic advantage that provided.
Such invention is only facilitated by free speech, and demonstrates that it is free speech that is far more valuable than mere money.
Thanks!
Ordnung muss sein! :)
AHA
NOW WHAT
YOU NEED TO DECIDE
ARE YOU FOR FREE SPEECH
OR ARE YOU CONDEMNING ME FOR IT ?
stupid asshole
You mistake what condemns you. It isn't that you have free speech. It's that you are malevolent.
By your judgment you are judged. You will not find such vile insults in any of my posts or comments, so I do not merit condemnation. You condemn yourself.
Ja, setzt euch doch bitte auch mal mit für Anti-Abuse ein... (finanziell und zeitlich)
Sehe nur die Selben Leute, welche sich seit immer (sogar noch zu Steem Zeiten) für Anti-Abuse einsetzen.
Würdet ihr euch auch mal einsetze, von eurer freien Zeit und mit euren HP - dann bräuchten wir gar keine Hivewatchers extra zahlen (wir Anti-Abuse Leute haben auch so unsere Probleme mit denen seit Jahren, können es aber auch nicht ändern - sind halt zu wenige)
Ihr wollt Dezentralität jedoch nichts dafür machen, "Gewinne" (Müll Karten & Tokens) jedoch nicht mal für ordentliche Posts Mühe machen - macht sogar noch bei Spam/ jahrelangen Aussaugen der Plattform mit, anstatt sich mal selbst anzustrengen, auf Almosen Gewinne hoffen?
Und wäre es dem Denno wirklich um Unterstützung (also er unterstützt andere) gegangen, würde er sich nicht sofort verabschieden, nachdem nach JAHREN mal ein paar überbewertete "Rewards" ausfallen ^^^^
Er braucht doch keine Rewards um mit seiner HP zu unterstützen ? Hat doch bereits selbst genug bekommen.
Wird Zeit dass sich die Rewards wirklich auf mehr kleinere Accounts (wenn sie sich nun anstrengen, ihre Chance sehen statt rumzuheulen) aufteilen.
Beim Thema Almosen solltest du ganz leise sein. Ich hab dir mal 10 HBD geschickt als ich einen Post von dir gelesen hab in dem du um Geld gebeten hast, obwohl ich dich damals so wie jetzt kaum kenne/kannte. Als nächsten Post durfte ich dann eine Beschwerde lesen, dass zu wenig Leute gespendet haben.
wie wäre es, alle selbstvotes, alle curation trails und alles was zum betrug nutzbar ist ab zu schaffen? dann bleibt schon mal nur noch spam und doppelaccounts! aber wer entscheidet was spam ist? ein gewinnspiel was täglich läuft, ist kein spam. wenn es anderen usern spaß macht daran teil zu nehmen und sie freiwillig voten, ist es doch genau das, was hier gefördert werden sollte . wenn der user die votes dazu nutzt, anderen zu helfen, was man ja ganz einfach nachvollziehen kann, so nutzt er weder etwas zum eigenen vorteil, noch betrügt. punkt! und noch etwas. wer beleidigt, anstatt sachlich zu diskutieren, ist immer im unrecht ;-) hier hat sich nämlich langsam eine moralpolizei entwickelt, die entgegen der community handelt, denn wenn ein paar wenige entscheiden, was richtig und falsch ist, dann sind wir beim kommunismus angelangt.
erkläre mir, wo der unterschied bei mir liegt. ob ich auf youtube, oder twitch, oder dlive, oder vimm meinen stream veröffentliche und beim dem "beitrag" user freiwillig voten können. warum wird mir dann eigennutz vorgeworden, obwohl ich noch nie einen cent aus hive abgehoben habe und zumindest per fanbase täglich mehrere votes an andere verteile... wieso kann einer darüber entscheiden, dass das unrecht ist und alles auf 0 voten? wieso muss ich auf seinen willen hin bei anderen kommentieren, obwohl ich das überhaupt nicht möchte, da ich lieber mit usern im stream rede! mit welchem recht? und seine letzten worte waren, ihm gefällt mein content nicht... mir gefällt seiner auch nicht, deswegen vote ich aber niht auf 0 unabhängig davon, dass ich das aufgrund meines accounts ja auch nicht kann. das ist nichts anderes als meinungsdiktatur und machtausspielung.
Yes, why don't you join us in the effort for anti-abuse... (financially and in terms of time)
I only see the same people who have always (even in Steem times) contributed to anti-abuse.
