A few weeks ago I was writing about countries being language agnostic and last night I was discussing it with a couple friends who were visiting us for dinner. One of them is very much pro Finnish culture and while we were talking about integration of foreigners, they mentioned that they don't believe people can integrate without learning the language. And while I agree to an extent, I do not believe that language is quickly becoming becoming irrelevant as technology is able to translate from any language into any language on the fly in real time.
Communication still matters.
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However, while we were discussing this, my friend said that it means that Finnish culture, Finnish poetry and literature and music, becomes irrelevant and I replied that yes, this is the case. But, all culture that relies on language to separate it becomes increasingly irrelevant, everywhere. And this saddened them, because it means that diversity narrows and everything becomes a beige mush.
Yep.
This is the problem with homogenization of thought and ideas, but as I discussed with her, this has already been happening through technology anyway, where people are consuming from the same pool of content globally, driven by the algorithms designed to maximise attention and the profit it brings. And the content isn't designed to inspire thought and action, it is designed to keep attention fixed on the screen.
A homogeneous language group is able to communicate effectively between each other. But, what people often don't consider that a homogenous group is also able to be influenced and controlled more efficiently. The more the data collectors are able to influence people into larger and larger groups, the more they are able to influence and push an agenda. For an example from a few years ago, Squid Game became an almost overnight sensation with hundreds of millions of views, even though it was in Korean. Netflix and their marketing team, were able to get the message out through multiple channels and people jumped on the bandwagon.
I like reading Shakespeare occasionally because I believe that it holds a huge amount of wisdom, even though fictional. I even wrote a little about it once upon a time. Damn - that was over eight years ago. Yet, even though I have read a bit, watching a Shakespearean movie is very difficult because even though I can follow it, it is too fast for me to process the true meaning of what is being said fast enough. The wisdom is lost, because the nuance is lost.
My argument for my friend who was talking about needing to learn Finnish to integrate and understand the culture is, how well would a person need to actually speak Finnish to understand the depth of nuance? There are very, very few foreigners in Finland who speak Finnish well enough to get all that meaning, even though they can do everything else they need to practically do in Finnish at work and personally. And it is likely the same for most languages. Yet, does that mean they can't understand the culture?
I don't think so.
Because culture isn't as much in the language as it is in the behaviours of a group, and those behaviours are observable, even without knowing the language. In fact, I would say the majority of cultural value doesn't lay in the language itself, but in the way people behave. So, that means that as long as there is interactive communication, most of what is valuable can be learned, without speaking a word of the same language. Some will be lost in translation of course, but is it that vital to have it all, considering that even a group of Finns don't all hold the same cultural knowledge, just because they are all Finnish.
I think it is unfortunate in many ways the culture is homogenising so rapidly, because a lot of what is valuable locally is being dropped to consume globally. Skills that bring people together as a community at the local level are degrading, even if personal skills are increasing. As a result, there is less interaction between the people who are in physical proximity, and that interaction tends to be of a lower quality, based on need. Yet even with this, people are increasingly able to avoid interacting with people at all, having everything delivered to their door, so they didn't even have to speak to a human.
There is a certain inevitability to the death of much of what we cling onto of our cultures now, but the fact is that most people don't actually care that much about their own cultural history, except for when it suits them. Most people don't sit down and read poetry from their national poets, or learn to play traditional instruments, or wear the traditional dress. Instead, they only invoke "culture" when they feel threated in some way personally, or want to punish someone they don't like.
Selective culturalists.
We pick and choose which bits of our culture we want to acknowledge and identify with, omitting all the shitty bits when it suits us, and claiming them back when it suits us. We defend our culture on the points we consider good, but fail to mention all the other things we want to hide. And if those things are brought up, they are then positioned as outlier parts of the group, not a true representation of the culture.
What percentage of belief or behaviour is required by the group in order for it to be considered a cultural norm?
Does that count as part of the culture in Finland?
I am guessing not many Finns want to claim it as a part of their culture they are desperate to hold onto. In my experience, none want to even acknowledge it openly - I have asked many. I don't shy away from difficult discussions and I am open to having my beliefs challenged too - because I don't care about my culture. I am more pragmatic than that and want to improve my behaviours, not hold onto what isn't working.