If you would also use your free time and your HP - then we wouldn't have to pay extra for hivewatchers (we anti-abuse people have also had our problems with them for years, but we can't change it either - there are just too few of us -> so a need for hivewatchers).
You don't want to do anything for decentralisation, but you don't even want to make an effort for proper posts - you even participate in spam/years of sucking the platform dry instead of making an effort yourselves, hoping for little crap "wins"?
And if Denno was really interested in support (i.e. he supports others), he wouldn't immediately say goodbye after a few overvalued "rewards" are cancelled after YEARS ^^^^
He doesn't need rewards to support others with his HP? He's already got enough himself.
It's about time that the rewards are really distributed to more smaller accounts (if they make an effort and see their chance instead of whining now).
well you critized something else so let me respond to that.
I dont mind organisation. I think well organising something and giving people a payment or reward for their effort is not a bad thing. Organsiation is not in conflict with decentralisation and not even anarchism itself - at least not on a principle level.
Im also not against the Wild West solution, where everybody flags and even common folks downvote stuff they think is overrated/overpayed. I would make a morning routine out of downvoting 90% of the trending page and I would have a jolly time doing so. Even though I actually think this would be the best solution Im surely not the one who will try to make it trend.
I already "voted" here ...
https://peakd.com/hive-174122/@roleerob/end-of-the-road-for-roleerob
... with my "feet" ... 👋
Community will weed out naturally to keep a happy, healthy system.
Bad elements always arrive to scam or try skim profits on the sly.
It is clear that exactly such elements have arisen to take advantage of the funding availed HW, and are harming the Hive community profitably. Wherever governance is undertaken, such malign actors seek to gain whatever power and wealth is expended for their own aggrandizement, not just on Hive, but everywhere and always.
HW needs to go. It is demonstrable that just replacing bad apples will not make the barrel rotten apple proof. As long as there's an apple barrel, rotten apples will lie and cheat to spoil it. I'm confident that backdoor deals are passing funds unseen to advance goals of bad actors, and the visible financial expenditures for HW are but part of the actual sums involved, as graft is a constant hazard of corruptible institutions.
Better for the community and it's rightful forthright expression of it's concerns and exposure of hazards we need to be informed of would be a mechanism to support posts and posters that are wrongfully flagged, IMHO. Profiteers gain no benefit from strengthening the community against such Mammon Hunters, but rather from institutions like HW that attack the community and prey on our number. We should cut them off and stop funding attacks on us, and instead fund armor against their attacks on us that profiteering plutocrats constantly seek to profitably employ to take our wealth for themselves.
When observing actual hives in nature, there are no bees running around destroying the comb and taking the honey. The hive builds the comb, and the honey provides for their entire community. That is the kind of work that should be funded, not destruction of free speech, but protection of it.
Using bots is always destructive, connect to each person it's social media.
I completely agree. I do not and never have autovoted, or used bots to follow trails, or post comments. This is social media, and people are society. People need to be interacting with people here.
That's the actual point.
Tested in Steem did not like, dumped almost immediately, yes actual contact is more meaningful. Real life in person even better !LOLZ
I think that system is too automated. I see too many cases of a person doing one sketchy thing and then get rewarded with a lifetime of downvotes, even months after having changed their act. I really don't feel that the cost to the DHF is in proportion to the benefits delivered.
I've seen and heard of enough cases where non-abusive behavior or simple mistakes were crushed by HW, especially for new accounts, to vote NO on this poll.
Absolutely no. We saw to many times their poor decisions and false alarms making great people leaving Hive for good.
🤔 😂😂😂🤣🤣 please just stay away and don't comment on my post's talking shit it's not going to work I'm not a kid I'm a grown man with kid's tell Ab Steve Gina and blocktrades I said hello 👋🏾
Would be interesting, what the wittnesses have to say to all this.
Is there a statement anywhere?
According to 'Citizens United', money is speech.
There's your answers.
Thanks!
So Hive is just a mirror of the world outside.
Or even more extreme here: Money/HivePower rules.
But, we can code it how we want it. We don't have to replicate plutocracy. If we make Hive right, we will remake IRL, too. Change is afoot, and the world is evolving economically. We can take the bull by the horns, or do what we're doing, which is getting gored.
We? Who is we?
All the users or the few with fat HivePower?