Lots of culture should die.
If you hate a group of people because of your upbringing or cultural environment, you are an idiot. Literally an idiot. You are ignorant, because you are basing you opinion on the conditioning of others, without testing if it is true or not. Similarly, if you are basing your opinion on a single interaction, you too are an ignorant idiot, because the sample size isn't large enough to make an inference.
We should all question our culture.
But instead, we lay claims to general feelings about what our culture is, and that of other people, and act on that generalisation as if it is the truth. Our truth. But is our belief of our culture our culture, or is it how we behave?
Taraz
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You left your cork hat at home then?
Might be because I'm partial to Amy Acker, but I really enjoyed this version of Much ado about nothing
I like her too, though I haven't watched that one.
I would love to see the same study done from the masculine perspective. It's just equality :)
I know I was one of those people talking about the preservation of language and culture - but since we last had that conversation, I think that some elements of some cultures (yes, I'm being selective) - don't "Add value" - but that is probably not the point.
When humanity, regardless of its culture, cannot unite for a common cause (let's use rising sea levels, the consequences of human use of carbon emitting devices, and a reliance on other things that aren't necessarily good for us to tie together the social fabric - coffee, alcohol, violence) - we become divided.
Yet we have the same struggles. We have the same calorific and nutritional needs. Our hierarchy of needs is the same no matter how our tongues and throats and lungs shape the emission of air from our mouths.
Maybe we should have these cultural boundaries until everyone can have some sort of humanity-citizenship test, as opposed to ones that are lines on a map, or a book with some pages on it and a logo. I couldn't care about who did this, or did that in the past history of a nation in order to have the "right" to live there, just because I wasn't born there.
I'd much rather have the "right" to live somewhere other than where I was born based on the positive things I can bring to the community I seek to contribute to - because - guess what, at the end of the day, we all create a burden - a need for nutrition, a need for sewer, and a need for water, power, and the other modern conveniences that we have.
There are probably a few out there. This was just one that I have discussed with people over time. :)
Yes. So we should probably spend more energy on the massive overlapping base that we still struggle with, than on the edge cases that are irrelevant for our core.
And because of the burden we create on the "world" (all the different aspects, we should be held accountable for the value we bring to the world, what we improve, how we engage, and whether we add more to society than take away.
I never watched Squid Game. I am not sure I have much desire to watch it. I like reading Shakespeare as well. I used to have the complete works somewhere. It was nicely bound book that a young lady who was once a close friend got for me. I feel like you have done a really good job of introducing the Finnish culture to me even though you don't speak the language. I think Greek is a good example of how there are nuances to the words and only a handful of people actually recognize and appreciate them these days.
Me either. I might watch it one day, but am not interested at all. I don't jump on bandwagons. :)
What I find interesting about looking at culture from behaviour rather than language, is that what many people "say" their culture is, doesn't align with what they actually do culturally. Culture isn't opinion, it is behavioural.
Yeah, that is a good point. There are likely many facets to culture and people pick and choose the pieces they align with whether it is accurate or not.
And this is the problem with defending culture.
There are lot here in the US who believe in a fictional cultural homogeneity despite our short and diverse history in comparison to European and Asian cultures.
These folks are among the xenophobic anti-immigrant faction of MAGA, and are very good at couching their prejudice as a defense of these alleged "American values," but fail to explain why our culture is really endangered by people seeking more economic and personal freedom. They co flare the recipients of government largesse with the cause of government extortion, externalizing the blame.
I understand the concern of cultural dilution, but history shows us culture is not static, languages evolve, and culture is far from concrete. We must choose what to preserve, what to adapt, and what deserves to be abandoned. It's uncomfortable, but growth isn't easy, and change is rarely fun.
And this is what it comes down to. If culture was a fridge, you'd throw out the mouldy inedible foods, and fill it with what provides sustenance, right?
A while back, memes were circulating on web2 reminding us that tradition is just peer pressure from dead people. I'd never advocate discarding objects, ideas, or traditions just because they are good any more than I cheer for embracing whatever new replacements are proposed. Neither antiquity nor novelty has intrinsic value on its own.
I agree that culture is all encompassing, it is more about how people behave rather than just the language they speak. While learning a language can help with deeper understanding, technology has made communication easier, so language is no longer the biggest barrier. It is even obvious in the movie we watch, like you said about Korean. I particularly watch their movie.
Sadly, as the world becomes more connected, local traditions and unique cultural practices are slowly fading. Many people only talk about culture when they feel threatened or want to make a point, but they don’t actually practice or value it in their daily lives.
It’s true that some parts of culture are worth letting go, especially those that promote hate or division. In the end, questioning our own culture and actions is important for growth.
In some ways this is sad, and in other ways, it is brilliant. The sad part is that some parts of culture that are useful or beautiful are lost. The brilliance is that other parts that are harmful can be rooted out and destroyed.
In some places they would culturally bind the feet of girls to keep their feet small, or cut off the clitoris of a woman so she can't feel pleasure. What kind of culture mutilates humans for no good reason? What kind of cultural practice is it to preach hate and violence?
Ui, this is an interesting one, as I strongly disagree on a few parts.
First - language is upmost important to understand a culture. It is an expression of the culture itself, there's a good reason that many words are not translatable and are taken into other languages just as they are - because the other culture has no feeling for this specific experience described. Yes, you can learn many things about a culture observing, but you can only be part of the culture, really experimenting it, learning the language. The language is the first step (saying a few words on the market buying veggies), and it is the path into deeper understanding (if wished so).
And yes, as a foreigner, we have to learn history, music, poetry and such in order to understand the culture, to get a better hold of it. The natives don't have to. They grew up within the culture, it's intrinsic, they don't have to analyze expressions of feelings typical for their culture in order to learn about it. They sucked it up from the beginning. A really awesome poem might not even be that awesome to them, as it's normal. They don't have to understand it to understand the culture, they live it. Although I think that everyone should, if they want to use it as an argument.
The rest, I agree. Using culture as an argument against foreigners is not my favorite, but it's very common as it's easy, and superficial. Most people have no clue, really, what their culture is, what their values are. If you mention the good, mention the bad. Everyone knows that there's always something to work on - that doesn't invalidate the good, not at all, it's the progress on the bad that validates the good.
I do care a lot about culture. But mostly about the culture that I pass on. My culture, what I personally took from what has shaped me, what I added to it, what I shaved off it. My personal set of values and believes, based on how I was raised within that original culture of mine, altered by my experiences, what I believe to be worthy to represent and to pass on.
I live by a rule. "The word is not the thing". Sweet isn't a flavour, it is a word. Sugar tastes sweet, it is our senses that interpret it. Our behaviours. Naming something and having the same word for it, doesn't mean we actually have the same experience. In this way, the culture through words is an assumption that understanding of experience is the same. Isn't that damaging? You are assuming because we use the same word, we feel the same about the experience.
If the nature of culture is intrinsic, I would challenge the majority of twenty year old Finns to a test on the culture derived from their history, their literature, poetry. When they are spending their time living in a digital world of whatever they do, what do they know? Do you think people are born with local culture?
And this is why all culture dies. All of it eventually gets shaved off.
No, the opposite. I assume that we use the same word, but have different understanding of it. Superficially learning a language is not enough, hence the argument of non-translatable words. When we just translate in our head, we don't get a deeper understanding. As cultural foreigners, we need the other aspects such as poetry to understand the predominant culture of the area we live in. If we want to be a real part of the community that is.
No, they're raised by local culture. The digital aspect is valid, and has some influence and will have more influence but by bit, unfortunately. Some could say the culture is infused by indoctrination. And yes, they would probably do pretty good on those tests. Not in the specific "what does that line mean"? Part, but other things like idioms, symbolism and such, that we first have to learn, but they grew up with.
No, not all. The core remains the same, the core values. The behavior around those values is what changes. In my case, I tried to be more coherent with my values. In other cases, people become more incoherent with their values (the Neonazis you describe for example).
I don't think that culture is just that one thing, fix and unwavering. It's more like the planet earth. The superficie changes, even the tectonics float around, but the core remains for a long time, without addition nor substraction.
I like the "good" parts of most cultures that I'm aware of (I tendto conflate a lot and obviously what's "good" is subjective, it's mostly based around food and language in my case, I should have been a linguist, and there are some festivals and traditions that are nice) and there are some bits that I think should definitely be consigned to history.