1000 Users with 0,001 HP against on with 5,000 HP?
Who decides what is coded?
This is a matter I have struggled with for a long time. Before @ned did us dirty he gave several talks on how to use oracles and 1a1v to eliminate bots, which greatly encouraged me at the time. There are several identity mechanisms that have been proposed claiming to be able to prove an account is run by a single human being, to identify that single human such that they cannot have multiple accounts, and as far as 1a1v on Hive, I am not willing to limit such democratic voting by any other metric than that.
I particularly find plutocracy vexing, despite knowing that merely having money doesn't establish one is a vile thief (I only know this because I have good friends that are less poor than me). There are too many examples of highly staked persons with execrable moral and ethical standards, insert your favorite villains here. However, in fact folks with substantial stake have a lot of capability to impact matters, and obvious reasons to be extremely dedicated to ensuring things aren't off the chain - or, conversely, to skew things in their favor. It seems then that folks with substantial stake have more basis for influencing matters than me, who has little stake to risk.
This is true even in non-monetary economies, such as the Potlatch economies of the PNW natives in which a chief is availed the authority to parcel out resources to the tribe. I can but console myself that I cannot be expected to answer your question definitively, but that doesn't resolve the matter either.
I was addressing exactly this issue years ago with one of the witnesses, and was told that such identifying function was either not doable or could be tricked, as well. I am not sure any more what exactly was said but the overall message was "no".
Is Hive a dead horse and you should change it quickly?
https://peakd.com/hive-127788/@julianhorack/life-after-hive-the-junk-that-washes-up-as-the-sol-rises-on-my-beautiful-beach
I am not holding out much hope, TBQH. However I get what I came here for every time I come here, which is forthright speech from people that I can learn from. I didn't come here for money. I came here for free speech. That hasn't been completely eradicated here, yet.
I hope there is a future, but we will see.
But here are some users that only want free speech when it is their own opinion.
Saying anything doesn't work in 'their' favor.
Taking a position might cost 'them' politically.
'They' also think of us as 'them'.
This kind of thinking doesn't help.
There is less butter on 'our' side of the bread.
For now.
'They' should be expected to act as expected, by the one with the most butter.
Crapitalism makes 'us' 'all' whores.
Living under the bridge is not all that attractive when you can sell something as cheap as your soul.
Sell something as cheap as your soul? LoL
/S
¿/S?
eerm... Did you wanted to say...
Sorry, sarcasm.
Hahaha, don't worry mate. You know I get you. We are soulmates!
The funding serves no purpose except making those involved receive high stakes for very little contribution and minimal investment.
so we revive a good decentralized anti-abuse system ?
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Hey Steemcleaners, why are you flagging this comment? You have been flagging this author for YEARS, despite he posts original content DAILY.
You, Steemcleaners, are the problem that has kept Hive from outcompeting Fakebook and Twatter by rewarding content creators such as @por500bolos, because you chase them off the platform.
Knock it off. You're censors. Thought police.
You are the problem Hive needs to solve.
That account is just what HW uses when they don't have a justified reason to downvote anything.
It pays to have idiots delegate and die off somewhere so they get to keep the free stake. But, don't you dare ask for delegations expiring like the way witness votes do.
Finally. It took years to get that.
I do not autovote, delegate my stake, or in any way fail to personally exercise my contributions to the community. If this is a social media platform, society - us - needs to be interacting, not bots. That being said, I still get autovotes from my good friends that have died. I would rather get belittled and scathingly criticized by @stevescoins than autovoted though. I miss him.
Automation needs to be on timers, and some provision needs to be made so that people's assets can be delivered to their heirs upon their demise. I have to confess that I am touched every time I review my upvotes and see my friend there. It's weird how automation is impacting our interactions nowadays. Delegations certainly need to expire. You're absolutely right.
LOL
That's a masterful video. I quite enjoyed it.
Opinion flagging is the enemy.
Edit: also, I miss @dwinblood's posts. I wish there were more of them.
Hah. I'll get around to it again. Have some family medical things going on. I will post again though.
All my best to you and yours.
Thanks!
No, that is a total waste. Hivewatchers are the boil of the platform. Instead of punishing their users, take the money and distribute it to really good contributions and ideas that also advance the platform.
Not worth a single cent.
Unfund it
Having centralized anti-abuse is not all bad, imo.
The question becomes is it profitable, both for the chain to redistribute it and the abusers.
Clearly the abusers are getting what they need, or they wouldn't do it.
So, now the question is how much total abuse is happening.
I got no problem financing some anti-abuse efforts but the the big picture is not being adequately illustrated.
How much abuse is happening outside trending?
Nobody can do anything about that abuse, at this point.
I don't think tying hw's compensation to the amount of redistribution is a good idea, and if the amount of abuse doesn't rise to the costs involved with centralized overhead, then some median would have to be arrived at by 'the community'.
Or, the plutocracy can decree whatever because they hodl the power.
That has 'worked' up to now because 'the community' has failed to reach an organizational power level adequate to change things.
I'd say if you don't like how hw's is doing it, then offer a viable alternative.
Until the community is ready to step up, organize, and replace the good that hw's does, I'd vote for keeping them.
Until 'the community' is ready to step up and stop the trending abuse, this is what we get, continued centralization of power.
The Hive code needs to value free speech above all else, and deprecate mere financial concerns. Most of all, it needs to not be a pure plutocracy, because IRL is proof of how that turns out.
best comment
Thank you.
I made another one.
@jarvie @asgarth can we get subscriptions to posts, ie allow notifications of comments by others on posts we opt to follow?
It's too easy to forget to come back two days later to see what other comments have come in, let alone comments that come in much later.
This feature would increase engagement, imo.
you can bookmark comments :)
Ich steh wohl inzwischen auch schon auf einer dieser #Blacklist der @hivewatchers
I do think that those who are getting proposal funding need to be accountable and justify what they get. There is no breakdown here. Hosting a site and some services will not be that expensive, but if people are working full time on this then they may expect to be paid. The proposal implies that they get something for their time.
I have seen so many complaints about HW, but then most people will not take any action against abuse. I think it would be much worse without HW or something similar. They have to be fair in how they treat people. We will get lots of people desperate to make money who get bad advice on how to do it here. I would rather see them guided to better behaviour than driven away as that leads to them spreading bad vibes. There are cases of organised abuse that can be tricky to track down. If we had a massive influx of users then things could quickly ramp up.
I've been involved in some other anti-abuse, but it can lead to threats and so most people stay anonymous. I have talked to HW people and they are not the power-crazed monsters that some portray them as. I can understand if they get stressed out. I know there are plenty of feuds between various Hivers that get pretty heated.
There is obvious an image problem with HW and we need to find compromises to improve that. The proposal funding needs to go where it does the most good, but that is really determined by the largest accounts. We have to find the right balance so that Hive can actually grow. Driving away new users can harm us all and the whales have the most to lose.
All too true, and happened literally a million times already.
I have seen some screenshots from their discord that suggest otherwise. Absolutely reprehensible behaviour towards people that seek off the blacklist, and concede they will reform their ways.
Personally, I reckon they should conduct their business on chain, and not on discord. Hive business is not discord's, and discord is a malevolent surveillance device, and HW business should be on chain where everyone can see how they treat folks.
It's not just an image. They opinion flag. It's utterly contrary to the purpose of Hive. They don't need to compromise. They need to quit censoring free speech and stick to their baileywick of censoring spam, scams, and plagiarism. They also should not be profiteering by self voting with funds from Hive. That's just scammy.
There are some nasty people around here, but also a lot who really care about Hive. Some will use their power to attack others. I just think that it's not as black and white as some make out.
The main reason the proposal was raised like 300% was for a dev to redo their site, which as far as I have seen hasn't been done and it still doesn't even work. Their site is stupid simple too. Doesn't require $350/day, nor does fighting less than $20/day in abuse.
Yeah, the site has not changed in ages and is not great. As I understand it proposals are a binary thing so they either get the requested funding or not. Maybe they should have separate ones for running costs and for new developments.
Does this also apply to their compatriot service called steemcleaners?
The both of these accounts continue their harassment without any explanation.
I can't speak for them as I don't see what they do.
What is going on here?
The next user is blacklisted by @hivewachters :
https://peakd.com/hive-121566/@starthilfe/1184-diese-beitraege-brauchen-eure#@hivewatchers/sdd84s
Why are those users mentioned: @solominer @fw206 @newhope?
steht doch da.
Und was ist mit den anderen 80 Usern die einen Upvote gemacht haben?
Pustekuchen?
Vetternwirtschaft?
weißt du was dPOS ist und wie das Dezentralisierungs-Modell hier konzipiert ist ?