I'm kind of very anti-homogenisation for pretty much the reasons you cited and also irrationally anti imperialism and colonialism so I could only accept a conlang as an auxiliary.
The "common tongue" in fantasy books.
But it is interesting to think that it might not matter what people speak, it will all be translated into what is common for the listener.
That common tongue seems to be English right now which I hate (and would have hated equally if it was any other natlang, and it also is likely to be different in other areas, it's just how it appears from where I'm standing and I am kinda short).
That's how it rolls in my head universe although apparently even they (or at least the characters I've encountered) find it easier to just learn whatever is being spoken if they're spending a decent amount of time in the area XD
Learning language isn't for everyone it seems. Some really are much, much better at it than others. It is similar to math or music I guess.
Yeh it's one of those things that anyone (bar physical/mental shenanigans) can do and not everyone can be good at (but hard work will beat lazy talent any day and hard working talent is kind of at unfair advantages XD) and probably a lot of people are put off by the sheer volume of effort it takes to be mediocre.
all I kept thinking.. I bought these Chinese smart glasses that is supposed to translate 100+ languages on the fly. :)
Have you used them?
no, they're still in transit. I will surely post about em after I try em out later. :)
btw. they cost me $40 vs $300 for USA brands..
I agree that people are easier to control if they share the same communication medium but the best way to fix that is not by using several communication avenues but by enlightening the people so they can understand and resist manipulation. Enlightenment and not the usage of multiple languages is the key to keeping manipulation at bay.
Do you think that enlightenment comes through word alone, or does it require experience?
That's right, it can come from experience, but it mustn't be first hand experiences. We can also learn from the experiences of others. So, yes, experience is important in enlightening people, not only first hand encounters but also those of other people.
As we move through this digital era, it is important to discover methods to maintain the uniqueness of each culture as well as welcoming global connections.
And the very act of doing this means that culture will inevitably shift and change, killing what was, and turning into what is.
I think, Mr. Tarazkp, that we are manipulable beings and in the end everything is business, even culture.Customs and customs change and we call it, the right thing.
Also the "right" thing can be a fashion and a business.
The "right thing" today, can quickly turn into the "wrong thing" tomorrow.
Exactly!..., because it is no longer "functional".
Technology has advanced so much that it's possible to communicate with someone we wouldn't normally communicate with through translation programs. However, something is still missing. Communication without tone of voice, facial expressions, and behaviors would be inadequate. The existence of thousands of cultures in the world is a wonderful thing. Every day, some of these cultures are slowly dying out. It's impossible to prevent this. It seems to me that in 200 years, cultural and linguistic diversity will gradually diminish.
This is behavioural, isn't it?
I think even faster. I reckon it would be a surprise if we haven't killed ourselves off in 200 years! :D
In one of your recent posts I said that I got facebook of a hot girl and we are suppose to have coffee together. Well it seems that this was not in the cards. Few days ago I sent her a message:
She has not responded so far(?). So she is either not interested or she is playing some stupid games. But if she is not interested why could she not just say so? Why would she give me her facebook and agree to go on a coffee date at all? But if she is playing/ testing something, that is annoying and will make me lose interest. So it is a lose - lose situation. At this point it almost seems that it would be better if she said ,,thanks but I have a boyfriend'' or ,, thanks but I am not interested...''. But then I asked if she was free she did not say anything like that...I think that girls minds are most bizarre puzzle on earth. All pieces are round and none of them fit together...
Because many people don't want to hurt other's feelings directly. It is easier to ignore.
Girls are not that complicated. Most men just aren't willing to learn the patterns of behaviour :)
Sometimes I begin to wonder if some cultural practices are still relevant to experience and practice in this modern world. It is a personal choice for me to choose if I want to practice such that doesn't seem necessary but then it becomes a challenge as people intend to give their own opinion that might not be relevant but to complicate issues.
Yep. I am noticing how culture is declining.
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Wow, this is another level of enlightenment you just unfold @tarazkp but what is really the issue when homogeneous language intertwined with modernism or is it the people's choice to adapt to modernism and gradually sideline their heritage and culture? Wow there's alot to learn in this master piece of information you shared, let me go through again. Thank you @tarazkp
Thank you.