Geld regiert die Welt, auch hier bei #Hive.
Was bewirken schon 100 Upvotes mit 0,001 HP gegen einen Upvote mit 5, 6 oder 10 HP. Hier ist es eben die Hivepower, die Macht verleiht. Sieht jeder an seinen Postings und Upvotes. Und die großen Fische interessieren sich wohl nicht so sehr dafür, was die @hivewatchers so machen, bzw. nicht machen.
Ja, Sozialismus haben wir hier auf jeden Fall nicht.
Zum Glück.
Geld ist übrigens auch nicht böse, vor allem nicht wenn es nicht mehr ein Monopol von unseren Erzfeinden gibt, diese es nicht mehr willkürlich für Krieg inflationieren können und es vor allem einen Wettbewerb für das beste Geld gibt.
Wünsche dir alles Beste. Viel Erfolg beim Lernen.
Hivewatchers ist schon lange ein Problem. Doch die Community interessiert sich eben nicht dafür sich selbst für besseren Anti-Abuse einzusetzen.
Einfach nur jeden Anti-Abuse abzuschaffen und sich weiterhin um nichts kümmern (wie ihr alle es hier scheinbar wollt) wäre der sofortige Tod der Plattform (willkommen Scammer, bye Hive)
They want to control the bad behaviors on Hive. Is there anyone controls the bad behaviors from Hive watchers?
Funny thing, before they got their funding they were abusing more than anyone else self voting 60-90 comments a day for $1-2 while flagging others for doing the same thing for a couple cents.
Whats the alternative? At least they are doing something x)
You and a few other big accounts, are fighting anti-abuse, but not a lot is :/
Doing nothing would actually save us $270/day as they are paid more than 10x the abuse they deal with.
Touché
The alternative is you start using that downvote mana of yours.
It seems that I am doing that daily :)
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BEER.Is Hive Watcher's doing a good job?
"Total waste of money. They drive away good users in their pursuit of policing.
Badly operated. Bad communication. Terrible people skills. Total waste of money."
Not sure! But Hive Watchers are doing great to keep HIVE safe and secure from spammers and scammers ;)
There isn't enough information to vote on this poll. At face value, it's not worth it. However, how much abuse would the platform suffer if they didn't do their "job"? That is the real question. Can this even be quantified?
An issue that I have with the proposal from @hivewatchers is that it does not break down the costs. How much is spent on its infrastructure, labor, etc? I would like to see specifics.
They stop less than $20 of abuse a day yet get paid $290/day and asked for $350/day. It can be quantified quite well.
I get that. In my opinion, we cannot quantify the amount of "abuse" that would happen on top of what already does. The current cost/benefit is not worth it if your numbers are accurate.
For me it is now the case that not only new posts get a downvote, but also all of my comments that I get votes on. where is that still fair?
I think there is enough room for Hivewatchers to improve their proccess and better explaining to us how and why they do their thing.
I've been always against downvoting, mainly to prevent wars between users. I do agree that hivewatchers uses downvoting as a tool to clean the space, nothing more, nothing less.
I would like to see more info on how they distribute funding.
As I said above, more dialog witth community would enlighten people's view.
This is only my onw personal opinion.
Cheers
the only reason im on hive is to stream. but one dude doesnt like my videos so he is flagging them since 1.5 years. im not here for writing stupid things or post one picture from a tree. But im not allowed to do what i want and like. instead one guy uses his power to dictate what i have to do.... it's like communism here
Just feed the pointless SPAMINATOR TROLL & then the Whales are happy earning more HIVE 🤠
Nothing will change, as nobody cares! LOL 🤡
^^
They have no reasons to care, because there are no rewards for objectionable speech. Instead the Hive code creates a plutocracy by curation rewards enabling circle jerks.
Hive could create proper incentives by properly valuing free speech. Social media is the largest financial sector in the world, and it has only arisen in the last decade or so. Clearly Hive could be coded to properly take advantage of this, however, the oligarchy prefers to maintain their fangs buried into our life's blood and their power to rule the little pond.
Either Hive will revise it's code to value free speech above all else, or someone else will.
Thanks!
@thedrummerboy
Dann klick doch oben in der Abstimmung noch auf "No". ;)
Würde mich auch wundern wenn das einer mit Verstand macht. Die Truppe hasst jeder außer sie sich selber, sie sind ihre größten Fans. 😜
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